Request

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

I need to just let everyone know here that I was put through a lot of junk this last Sabbath by some former Adventists who claimed to be current Adventists, yet who are really a small cult with a separate "ministry name" that as yet I'm choosing not to reveal (I've been talking with some "powers that be" about this and getting it resolved), who tried to kidnap me, brainwash me, force their rites/practices onto me, etc. This is more than a prayer request, which is why it's in the Town Hall, though if the owners want to move it to the prayer section, that's fine with me.

I want to ask for special consideration when replying to things I've written here, as well as understanding regarding those things. It's not my intention at all be bash, belittle, misunderstand, or otherwise mistreat anyone here. Not even the people who tried to harm me last Sabbath. I'm just afraid that even in my good intentions, I might still wind up coming off that way. I'm not excusing it if it happens, I'm just asking for forgiveness ahead of time before I say anything stupid/regrettable.

One reason I don't wish to name these people or even their ministry is that they are former Adventists. Even if they weren't, I'd still ask you to pray for them. During my time with them, I did catch onto one major theme: these people are in bondage to fear, to themselves, to their pasts, and to each other. They need prayer, and the NEED GOD'S INTERVENTION. I'm doing my best to Trust that in some small way, He already has.

I also want to briefly mention some lessons I learned:

1) No matter what, it's my right to say "no" to any action someone else wants to take on me, regardless of the mental/emotional/religious abuse that's being dumped on me.

2) It really is wise to take a "don't talk but walk" attitude when someone won't take "NO" for an answer. Don't argue with them: just keep walking away, even if they follow you to the ends of the earth with their madness/personality disorders/etc.

3) Don't ever get in a car even with someone you think is an Adventist, even if you met them on an Adventist campus or at an Adventist church, if you've not known them very long, don't know their friends/family, don't have serious connections with them, etc. Most of the time, it's probably technically "ok" to do that, but seriously, after seeing what can happen, it's my opinion that it's a chance that's not worth taking.

4) Keep your things in your car, not in their house.

5) Don't travel more than $20.00 worth of gas in order to meet up with other people as mentioned in #3. If you don't know them, it's not worth the tons of gas money they might wind up costing you for absolutely nothing at all.

6) If something like this still happens to you, get help. Don't be afraid to tell someone who can do even just some small thing about it. Even if you think they won't listen or would blame you because they don't understand, do it anyway. Your fears are at least 50% chance unfounded and are the result of having been exposed to the fears and abuse of cultists.

7) If you can, take a MASSIVE vacation after this, not to live in fear, but to just really try to enjoy life. If you can't, take a moment here and there throughout your day to reconnect with God in prayer and Remember His Love for you.

8) Forgive and forget, as wacko as that might feel to you at the time. It's just not worth wasting any more of your time on.

9) Forgive yourself for whatever mistakes you might make in the future as a result of having gone through this. Don't blame others, don't blame yourself, just let it go and keep trying.

10) Do what I'm doing here, or add to this post letting others know that you too have been hurt by something like this, or otherwise massively messed over. Don't use this as a forum to bash those who hurt you: ask for prayer. Unless you're in a really crabby mood, then be yourself, but just expect that others might not understand your bashing people who need prayer.

11) Don't do to others what was done to you, or at least try to keep that in mind. Let others speak for themselves. Try to see their side of the coin. Don't force your beliefs onto them, no matter how much you believe in them. Whatever. I dunno - I don't make the rules around here, but these are my honest suggestions (and I think this forum has some great policies already anyway) for those who want to know how I feel about it after being put through this.

12) Do try to learn some lessons from the experience: allow it, in your own time and in God's Time, to make you a better person. You won't regret doing that, as you are ready for it.

So, those are the lessons I learned from this. Please don't ask me for further details about the situation, as I'm not prepared to publicly disclose them. I may not even legally be able to. So, I have to keep this vague. But I just felt that everyone here ought to know in general what I just went through, so you can treat me accordingly and as God Leads you.

Thanks.

[Gail]

Wow!!!

I am shocked! and so sorry that you underwent such a horrifying experience!

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Um, thanks, I guess. Yeah, I still am too... I'm doing my best to deal with it as Realistically and maturely as I know how. That's the kind of person I aspire to be, so that's what I'm working on trying to remember how to be.

[Bravus]

Huge hugs

[Woody]

I'm sorry for your experience. But, I am glad you are here.

[Stan]

That is horrible :(

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Thanks guys. That means a lot to me I'm glad I'm here too And yes, I can still smile. That was one of the first things that clued me in that I'll make it through this. I'm still me.

[olger]

I am amazed how accurate the Bible is to provide solid answers for the things that we struggle with in life.

oG

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

One other thing I'd like to mention is that during probably the most scary part of this, the one thing that kept me Grounded was not worrying about trying to remember a bunch of Bible texts, or trying to come up with the best and most theologically unarguable answers to the things that were being said to me, etc., - it was my Connection with God Himself that got me through. I Lived in Prayer. That's a "must have" when you're in this kind of situation, so I'd like to add that to #6 in my list of things I learned. I just wanted to clarify that before anyone jumped to any conclusions about what got me through. God got me through Himself. It had nothing to do with what was "on my mind" at the time. He kept me Focused and Connected to Him. He helped me to see the end from the beginning, and to know what to do or not do next that would keep me safe.

[Taylor]

That calm assurance that God was with you was from what you had learned from his Word. Isn't it wonderful that God left the Bible for us so we could know that he is our protector and will never leave us?

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Um, well, yes but what I want to make sure people here understand is that the calm assurance came from Him. If I had never been exposed to the Bible, I would have Known He was with me, because He's "come upon me" in the Spirit several times in the past, Himself. Yes, God actually does do that, for some, for those who He Knows will need to have experienced that later on. I'm not at all belittling Bible study, theology, or Faith. Not at all. But I wanted to Encourage those who Know what I'm talking about by letting everyone know what really happened there. Those stories of little kids who claim they've seen Jesus when they were, say, locked in closets and stuff??? All true. I even once saw Him in a dream (and nope, He doesn't at all look like the traditional "Jesus" we see in the Paintings, but I Knew it was Him). God is Real, and He's really Active in our lives in today's day and age, if you can Accept it. And I have to confess, I'm suspecting that He's Worked so Powerfully in my life Directly, partially because He Knew this was going to happen, and also because He Knew I would come here and talk about it later.

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

And also, no, I don't feel like talking about that dream. I don't feel like having anyone happen to come along here, pick it apart, debate about it, try to figure out if it was Real or not, etc. I don't feel like being picked apart either. I've just been put through that this last Sabbath, and I don't need it again. Hopefully, that's not too sharp of a thing to say. It's just how I really feel.

[Morning Glory]

Dear COG,

I am so sorry that you went thru such a horrific experience!! It shows real maturity to come to a forum like this and post as you have done. Our God is so Wonderful and Protective, far beyond what any of us could even imagine!! I am so encouraged to hear how He kept you calm and got you through your ordeal. Your dream DOES sound interesting, however, I absolutely respect your not wanting to talk about it. Just another way that God is real to us!! Thanks for having the courage to share all of this here.

Hugs to you,

Morning Glory

[Taylor]

And also, no, I don't feel like talking about that dream. I don't feel like having anyone happen to come along here, pick it apart, debate about it, try to figure out if it was Real or not, etc. I don't feel like being picked apart either. I've just been put through that this last Sabbath, and I don't need it again. Hopefully, that's not too sharp of a thing to say. It's just how I really feel.

COG I am really sorry if you felt I was picking you apart! I was rather baffeled by that thought so I went and reread my post and could see how it could be taken that way. I am really sorry. That was not my intent at all. I was trying to say I was grateful you knew your Bible well enough to KNOW and have that peace that God was with you. I am happy for you! And I also feel terrible that you had to go through all of this! It doesn't sound like fun at all. I knew once of another situation where this happened to a girl who was "kidnaped" literally by these types of people. She did get out and is fine now but wow there are some VERY VERY strange people out there! I am so glad you are ok.

[Clio]

Abba's presence is blessed, real, and tangible, COG. I'm so glad He sheltered and protected you.

I've felt His wonderful strong arms too... and I greatly cherish the times He lets me crawl up on His lap until I feel better.

Clio

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Thank you everyone for your words of Love and Encouragement. Also, Taylor, I wasn't trying to respond to what you said. However, it did give me the feeling that I might have given off the wrong impression about what happened, and that others might go ahead and get the wrong idea. I was only clarifying for the sake of historical truth. I think I should further clarify that, the truth is, at the time that this happened, I didn't even have the Bible on my mind at all. 1000% fright does that to people.

Also, please don't assume that I was always calm, or that I didn't argue with those people. I wrote what I did above about "don't talk but walk" with much rue. I wish someone had trained me to know this prior to this happening. The truth is, those people used arguing to "hold" me "in place" for as long as they could. Part of my time with them was spent in a public park, and if I'd really had my brains about me, I would have just walked over to some other group of people, informed them of what was happening, asked for a ride and taken my chances. Chances are I would likely have "gotten in" with a decent group of people who would have given me a ride to the local police station. But noooo! I had to "sit" (stand) there on my high horse arguing with these people about my right to say "NO!!!" to their "sincere" desire to perform a couple of religious rites on me!!! It was SOO stupid. The whole thing was stupid. My only "mistake" was in not being prior-trained in:

1) How to hopefully avoid this sort of thing happening in the first place (how to recognize the signs of it starting to happen [control freak people who've not known me long and are ultra-religious types]).

2) How to handle said people if I'm caught in such a situation as well as what to do that has nothing to do with them.

3) How to deal with the aftermath on a Spiritual and emotional level, whether or not physical damage of any kind was done (in my case, none of any kind was done, thank God).

It is my sincere hope that all our SDA kids will be trained outright, in 100% blunt honesty, and without fear of what they might think of it all, in all 3 of those areas before first grade is out, with "booster training" probably in 5th grade as well as in their Freshman years both in high-school and in college. While too much emphasis can "dull" their desire to care about it, lack of knowledge pretty much really is what got me into this mess in the first place. I don't know if perhaps there already is such training in our schools. I only know that I was born in 1975, in first grade in 1983, and my high-school grad-class was 1994. I went through no such training the whole time. So, I suppose I'd also like to suggest that such training be provided within our churches every few years, for adults as well (I'm 32 and this still happened to me).

Oh, and one more tip I'd like to add to the above list: even if you are following all the other tips, it's still a good idea to both be with at least one other "buddy" when you travel to meet people, and also have a "remote buddy" (at home, via their cell phone) who's expecting you to come back home by a certain day/time. Bringing a cell phone is also a good idea, if you have one, but if not, just remember two things: there are caring, decent human beings out in the public who'd love nothing more than to help, and also that there are pay phones all over the place. I'm sure those of you who've come here could probably add similar tips (please do) that can help anyone who might find themselves in such a position as I found myself in.

Again, thanks everyone Btw - this is "Day 3" for me, and I'm doing pretty good. I've been kinda emotionally all over the board, but that's been good for me too. God is with me :D

[Stan]

My friend...

I am not sure what happened, and some details are none of my business, but I have to ask this, is this something that the Police should be informed off to stop it from happening to someone else?

Stan

[Taylor]

Very wise question Stan.

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Thanks Stan, I've already contacted them, and they are watching this cult closely. So is a pastor of one of our churches in the area where this happened, as he's had dealings with them in the past (I didn't know that before I took a chance and called him).

Oh, hey, so yeah, another tip: notify the pastor of the local SDA church either of where you live or of where cult people live. And yes, do notify the police, even if you can't prove one iota of what you're saying. They'll both (pastor and police) keep such groups under close surveillance. Once there is proof that shows up later on (I'm betting there will be, eventually), such groups will be dealt with and brought to trial. A provable crime has to be committed first. Unfortunately, because I can't even prove that I was with them (one of the main legal reasons I can't name them and still tell what happened), all I could do was report what happened and ask that they be under watchful eyes. Which is exactly what's happening.

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

I've been compiling a list of ways to recognize at least the people I was with. I've broken it down into "cults" vs. "cultists." This is based completely on my own experience, and I'm sure that it's not a perfect "map" to follow in always accurately recognizing cults or cultists. A lot of this could just as easily be pegged on just about anyone for just being human, and some of this (such as the first few in the first list) can be pegged on honest start-up-churches too. Yet there are certain patterns that can develop until you really do have a problem situation on your hands.

So, with all that in mind, here are the lists I compiled under those headings:

Oh, and one other note: no, the leader didn't think he was Jesus or that he was hundreds of years old, at least not that I know of (I do wonder if I just wasn't with them long enough for him to start saying stuff like that though). Just to clarify that.

Cults

1) Start out small. Make excuses for their size, if they are "just getting started."

2) Either rent churches/gyms or meet in homes/compounds, or even just in shacks or out in the woods.

3) Don't socialize much with other Christian groups excepting to try to proselytize them.

4) Ask for immediate participation/help in small "tasks" for them, such as handing out pamphlets at meetings: this is their way of "scoping out" who's "easy" and who isn't.

5) Have their own collections of music sheets copied from varied sources without giving credit in every case.

6) Are rude to innocent bystanders while at the same time "exercising" their "rights" to "freedom of speech."

7) Judge others and talk about them behind their backs, openly to each other, "pitying" them for not having "opened up" and joined their religion. Are desperate/overly-hungry for new recruits.

8) Show no respect at all for items or cultural practices used in Worshiping God, for the Bible, or for themselves. Are careless, don't seriously research such items and practices, etc. Don't connect either to the importance that God gave them: "They're only items/practices, nothing more."

9) Offer everything from rides to money to a place to stay to things to eat/drink, even when you already have what you need with you or somewhere else to go.

10) Hyper-focus on religion: don't have lives outside of religion at all.

11) Express a lot of anger towards either a specific doctrine, leader, or lifestyle issue from another denomination, claiming that their way is better "and here's why..." and they go on and on and on and on...

12) Tend to dress either dumpy or overly nice: don't have any concept of what "normal" for their culture/decade is.

13) Hyper-focus on the way things "ought" to be or "used to be better" etc. Idealists, with their own particular and very rigid ideals.

14) Get rude and uncomfortable when others either start asking reasonable questions about their group, or when others start to seem as if they aren't interested in being recruited.

15) Focus on your "sins" (outward stuff, mostly). Try to make you admit your sins to them. Assume that you are guilty of at least one sin out of a whole list of their favorite sins to pick on. Have the idea that they have something to offer you for the remission of your sins, that comes from them. Don't just tell you about God and then leave you in His Capable Hands. Try to "fix" you themselves.

Cultists

1) Interrupt you a lot: seem not to hear you when you know they could and should have - repeatedly.

2) Have closed minds/tunnel vision regarding everything in life, and everything has to do with their religious creed.

3) Make their rules/expectations over you clear from the very start, even rudely so. Especially regarding gender roles.

4) Act like normal people when you first meet them to gain your trust, then wait until you are trapped away from home/car/friends/relatives before revealing what they are really all about.

5) Blame you if things don't go well. Won't take personal responsibility. Lie about the recent happenings within their conversation with you.

6) Claim that you are treating them the way they've really been treating you.

7) Won't let you talk for yourself. Tell you what you are feeling and then tell you to change how your feeling, and insist on it.

8) Can't let the conversation drop, even when they have said they don't want to talk about it anymore.

9) Use the Bible, your religion of upbringing, and religious music to warp/twist your reality, and insist that they are right and you are just the "victim of religious abuse" and that you "need healing."

10) Won't take "NO" for an answer, or continually argue with you about your "NO" even for hours on end. Can't stay focused on anything other than arguing about it. Can't accept it that you have boundaries and are sticking to them. Disrespect your boundaries anyway, with no chance on your part to have any control over whether they do that or not. Think you have a breaking point or a price.

11) Talk "down" to you or belittle you if you say "NO." Say things like "Well, you just aren't ready for healing yet, that's all. You're just not ready..." as if they are sooo convinced you need God's their healing. Don't bother to find out if perhaps you actually don't even have the problem(s) they claim you have. Jump to conclusions and won't clarify anything, or let you clarify anything, etc. Claim that you are in denial and they know what you need, etc.

12) Are obviously in bondage to fear. Act like they're scared of you and like you owe them your good behavior to gain their trust. Will even "pray" (out loud or in whispers) to show their fear of you.

13) Cry over nothing if they aren't getting their way with you.

14) Say they are "sorry" but within their apology just blame you, or focus on what they think you should be feeling/experiencing.

15) Have no control over themselves at all, while they at the same time are attempting to control you from the inside out.

Again, some of this probably was specific to my situation. Yet it might not be: I've only been through this once, and I hope never to go through it again. I'm sure that if anyone else has been through it, they could add to this list as well.

Bottom line is this: these people are severely afraid of the world "NNOO!!!" They're like spoiled 2-year-olds. They can dole it out, but they can't hack it when they hear it.

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Oh, hey, I almost forgot:

About the request that I or that dream not be picked apart... Again, Taylor, I wasn't responding to your post. I was only warning anyone in general who might in the future be tempted to do that. Basically, I'm very sensitive about that. I wasn't accusing anyone of doing so, or even assuming that it would happen in the future for sure. It was just my way of letting people know ahead of time about what I'm sensitive about.

Thank you for being understanding and sensitive towards me. Also, for the general encouragement to get back into The Scriptures. Because they were used against me in the way that they were, I really had to step back and ask myself (after this was over) "...And why have I been relying so much on these again???" and kind of internally analyze that one for myself. Well, I had to re-evaluate a LOT of things in my inner-Spiritual life. The only thing I've Known for sure is that God is with me, He Loves me, and He will never leave me or stop loving me. Everything else has been a lot of work to establish within myself just what I believe and why, and I'm not just talking doctrinally: I'm talking everything.

So, yes, thank you for encouraging me to get back into the Bible. It forced me to face the fact that I had to decide if my God is really even the God of the Bible in the first place, because of His rules, what they're for, whether I have to follow them or not, etc, etc, etc. I had to face the fact that, while I Know He's Real, I wasn't entirely sure that I had a right to just mindlessly assume that He's the same God of the whole Bible or not. I had to work through a lot of stuff to come to the place where I've decided that He likely is, because He did use it in my life to explain Himself to me (after I Knew He existed). Now that all might make a good topic for another thread, heh.

Anyway, thanks :)

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Um, and about the dream... All I can say is that it really would be too tempting for people to analyze it to death and wind up being split apart over it, when the truth is, it was only for my own personal encouragement regarding a vein in my life that I now Know for sure God wants me to follow in, in the first place. It wasn't for corporate edification that I know of. Of course, He's always free to correct me on that in the future

I only mentioned it here because I wanted you all to know that it happened in the first place, it was a serious encouragement to me, and it was one of the many things He's done to help me Know that He's with me. But even that dream and those things were just a small part of it. At one point, while I was in the car of one of the leaders, I remember looking out the window up at the night sky and just KNOWING He was with me, Protecting me, and keeping all His Promises to me. I was T'd at the situation, but was a tad calmer because of Knowing this.

There just come points in a person's life when that direct Connection is a whole lot more Meaningful than everything else you've ever been through or learned in your entire life. Or at least that's how it was for me. Again, yes, Bible study is absolutely a great thing I'm all for it! But that Relationship is something I happen to realize that Abraham had with God before Bibles or even the Torah existed in the first place. It wasn't only faith in the stories of God he might have heard: it was Faith in the Relationship that God was establishing Directly with him. For me, this was much the same kind of experience. I guess that's all I'm saying here.

[Stan]

Here is my three step check list for 'those' within adventism..

1) The come in with a POWERFUL, Righteousness by Faith message, lives are changed.

2) We belong to a GREAT Church.... but then they explain why it is not, and why they are...

3) SEND us your tithe, we are the only ones doing God's will.

[Stan]

I am waiting for someone to ask "is this Hope International?"

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Hey, um, maybe I missed something. What did you mean by "'those' within Adventism"? Did you mean the cultists, like how to recognize them? Also, just to clarify regarding their specific message, as relates to the above 3 things:

1) Yeah, I guess I'd say they think they have a powerful, earth shattering message.

2) The earth shattering message is: the Adventist church is "ill" and needs them to fix it.

3) Not only did they not ask me for tithe, but after I gave it to them (still thinking they were Adventists, connected with the conference etc.), when things went south because I wouldn't give in to their pressure/demands, one of them actually tried to give it back, as if even the honest tithe money I'd given her hours before was somehow "dirty" because it came from me! Even before that, when I gave it to her, she acted like she didn't know what to do with it (this should have clued me in *groans*) and put it in her purse. True, we were out in a parking lot at the time, but she didn't take it right into the Adventist church that was next to the school who's gym the group had rented for the morning. Nor did she suggest that I take it in and look for "so and so" as the church treasurer to give it to.

Oh, and I almost forgot: they did, just prior to my asking questions about their group, mention some discontent regarding how the Adventist Conferences "only invest in successful ventures" and "only care about those ministries who rake in enough dough through tithes and offerings to be self-supporting." I can't speak to that accusation: I've never tried to start a church. I do wonder if at some point in the past, these people didn't start out as a group of "still-Adventists" who had a bee in their collective bonnet, who tried to work within the church to "change" it, but it didn't work, so they went solo. That's an accusatory guess, nothing more, but it is also a curiosity of mine that will never be satisfied, as I'm done having any further connection with them at all.

Also, no, these people didn't have any connection with anyone of the name "Hope International." I can say that I once did some volunteer work with "Living Hope International" in Portland, OR, back in 2000, and those were honest and great Adventist and non-Adventist people. The leaders were/are real SDAs with real hearts, who only ask for time/clothing donations/financial contributions very humbly, don't get mad when people don't give, etc. They fed (at the time) approximately 500+ homeless people every other Sunday morning on donations and their own buck alone, didn't proselytize anyone, had the Adventist Health Van come and treat people/do checkups, etc. Good people, and I have no idea if you were referring to them or not, but having spent much time with them, I'll stick up for them at the drop of a hat.

"Hope International" might be someone else, I don't know - never heard of 'm. But no, that wasn't the name of this group. I sincerely doubt that they've been heard of, as they seem to be a very localized and tiny group of mal-contents who have no better way of "fixing" the Adventist church than pulling on well-meaning/trusting Adventists the junk they pulled on me.