EGW would not vote for Hillary

[Woody]

"I do not recommend that women should seek to become a voter or an office holder" Ellen White --Review and Herald, Dec. 19, 1878. ChS 28

[Stan]

Would she still say that today?

How different is that to her saying not to own a bicycle...

EGW was a HUGE believer in PRESENT TRUTH...

[cricket]

I don't get it. Redwood, isn't your wife going to be a pastor? You confuse me, man.

[Woody]

Would she still say that today?

How different is that to her saying not to own a bicycle...

EGW was a HUGE believer in PRESENT TRUTH...

My point is that I have NO idea if she would say the same today. I am not able to get into her head. She has been dead for too long. All I have is her words. I do believe that times change and perhaps she would feel differently now. I can hope she would change her mind. Not that I like Hillary ... but I do feel a women can be just as qualified.

Stan ... I can understand that the cost of a bicycle has changed. I am not sure that the God given qualities of a woman to vote and hold office has changed.

So ... why didn't Ellen White make a stand for this in her time? I don't know.

[Woody]

(e)]I don't get it. Redwood, isn't your wife going to be a pastor? You confuse me, man.

Yes ... As a Pastor's spouse, I do believe strongly in Ellen White. But also ... I don't believe we have anything to hide. And I think that open dialogue is critical.

I am sorry that you are offended by her quote. If you will notice ... I did not include commentary on her words ... I just quoted her. I am not sure what is offensive about quoting her.

I will let each person decide for themselves what this means. But all we have is her words. And personally I have enough problems with trying to determine what people mean about what they say on CA ... let alone what some woman a hundred and twenty nine years ago meant.

[Taylor]

She also says that women should be pastors.

Personal opinion, you can't take things out of context and then judge her on what she has to say.

At times the political peace of the sitaution is more important than individual rights, even if it isn't "correct". Does that make sense?

She was a woman pastor, she paid women Bible workers, she was supportive of women. I see this just like the Rich man and Lazurus, There are reasons for including what she said here, reasons we may not understand today or need to read in context.

[David Koot]

From what I recall reading, years ago, the issue seemed not to be so much whether or not to vote or to hold public office, but getting caught up in some of the 'crusades' which were popular at the time. And, following the example of Jesus.

Dave

[Taylor]

I think you have a valid point too David.

[Woody]

Quote:

At times the political peace of the sitaution is more important than individual rights, even if it isn't "correct". Does that make sense?

Not that I can know what her intentions were ... but yes Taylor ... I do think this makes a lot of sense.

This brings up a good question. Do Christians have rights? If we do ... should not they be laid aside for a greater good? I would think this was her point. Our life was paid for with a price. It was the blood of Christ. We are now His. He is our master. We are His slave in a sense. (Don't take that TOO far.) But, we should serve the Master and not be concerned with our RIGHTS. We as Christians are to give up our rights to others for their good.

Perhaps Ellen White was saying it is not necessary to make waves and push a political agenda. I can see that point of view but am not sure how far to go with it. I guess it is hard to know unless you were living back in Ellen White's time.

[cricket]

I never suggested that I was offended by your post. I simply said that I didn't understand why you posted it. I suppose my confusion was that you didn't post any commentary behind it (giving no hint as to why you posted it).

I was not offended by that at all. Further, I'm not offended that you read more into my words than I put there.

[Woody]

Quote:

I suppose my confusion was that you didn't post any commentary behind it (giving no hint as to why you posted it).

Oh ... OK chris .... I do like to quote the Bible and EGW a lot. I have lots of questions. I like to see the take of others and to get things started ... I do not feel I need to give my commentary. If I were to do so ... it would just slant things and steer the discussion rather than to just let others take it where they will. I know my beliefs but would rather hear the response of others and learn from their experience before I give my slant. I don't always do this but I think it is a good approach to do sometimes.

I can understand how you would have some "confusion". Although I am not sure what having a Pastor as a spouse has anything to do with your "confusion". I am just interested more I guess in the opinions of others than expressing my own opinion in the commentary that you observed as missing.

[Gerr]

"I do not recommend that women should seek to become a voter or an office holder" Ellen White --Review and Herald, Dec. 19, 1878. ChS 28

I haven't had time to check the context of this statement, but I suggest we look at it. I checked the context of the other thread started by Redwood on SDAs working with Catholics and it is poles apart from what he says EGW was suggesting.

Gerry

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

"I do not recommend that women should seek to become a voter or an office holder" Ellen White --Review and Herald, Dec. 19, 1878. ChS 28

I haven't had time to check the context of this statement, but I suggest we look at it. I checked the context of the other thread started by Redwood on SDAs working with Catholics and it is poles apart from what he says EGW was suggesting. Gerry

I saw this yesterday...and was bothered by it...2 things came to mind...

ONe was her ugencey to fulfill our patriotic dutys and to vote. The second was to wonder just how far out of context this was.

As for Red's non commnetary on the quote, this continues to give a person, whether SDA or a new SDA or even one who is not as familiar with her works as some lifelong members, the perception of 1] ultra conservative-ness, 2] being doctrine orientated 3] non-spirit lead. To which all these perceptions leads one to believe that one is to be a fanactic and cultish in thier true allegience to God....

Not very Christian, is it?

Well, IMHO, and apparently Gerry's as well [and Gerry, don't let me put words into your mouth], putting this type of thing on this board without commentary, is akin to promoting a cultish attitude among conservative board members and newbies... But it takes a post like this, et al that are loving and clarifying of the comment to counter balance the cultish remarks...

[Stan]

Statements like this initial one, really make EGW look unbalanced and weird, until one looks into the whole story... Not sure the Church, God or his followers are blessed by that..

Just my opinion

[Woody]

Quote:

I saw this yesterday...and was bothered by it...2 things came to mind...

ONe was her ugencey to fulfill our patriotic dutys and to vote. The second was to wonder just how far out of context this was.

As for Red's non commnetary on the quote, this continues to give a person, whether SDA or a new SDA or even one who is not as familiar with her works as some lifelong members, the perception of 1] ultra conservative-ness, 2] being doctrine orientated 3] non-spirit lead. To which all these perceptions leads one to believe that one is to be a fanactic and cultish in thier true allegience to God....

Not very Christian, is it?

Well, IMHO, and apparently Gerry's as well [and Gerry, don't let me put words into your mouth], putting this type of thing on this board without commentary, is akin to promoting a cultish attitude among conservative board members and newbies... But it takes a post like this, et al that are loving and clarifying of the comment to counter balance the cultish remarks...

Neil and Stan ... Thank you for pointing this out to me. I had not intended to cause any offense. I love my church and Ellen White and would not want to cause any misunderstandings by not posting my personal commentary. In the future I will try to voice my opinion and questions more often.

I am somewhat hesitant to do this. I do not want to hinder or direct discussions. I would rather hear the opinions of others. I do not always understand the actual context and message that Ellen White was trying to say. I do hear a lot of opinion and insistance of others who CLAIM they know her intent. They love to insert words and their opinion to justify their belief of her. I am more literal. I find that she speaks in moderation on most issues. She will "appear" to contradict herself some times. And in my "opinion" I think she grew in her understanding and experience. So ... I think it is fine for us to simply say that one quote is just an early understanding and that she grew to believe differently. What ever the case is that you believe ... I feel we should not shy from discussing any quote from her.

I do not claim to understand all of her writings. I have many questions. And I will continue to bring quotes from her and ask for clarification from members here. But I will at your suggestion ... try to propose more opinion and questions so as not to appear to belittle the church or Ellen White. That is not my intention.

So thank you for bringing all this to my attention.

[Woody]

"I do not recommend that women should seek to become a voter or an office holder" Ellen White --Review and Herald, Dec. 19, 1878. ChS 28

Since I was asked to and have committed to including my opinion ... I thought I should start here.

When I read Ellen White literally and that is what I tend to do ... I see that in this quote she states that Women should not vote. So ... if Ellen White would not vote ... she couldn't very well vote for Hillary. The second point would be that Ellen White says that a women should not hold a public office. So, even if Ellen White voted ... she would not vote for a women since a women should not be an office holder.

There are many more questions however. What was the reason for this statement. In many quotes Ellen White seems to support women in the ministry of Christ. What is different about public office? Did Ellen White just not want the controversy? This is what I lean towards.

What about the year 2007? Does she still stand behind this statement or has she changed her mind. I find that many times in her writings ... she appears to change her mind and I have no problem with that.

Does this statement suggest that SDAs look like a CULT as a previous post indicated? WELL ... it depends upon your view of Ellen White. If you equate her writings with scripture then this statement might LOOK like we are a cult. But if you believe as I that she grew in her experience like all of us do ... then it is not necessary to believe that every word she wrote was inspired.

I personally believe she was a prophet. The question I have is which statements were inspired? One way might be to look for her words ... "And I was shown in vision" OR "The Lord showed me". I really am not sure. But I do not accept every word she spoke as gospel. So ... if there are some of her words that do not make sense to me ... I feel free to discard them until I do understand. I believe that unless we stand by the word of God and only the word of God ... that we should rightfully be called a CULT. I believe that Ellen White would be the first to agree with this statement.

So ... would Ellen White vote for Hillary? Her words say NO. But I have to believe that she would change her view in 2007 and I believe she would have no problem voting for Hillary as a women.

[Dr. Shane]

I don't think Hillary would vote for EGW either!

[Woody]

Quote:

"Nothing is as peevish and pedantic as men's judgments of one another." - Desiderius Erasmus

Neil ... I like this quote that you have below your posts.

[Kevin H]

First notice the words "I do not recommend..." not that she opposed it or saw it as necessarly wrong, only that it did not seem like a good idea at the time, that it was not something to push for at that time.

So what was that time like? Was there things happening so that it would not have been a wise choice in 1878? Are those reasons still in existance? How was Mrs. Whites actions and counsels latter as things began to change?

Football became popular, but became very dangerous. It was very common for football players to die, as well as horrible hatred between people over the teams rivalerys. Mrs. White warned against particapating. Years President Teddy Roosevelt ordered things to be changed or else football and other sports would become illegal. The game changed.

We take Mrs. White's warnings from the earlier time and apply it against all forms of competative sports. We ignore the historical situation, and that latter Mrs. White promiced the school a piece of land on the condition that they build a ballfield on it (yes it was a baseball field) and that Mrs. White loved to go there and watch Baseball games.

I remember in the 1970s different college professors going to different churches and reading two stories. One story would be strongly condemed with Ellen White quotes against fiction and the people would criticize the speaker to break the Sabbath by reading those horrible stories on Sabbath. But the other set of stories the congragation liked and felt were approprate for the Sabbath.

The professors would then point out how the stories that the conservaties liked where from books that Mrs. White had in mind when she made certan comments that were quoted against the other stories, and that the stories the congragation hated and though were going against Mrs. White's counsel and polluting the Sabbath came from a collection made by Mrs. White of stories she felt were useful to read on the Sabbath. Thirty years latter we have not changed. We don't like the fact that when in Europe Mrs. White got more excited in Switzerland to see the hills of the story of William Tell (who may or may not have lived) then she was over the reformaton sites, and as an old lady loved to tell children the stories of King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table.

So with this quote, let's again look at the context, including historical and geographical context, and how did her latter actions apply to that quote, and remember she did not condem the act as wrong, only said that she would not recommend it.

[Taylor]

Very good points Kevin! Thanks for this information.

[Woody]

Thanks Kevin. I think you have made some good points.

[there buster]

This is a fascinating example of "reading into" (eisegesis) a statement rather than "reading out," (exegesis)

Quote:

"I do not recommend that women should seek to become a voter or an office holder" Ellen White --Review and Herald, Dec. 19, 1878. ChS 28

Not to pick on anyone, but there is nothing in this statement that says women should not vote or hold office.

Ellen White "[did] not recommend that women should seek to become a voter or an office holder." emphasis mine.

Then look at the date: 1878

The National Women's Suffrage Party was formed in 1869. In 1872, the Wyoming territory, which allowed women to vote, was admitted as a territory.

So women "seeking to become" voters and office holders was a hot topic, and inevitably would be brought to Mrs. White. It looks to me like she's just saying that she doesn't recommend (neither did she forbid) that women get involved in the suffrage movement.

Don't forget, Joseph Bates had been ardent in support of the temperance movement and abolition of slavery, but when he came to the Sabbath and the 2nd Advent, he said, "the lesser must give way to the greater." He remained an active advocate of temperance and abolition all his life, but other things took first place.

Unless there is further evidence to the contrary, I would read this as a statement about priorities, NOT about whether women should vote or hold office.

Imagine what would have happened if she had recommended that women should become part of the suffrage movement. Those who over-emphasized her every utterance (and she was well aware of the problem) would have abandoned many other necessary projects--this is the time of the Southern Star, beginning foreign missions, and the Pitcairn-- so that the devout could demonstrate their earnestness by throwing themselves into the suffrage movement.

And by the way, this is precisely the sort of mis-reading that Rea and Numbers make so much of, and is, in the end, so irrelevant.

[phkrause]

Great Points Kevin.

pkrause

[olger]

Though Ellen White strongly supported two reform movements of the 19th century, the abolition of slavery and temperance, she strongly rejected the third: women's rights.

She warned that "those who feel called out to join the movement in favor of women's rights .. might as well sever all connection with the third angel's message. The spirit which attends the one cannot be in harmony with the other. The Scriptures are plain

upon the relations and rights of men and women" (Testimonies, vol. 1, p. 421).

While I support the involvement of women in the Lord's work, it should be always remembered that the Bible differs in its roles for men & women. In the midst of a world that is blurring the lines between men & women, we must, in honor to God, remain faithful to these Biblical distinctions.

olger

ps. I appreciate your word on "rights" RW. It would be well for us to remember that the only "right" our Lord claimed was the right to lay His life down and take it up again.

[Woody]

Quote:

While I support the involvement of women in the Lord's work, it should be always remembered that the Bible differs in its roles for men & women. In the midst of a world that is blurring the lines between men & women, we must, in honor to God, remain faithful to these Biblical distinctions.

Thank you for your participation Olger. I would point out to you what I am always preached to about ... Context Context Context. And guess what ... that means interpretation interpretation interpretation. And interpretation will be totally different one from another. And for one ... I am not going to be so bold as to say that I am the only one who has the Holy Spirit helping me with my interpretation.

And thank you for your kind words about "rights". I think that would be a good topic for a thread all on its own. Personally as a Christian I don't feel I have any rights except to give them up.