Moderators John317 Posted February 25, 2007 Moderators Posted February 25, 2007 John 317 ... This is exactly my point. It is impossible to say that any prophet or disciple made a mistake in prophecy because all prophecy is condition according to some. By the way ... I am not in agreement that this was a conditional prophecy. It sounds like a statement to me. Of course I can see why you or anyone would think that. But Paul talks about being among the living when Jesus returns and the book of Revelation several times says Jesus is coming soon or quickly, and it seems also to be a statement and not a conditional prophecy. We just have to realize that at the time Ellen White made that statement, it really was up to the church whether Christ would come at that time. I honestly believe that the 20th century with all of its horrors did not HAVE to happen. It happened not because of God's plan but because of the response of the church to Christ and His message to it. That is where we stand today, as well. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted February 25, 2007 Posted February 25, 2007 While I think there is a big difference between saying specifically WHO will be alive at His coming ... versus saying Jesus is coming Soon ... I do think you have made some good points that I have not heard before. And they are food for thought for me. Thanks Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted February 25, 2007 Moderators Posted February 25, 2007 While I think there is a big difference between saying specifically WHO will be alive at His coming ... versus saying Jesus is coming Soon ... I do think you have made some good points that I have not heard before. And they are food for thought for me. Thanks Of course God knew thousands of years ago when He would come for His people. I believe the Bible is clear that God must have known He would not come until about 2000 years after Christ returned to heaven, but if God had told everyone He would not return, say, until 2025, we can all guess what everyone would have said and done. There would have been no sense of urgency and as a consequence even fewer would have been gotten ready than actually did get ready. And today it would be the same-- everyone waiting till the last minute. I know because I'm a big procrastinator if there ever was one. (By the way, I know an SDA theologian who has written a book in which he posits the idea that God does not know the end from the beginning but that God is a very good guesser and that He is powerful so He can sorta help things along. The book is called, "The Openness of God," by Richard Rice, one of my professors at LLU. It's his own personal opinion and has little support among SDAs. In fact, the book was withdrawn after it had been selling for a while. He was influenced by a philosopher named Whitehead and also by a German theologian named Pannenberg. Once I personally asked Pannenberg if he believed in a "personal devil," and this great theologian who has written extensively about what "personal" means, told me that he wasn't sure of the meaning of "personal devil." Dr. Heppenstall was sitting right beside me, and many other SDA scholars were there, and I just think that Pannenberg preferred not to admit that he does not believe in a personal devil. Imagine the debate that could have ensued!) Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted February 25, 2007 Moderators Posted February 25, 2007 While I think there is a big difference between saying specifically WHO will be alive at His coming ... versus saying Jesus is coming Soon ... I do think you have made some good points that I have not heard before. And they are food for thought for me. Thanks What do you think of the fact that Ellen White directly quotes an "angel"? I can't imagine that she lied or that the angel was not a good angel. Nor can I imagine that she misunderstood the quote, because it seems to be a fairly simple message the angel gave her. Besides, it seems to me that if Mrs. White got it wrong, she would have been given another vision to correct it or freshen her memory. This often happened, that when she couldn't remember something, as for instance when she was presenting something before the people, a vision would be given to her in a flash and she would remember it clearly. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted February 28, 2007 Moderators Posted February 28, 2007 John317 - I notice you have not produced a single instance of EGW successfully correcting a historical fact, nor can you deny that she made historical errors./Bevin In writing on health, she used the writings of various people but selected those that were according to what she knew was right based on the visions that she had received on that subject. She discarded those things that she believed were wrong. There are many instances of this given already in well-known published books. When it comes to correcting historical records, here's an answer that I received from the Ellen G. White estate on that question: No example comes immediately to mind--where all the historians agree on some point, and she, on the basis of revelation, corrects them. I'll give some further contemplation to the question, though. She certainly wrote history that would have favored one historian's treatment over another's--presumably because it more closely reflected the point she wanted to express. But we're talking about historical details here, and in general, we don't understand that her revelations were concerned about things on that level--which is one of the reason why she did not want her writings to be used to "correct" historians. Additionally, she tended to intentionally NOT include details that would have been challenged by historians. Her purpose was to convince her readers of the truthfulness of what she was writing, to bring in historical authorities that supported her arguments, and not to give her readers a reason to reject her writing because it conflicted with accepted historians. We also know she was selective in what she chose to incorporate from these historians. It may be that in part of what she skipped over there were points with which she disagreed--whether philosophically, or in the light of her revelations. We can only speculate, because we can't get inside her head to know precisely what she was shown. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted February 28, 2007 Posted February 28, 2007 Quote: There would have been no sense of urgency and as a consequence even fewer would have been gotten ready than actually did get ready. And today it would be the same-- everyone waiting till the last minute. I know because I'm a big procrastinator if there ever was one. Unless you can further explain this commonly expressed view ... I have to reject it. We all have an urgency ... an that is because at ANY moment we could die and our judgment sealed at that moment. I do have an urgency. I need God in my life to the fullest at this very minute. I may not have another one. I will not wait till the last minute that might not come. Death is the biggest motivator of urgency not the date of His coming. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted February 28, 2007 Moderators Posted February 28, 2007 Quote: There would have been no sense of urgency and as a consequence even fewer would have been gotten ready than actually did get ready. And today it would be the same-- everyone waiting till the last minute. I know because I'm a big procrastinator if there ever was one. Unless you can further explain this commonly expressed view ... I have to reject it. We all have an urgency ... an that is because at ANY moment we could die and our judgment sealed at that moment. I do have an urgency. I need God in my life to the fullest at this very minute. I may not have another one. I will not wait till the last minute that might not come. Death is the biggest motivator of urgency not the date of His coming. So you think that if God had announced to the whole world in, say, AD 100 that Christ would not return until 2025, that people in AD 200 and in AD 1900, etc., would have a sense of urgency? Knowing human nature as I do, and by observing the lack of urgency today, I can't see how telling everyone when Christ would return would increase people's sense of urgency. You personally may have a sense of urgency to get ready for Christ's return, but the fact is that most people don't have it. Even many who do believe Christ will return possibly within their lifetime don't have a clear idea of what it means to prepare or get ready to meet Christ. Some, astonishingly also among SDAs, don't even think there's any preparation necessary. But that there is a preparation necessary, the following verses make very plain: 2 Peter 3: 10-14; Rev. 19:7,8; Eph. 5:27; 2 Peter 1: 3-11; 1 John 3: 2,3; 2:28. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
bevin Posted February 28, 2007 Author Posted February 28, 2007 Ok - so the White Estate agrees that there are no obvious cases where she corrected historians. On healthy, she was okay - but not perfect by any means, and in fact in many ways she was BEHIND her times. Before I go into what she got wrong, let me say that she got a LOT of stuff right, and that there was a lot to be gained by living the style she was recommending at the end of the 1800's compared to what the average person was living. Mostly she was (wisely) giving plausible advice on how to stay healthy - although nothing uniquely her. There are a few "sins of commission" - such as The Ministry of Healing, page 276, paragraph 4 Quote: No waste vegetables or heaps of fallen leaves should be allowed to remain near the house to decay and poison the air. and she gets the causes of diseases wrong... The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials, page 767, paragraph 1 Quote: They were living in an old wooden house which was decaying, and there was a disagreeable smell. The typhoid fever, it is thought, was in consequence of this unhealthful house. But the "sins of ommission" on staying healthy are huge Typhus/Typhoid fever - nothing useful TB - nothing useful Smallpox - nothing useful Polio - nothing useful Rickets - nothing useful (indeed the anti-milk stance is positively harmful) Tooth decay - nothing useful Importance of iodine - nothing useful Pasteurized milk - nothing useful http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasteurization Vaccines Her advice on fixing health problems is a pretty pragmatic summary of 1850-1900 medicine. Again she misses almost all the important points that were not well known in her own time. Specifically all available useful drugs - Selected Messages Book 2, page 448, paragraph 2 Quote: Medicine never could have accomplished this. Medicine deranges nature's fine machinery, and breaks down the constitution, and kills, but never cures. and Selected Messages Book 2, page 280, paragraph 1 Quote: As the matter was laid open before me, and the sad burden of the result of drug medication, the light was given me that Seventh-day Adventists should establish health institutions discarding all these health-destroying inventions, and physicians should treat the sick upon hygienic principles. and Welfare Ministry, page 335, paragraph 4 Quote: Mr. Pringle is the only man in the village who knows anything about giving treatment without drugs This in spite of the fact that the following "modern" medicines were already available and being used - Aspirin, Digitalis, Quinine, Morphine, Nitrous Oxide, Ether, and others were available and being used appropriately. Nor did she understand the value of antiseptics, which were available by 1867 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiseptics In short, if you are going to mention all the things that she got right, you should balance it with a long list of the things that she got wrong. /Bevin Quote
Woody Posted February 28, 2007 Posted February 28, 2007 Quote: You personally may have a sense of urgency to get ready for Christ's return This is a wrong impression of what I believe. I do not have a sense of urgency to prepare personally for Christ's return. I have an urgency to be ready at this very moment because I could die at any moment and my decision would be sealed. I do have an urgency to prepare others to get to know Christ before He returns. But we all need to be ready NOW. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted February 28, 2007 Posted February 28, 2007 Ok - so the White Estate agrees that there are no obvious cases where she corrected historians. On healthy, she was okay - but not perfect by any means, and in fact in many ways she was BEHIND her times. Before I go into what she got wrong, let me say that she got a LOT of stuff right, and that there was a lot to be gained by living the style she was recommending at the end of the 1800's compared to what the average person was living. Mostly she was (wisely) giving plausible advice on how to stay healthy - although nothing uniquely her. There are a few "sins of commission" - such as The Ministry of Healing, page 276, paragraph 4 Quote: No waste vegetables or heaps of fallen leaves should be allowed to remain near the house to decay and poison the air. and she gets the causes of diseases wrong... The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials, page 767, paragraph 1 Quote: They were living in an old wooden house which was decaying, and there was a disagreeable smell. The typhoid fever, it is thought, was in consequence of this unhealthful house. But the "sins of ommission" on staying healthy are huge Typhus/Typhoid fever - nothing useful TB - nothing useful Smallpox - nothing useful Polio - nothing useful Rickets - nothing useful (indeed the anti-milk stance is positively harmful) Tooth decay - nothing useful Importance of iodine - nothing useful Pasteurized milk - nothing useful http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasteurization Vaccines Her advice on fixing health problems is a pretty pragmatic summary of 1850-1900 medicine. Again she misses almost all the important points that were not well known in her own time. Specifically all available useful drugs - Selected Messages Book 2, page 448, paragraph 2 Quote: Medicine never could have accomplished this. Medicine deranges nature's fine machinery, and breaks down the constitution, and kills, but never cures. and Selected Messages Book 2, page 280, paragraph 1 Quote: As the matter was laid open before me, and the sad burden of the result of drug medication, the light was given me that Seventh-day Adventists should establish health institutions discarding all these health-destroying inventions, and physicians should treat the sick upon hygienic principles. and Welfare Ministry, page 335, paragraph 4 Quote: Mr. Pringle is the only man in the village who knows anything about giving treatment without drugs This in spite of the fact that the following "modern" medicines were already available and being used - Aspirin, Digitalis, Quinine, Morphine, Nitrous Oxide, Ether, and others were available and being used appropriately. Nor did she understand the value of antiseptics, which were available by 1867 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiseptics In short, if you are going to mention all the things that she got right, you should balance it with a long list of the things that she got wrong. /Bevin Bevin ... You responded all this to me but this was not my question. However I do agree with all that you have said here. And I appreciate your work to point this out. This is important. Like you say ... Ellen White has a lot of good but we need to use our brains and figure out which is good and which is bad. Some will try to tell us that ALL she says is good. I just do not buy that. Take what is good and throw out the rest. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted March 1, 2007 Moderators Posted March 1, 2007 Quote: You personally may have a sense of urgency to get ready for Christ's return This is a wrong impression of what I believe. I do not have a sense of urgency to prepare personally for Christ's return. I have an urgency to be ready at this very moment because I could die at any moment and my decision would be sealed. I do have an urgency to prepare others to get to know Christ before He returns. But we all need to be ready NOW. You make some good points here, but the Bible says that in view of Christ's return, and of what will happen at that time, we should consider "what sort of people ought [we] to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God...According to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be deligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless, and blameless..." 2 Peter 3:11-14 "Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we shall be. We know that, when He appears, we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him just as He is. And every one who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, as as He is pure. Every one who practices sin also practices lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. And you know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or known Him...No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, becuase he is born of God." 1 John 3:2-6,9 There are, as I'm sure you know, many verses that describe how we should live if we want to be ready for Christ's return. What some apparently forget or don't take into account is that there is difference between being ready for death and being ready to meet Jesus when He returns. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted March 1, 2007 Posted March 1, 2007 Where is one of those shaking of the head dodads. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted March 1, 2007 Moderators Posted March 1, 2007 Where is one of those shaking of the head dodads. Where is one of those nodding of the head dodads. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
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