Post-moderns & Evangelism

[Dr. Shane]

I thought I would start a new thread here as I had some questions and didn't want to sidetrack the thread in "Townhall".

• Are traditional evangelistic crusades ineffective with post-moderns?
• Can evangelistic crusades be taylored for post-moderns?
• How can the local church, as an organization, reach out to post-moderns?

[there buster]

Quote:

Are traditional evangelistic crusades ineffective with post-moderns?

Define "effective." Mike Ryan said that traditional methods reach only 3-4% of the total audience. That probably will decline with a postmodern audience.

How many 18-35yo who are otherwise unattached to the congregation attend evangelistic crusades now?

Quote:

Can evangelistic crusades be taylored for post-moderns?

I'm sure many will try. A recent series in Asia attempted something similar. The process revealed significant needs for change within the presenting entities.

Quote:

How can the local church, as an organization, reach out to post-moderns?

As an organization, the local church can barely accept postmoderns, if at all, right now. In my estimation, in most cases, new congregations will need to be established in order to retain these new generations.

[bevin]

Ed: Do you think that is that why the retention rate within SDA'ism for their own kids is so low right now?

/Bevin

[Dr. Shane]

In the hispanic community, no mass mailings or radio ads are done. The church typically will have a revival crusade for its own members six weeks before an evangelistic crusade. Members are told to choose five to ten friends or family members and pray for them each day for the next few weeks that they would come to the meetings. When the crusade is held, the only ones in attendence are the members and those friends and families invited by the members.

I have long been an advocate of this type of evangelism but always prefered it done in the fellowship hall with the members sitting at tables with those they invited.

I am not sure if that would better reach the post-moderns since a friendship would be established before they actually attend the crusade.

[Woody]

I don't feel that holding a "crusade" is very reflective of Christianity ... at least the Christianity that I know.

Many are turned away from such a term becuase it reminds them of the early abuses by the Christian Crusades of killing innocents.

Post Moderns of any race ... will Certainly be turned off.

[there buster]

Quote:

Ed: Do you think that is that why the retention rate within SDA'ism for their own kids is so low right now?

/Bevin: I'm not certain which-- or all three -- of Shane's questions/my answers you're referring to.

And this business of why retention rates are low, and have been low for a very long time, is something I have been studying since I started teaching in SDA schools in 1969.

There are a score of reasons why, but if I enumerate them here, 1)It might be considered off-topic, and 2)it will generate an enormous amount of heat--though probably NOT from you.

I'm willing to discuss it, but be prepared for a storm.

In my view, there is NO more important topic for the SDA denomination right now, for this reason. IF we cannot communicate our faith to our own children, with whom we have a great deal in common, how will we ever communicate it to people with whom we have much less in common. Our children should be predisposed favorably toward our religion. If they're not, if those who have grown up in the faith don't find it worthwhile, then we need to examine the reasons for that urgently.

Something like 60% of Boomers (my generation) left the church, and basically people said "good riddance."

But the consequences of that have been devastating. In my state, Iowa 30 years ago, there were eleven church schools. In neighboring Missouri, there were almost twice that many.

Today, as anyone can verify by going to the website for the Iowa-Missouri Conference there are only 14 schools in both states combined.

My little church plant, aimed at Gen-X, has four young couples in their 20's. That's more young couples than the other two churches in town, with a total official membership 20 times our size, combined. Few churches in our entire conference could boast of more young couples in that age group.

In short, our elementary school system, outside the large SDA centers, is suffering serious decline. Our boarding academies have been reduced in number, and still they struggle. When I was in academy, Iowa had one, and it had about 145 students. Missouri had somewhat more. Today, ONE academy serves both conferences, and last I knew it had about 135 total.

I taught for most of the 1970s in the Illinois Conference. In those days, Broadview Academy had well over 200 students every year. The last time I heard, there wer 85.

And this despite the fact that the Millennials, Generation Y, or the Echo Boomers, whatever you want to call them, are almost exactly as numerous as the Boomers.

The Adventist News service released information that the median age of NA SDA's is 58! Because of the dearth of young couples, in ten years this number will be even higher!

There's a demographic emergency here that few are paying attention to. I've been talking about it for more than ten years. Most people just don't want to hear about it. Others don't want to hear and to do what could be done about it.

I'm sorry this went long. You've really tapped in to my passion, here.

[cricket]

Addressing one thing here: one reason why many SDA children are not in the church schools is that the church schools are not doing an acceptable job of educating the youth--neither in the religious studies, nor the academic studies. Many in the Iowa-Missouri conference are turning to homeschooling as a viable option; and some turn to schools of other religious influence.

[aldona]

Quote:

Something like 60% of Boomers (my generation) left the church, and basically people said "good riddance."

Not just boomers, people of my generation too (I'm 34). No doubt many of them were ASKED to leave (like some of the people I attended Adventist schools with):

- For not being dressed right for church

- For playing the wrong kind of music

- For having hair too long (males)

- For having hair too short (females)

- For wearing jewelry/make-up

- For getting involved with drugs, alcohol, premarital sex, etc

- For being "a bad influence"

- For daring to ask difficult questions

- For thinking "outside the box"

And many of the Adventist youth I grew up with, if they escaped the above fate, went to the other extreme and became fundamentalist fanatics (we still have friends from time to time who join what we call "the Taliban").

There seems to be a difficulty finding a balanced and moderate way of living and expressing their faith.

I don't know why and I certainly don't have the answers. Just an observation I've made.

aldona

[Woody]

If you don't think like the majority in your local church ... they will kick you out. It is called disfellowship. I was the church clerk of a church that did that. I was on the Board and pleaded with them not to kick her out. She did NOTHING that was considered a sin. She just didn't think as the Board thought she should. She did not make a disruption about her beliefs except as appropriate through the Board and Church business meetings.

I did not agree with any of her beliefs. But I did believe in her right to have her beliefs. The church did not believe in that right and kicked her out. As the church clerk ... I had to write a letter to her informing her of the decision.

Many people are fed up with the judgments of the church on it's members. If you want to display the love of God and grow your church ... Don't sit in judgment of your fellow sinners.

[Jeannieb43]

I did not agree with any of her beliefs. But I did believe in her right to have her beliefs. The church did not believe in that right and kicked her out. As the church clerk ... I had to write a letter to her informing her of the decision.

Redwood, I applaud you for standing up for the poor lady being disfellowshipped. I don't know what I'd have done had I been in your position, but [please realize this is "easy for me to say " -- but what if you had resigned your position as church clerk rather than go against your principles by writing that letter?]

this is only a thought....

[sometimes, I feel our 'standing up for our beliefs' during the 'time of trouble' may involve speaking out against others in our own church.]

[Jeannieb43]

Quote:

Something like 60% of Boomers (my generation) left the church, and basically people said "good riddance."

Not just boomers, people of my generation too (I'm 34). No doubt many of them were ASKED to leave (like some of the people I attended Adventist schools with):

- For not being dressed right for church

- For playing the wrong kind of music

- For having hair too long (males)

- For having hair too short (females)

- For wearing jewelry/make-up

- For getting involved with drugs, alcohol, premarital sex, etc

- For being "a bad influence"

- For daring to ask difficult questions

- For thinking "outside the box"

aldona

Aldona: I find two revelations contained in your post:

(1) That you're "only" 34. [i'd pictured you in your 40s because of your M.D. degree and profession as a physician, plus your very mature 'take' on current issues.] and

(2) That Australia [which has been previously described to me as Utopia -- i.e., "USA 50 years ago"] has some of the same rigid lifestyle requirements as do some of the USA's Adventist academies.

I guess Satan knows each geographical area and how to disrupt God's plan in each member's heart.

I noticed that each of your lifestyle requirements stated above involves external demonstrations. Nowhere do these self-appointed regulators of behavior attempt or mention the inner life of a particular member. It's been my experience that sometimes the most devout and sincere Christian may be the one wearing the most gold on her person. She may be "coming from a different place" in her Christian experience. It is not ours to judge!

[Jeannieb43]

Quote:

There's a demographic emergency here that few are paying attention to.

Yes, Ed, and I for one would welcome your starting a new thread for discussion of this topic.

You have credibility with the denominational 'Brethren.' So would you be willing to discuss your ideas for correcting this problem?

My own personal feeling is that the church schools are suffering because the parents of school-age kids are either:

(1) recent converts themselves, who never attended church school and don't know its value; or

(2) lackadaisical members for whom the church has ceased to be important enough to make them want to spend the money on tuition.

Also, with today's rapid transportation, it's not necessary to have so many schools; a "union" school for each geographic area is a great idea -- but the parents have to be willing for their children to carpool or ride a school bus. So, numbers of schools aren't the issue IMHO -- but numbers of school-age kids are what's important. Each one of them should be in an Adventist school -- even if the local church has to subsidize tuition for some.

[Woody]

Your Point is well taken Jeannie.

It might have been better for me if I had quit as Church Clerk. I still feel very damaged by this experience. I am very bitter at my church because of it.

On the other side ... If I had resigned ... then I would not have been available to speak out against the evils that the church did. I was needed in further votes to protect "sinners".

A little later we had a man that had committed a sin that I will not describe. He was a wonderful Christian but had sinned. He got before the entire congregation during the church service and confessed his sin. This sin was not known by the church. He did not have to confess.

Well ... what do you think our judgment hungry Board members wanted to do .... YES .... They wanted to kick him out after his sincere confession. I felt another call to defend the defenseless. I was able to get the Board to limit the "punishment" to a censure. They gave him a two year censure even though this is in oppostion to the manual. Censure is meant for only a short period of time up to say 6 months.

However ... I had little support when it comes to the Church Manual with this sincere Christian. The manual says p163 in my edition ... " even though a sincere confession has been made, to disfellowship the member to protect its fair name and its Christian standards" This is all under the chapter "Reasons for Which Members Shall Be Disciplined".

As you can imagine ... I hate the church for having this evil statement in the Church Manual. We are all sinners and we ALL bring a smear on the Standard of the Church. We ALL fall short of the Standards. What we need to show is that we are all forgiven. If the community saw that we embraced the sinner with forgiveness instead of kicking them out for falling short ... then we would draw others and be a good witness.

So ... when it comes to Church organization ... I have a lot of anger. I see so many unchristian policies in the church. So ... why am I still an SDA? I guess it is still the same reason that I stayed on as Church Clerk. I want to help protect sinners from the oppressiveness of the Church organization.

[there buster]

Quote:

Not just boomers, people of my generation too (I'm 34). No doubt many of them were ASKED to leave (like some of the people I attended Adventist schools with):

My point was that the children of the Boomers weren't in the church to begin with.

Yes, the retention rate for those under 40 is my burden. It's pathetic. They are very scarce. That was my point about my little church plant-- we have 4 couples under 30. Almost no other church in our entire conference could say the same thing.

We've been hemorrhaging for years, and we can't get a transfusion of new blood, either.

[there buster]

Quote:

You have credibility with the denominational 'Brethren.'

Well, I wouldn't go that far. The denomination is very large. There are many 'brethren,' most of whom probably are unaware of my existence. Beyond that, whether we believe it or not, the power in this church is in the pews and in the conference offices.

Conference presidents report only to their constituents, and if those at constituency meetings like what the conference president is doing, he gets re-elected. Most conferences have the president they want.

The consequence of all this is that it is a self-reinforcing status quo. The aging members of our congregations don't want their Sabbath -- or their business meetings -- disturbed by anything. Any conference president who wants to change that will not long remain in office.

Quote:

So would you be willing to discuss your ideas for correcting this problem?

Which problem? The atrophy of our primary and secondary school system? Or the demographic crisis and its implications?

[Dr. Shane]

We don't have those problems in the latin community. I am a member of an English-speaking church in a hispanic community and I suspect close to 50% of our membership is under 40. I am 37.

[there buster]

How many are immigrants or children of immigrants?

I ask because they are a special case. Not ethnicity, but how recently they immigrated.

It's the indigenous population, of whatever ethnicity, in the US, Australia/NZ, and Europe in which our membership is aging, and in which we are unable to reach them effectively.

[Taylor]

I attend a very large church but we have loads of couples who are newly married, or who have young children. Our children's Sabbath Schools are bursting at the seams. I would imagine that the following would be a fairly accurate number:

1. Cradle Roll 1 15-20

2. Cradle Roll 2 20

3. Kindergarten 35

4. Primaries 35 - 40

5. Juniors 30 -35

6. Early Teens 20 - 30

7. Teens 40

8. Collegiate/young Adult 35 - 50

Adult Sabbath School Classes....well we have many of those as well as ones for various language groups.

However, I do know what you are saying..as I have lived where there are very few young families in churches.

[Dr. Shane]

In our church we have a lot of second generation immirgrants. There are a handful of first generation immirgrants from the Philipians or Africa. In this area the first generation hispanics go to Spanish-speaking churches. However some of their children, who were born here, will attend English-speaking churches like ours.

[Woody]

This is not a typical SDA church. Most are dead because there is no one under 35 years old.

[there buster]

How close are you to a large institution?

[cricket]

Another thought: perhaps the reason there aren't more "married, under 30" couples in the church is because many young people tend to get married and have children at a later age.

Our church (which happens to be in the Iowa-Missouri Conference) has at least:

3 married couples under 30 who have children

2 unwed mothers under 30

2 married couples under 30 with no children

12 unmarried youth between the ages of 18-25

There are a greater number of "over thirty, but newlywed and just beginning to have children" couples in the church.

The gap in the age groups may simply have happened due to a gap in the population as a whole--chosing to have babies at a later stage in life.

If it is typically true that young persons will return to church only after they've had children, then perhaps we're not seeing them at 20-25 because they haven't even gotten married yet.

[lazarus]

How many are immigrants or children of immigrants?

I ask because they are a special case. Not ethnicity, but how recently they immigrated.

It's the indigenous population, of whatever ethnicity, in the US, Australia/NZ, and Europe in which our membership is aging, and in which we are unable to reach them effectively.

I've noticed, in the UK, that 2nd generation immigrant children leave in the same numbers that indigenous children leave. The growing churches are the churches that have a high influx of immigrants. In a generation or so they will face the same problems that many white churches in the UK face. The young people have dissappeared! No one seems to care or at least be willing to do something radical to deal with it.

[there buster]

The U.K. is an interesting case. The indigenous population is 85% white, the church is 85% black.

When I was there, the Union officials told me that the bulk of church members were of West Indian origin. However, the new members were coming from recent immigrants from Ghana and Nigeria.

Once again, in an advanced industrialized culture, neither skin color nor ethnicity mattered as much as how lone one's family had been there.

Adventism has not found a way to effectively reach those with affluence and education, no matter their nationality or ethnicity.

Educated and affluent people everywhere are largely beyond the reach of current approaches (Remember Mike Ryan's 3-4%). So as affluence and education spread, fewer and fewer people will be receptive of our message. ANd since a large part of our outreach consists of education, we essentially prepare people to leave the church.

[lazarus]

Quote:

Adventism has not found a way to effectively reach those with affluence and education, no matter their nationality or ethnicity.

Educated and affluent people everywhere are largely beyond the reach of current approaches (Remember Mike Ryan's 3-4%). So as affluence and education spread, fewer and fewer people will be receptive of our message. ANd since a large part of our outreach consists of education, we essentially prepare people to leave the church.

It seems to me that Adventism hasn't found a way to reach the less affluent either. There are millions of middle-low income indigenous, less educated that we are not reaching in the UK. I think it may be the same in the US too! In the developed world we are reaching hardly anyone except immigrants.

In my conference 23 out of 24 new churches in the last 5 years were Spanish.