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[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Hey, I just signed back in here when I first remembered something that's probably of some importance to mention here. One of the leaders mentioned something to me about some camp-meetings in California, one during June and the other during next fall. She said they were "Adventist" but obviously they weren't. She told me that she could arrange for someone to give me rides. So, this does mean that they may not be so localized, and that there is at least one other small group of people in CA who are involved in this.

I don't personally assume that there are tons of these people either. Before we went to that park, she and the guy who were leading this thing out had both made it sound like we'd be meeting tons of people at the park, and really, there were only 2 other people who showed up. I don't believe anyone else was even invited, and I wonder if there was anyone else locally to invite. Honestly, my best guess is that there probably aren't even 10 people total involved in this, and that their idea of a "camp-meeting" is probably just everyone sharing a camping spot in some park somewhere in CA (no one told me where) where camping is allowed. Of course, that's just a guess. If that info is important to anyone here, I figured I should share it. Sorry I forgot about it until now.

Heh - no, I have NOOOO plans of attending! Oh me, oh my...

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Another quick note: these people also picked out every possible insecurity that a single woman with an Adventist background who's living with her parents could have, assumed that I had them, told me I had them, and tried to capitalize on those. Thing is, any normal, sane woman in my position in life would naturally have those insecurities, and wouldn't be normal, human, or have a heart if she didn't have them: it was easy for these people to assume that I had those. If I were in some other position in life, my insecurities would no doubt be different, yet I would still have them. Because I'm human. Anyway, so that's something else I'd like to add to the above list of ways of recognizing a cult or cultist: they play on your (common) "individualized" insecurities and try to make it seem like your fears will never go away completely until you let them do what they want to, to you.

As it is, all those insecurities have been magnified as a result of being with those people, and it's a LOT to try to work through. I was just fine before this happened. As it is, I've nearly had to rediscover what in the world it means to trust God to take care of things in my life. It's like these people put me back to square-1 or something. It's affecting every relationship in my life, even though I'm doing my best not to let it, and it's internally damaged me a LOT even though I've been trying to choose not to let that happen.

That's how warped, sick, and twisted it is for anyone who calls themselves a "Christian" even to say something simple-stupid such as "Well, maybe if you just did XYZ, you might get married sooner." I'll refrain from the profanities -- I'll let you fill in the blanks, as regards what I think of such statements that "well meaning" people make. I will say this: such people broadcast to the masses a very ugly side of themselves, and that they don't know how to control their own behavior, and truly, I do pity their spouses, as such people are often married. If I ever do choose to wed, it had better be to a kinder man than that (it was the male leader of this group who said something like that to me).

[Dr. Shane]

Been there, done that.

I am grateful for a very dear, patient church elder that was a loyal friend to me through that time. My experience wasn't just one visit but spanned nearly two years with the group. Ultimately it was Latin American Adventism that helped me sever my ties with the group. I never officially joined them or paid my tithe to them but it was a time of spiritual discovery for me and they were part of my spiritual path.

I will say that the liberal extremists in our church provide much foder for these extreme conservative elements. Much of what they claim is wrong with the church, is in fact wrong. But, IMO, they are simply the other extreme. Their solution is to throw the baby out with the bath water and what they replace it with is just as bad - but to the other extreme.

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Shane, I'm really sorry you were put through that, and for so long. I'm glad you are out of it now, and that you know your own personal rights and that they are always yours, without fear of God or other real Christians not Loving you should you do something differently than you were taught by well meaning people to do.

Hmm... I do agree with much of what you just said, after having gone through this. However, I'm still on the path of discovery myself, regarding this issue, so my opinions about it aren't set in stone. At the moment, the way I see it is this:

Controlling behavior is the result of insecurities within a person who sells themselves out to others, who doesn't trust others, who is not in control of themselves. This can happen to anyone, Liberal or Conservative.

It used to be that "conservative" only meant "my lifestyle choices are made by thinking first of the probable consequences to myself and others." And it used to be that "liberal" only meant "I'm a hippy-dude, I smoke pot, anything goes, free love and a geee-taaar!!!" Nowadays, our terms are so "gray area" that really, it's hard for me to even use them anymore. Sometimes it's easier to just use people's politics, by saying "Republican" or "Democrat." The people I was with could be called "Moderates" though the two we met at the park were definitely more "liberal" and the two leaders were definitely more "conservative."

In the end, to me, what's important, is that everyone here remember that we all always have the right to say "NO." Even if some law were created to change that, it wouldn't really change anything: the right to exercise personal freedoms within one's own personal space, regarding what's done to them and what isn't, is God-given and will never change. As regards consequences, that's where conservatives and liberals love to argue each other to the ground. Personally, I don't like such arguments, they give me a headache.

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

One thing that I think is a valuable lesson in all of this is the flip side...

Allowing God, through His Spirit and through Divinely Directed Bible study, to convict people of their sins, and to bring them to the Knowledge of His Love for them no matter what; this is completely valid, and is what should NOT be replaced by people trying to convict each other themselves, and then spin whatever webs of "holiness" around each other that they might, expecting whatever effects of that on each other that they might expect.

That is the difference between the Bible study that my best friend, Erik, gave me almost 2 years ago, and the wacked-out "healing" that those people last Sabbath tried to "produce" in me. Erik let God do the work, without (him, Erik) trying to guide me himself in my Growth Process. In fact, I really do believe that God Led Erik through the Bible as we studied it in the group study he had going. Erik just pointed me back to God and His Love for me - he didn't try to accuse nor "cure" me of anything. So, while people can be involved up to some degree in a person's coming into the Truth, really, it's not up to them: it's always and only up to God and the individual who's Growing. That's the difference. I thank God very much for Erik, for using him in my life that way: it's literally saved my life, not just Saved my Eternal Life.

And I really do find it disturbing that those people had the audacity to assume that they could take that away from me, take the place of that Growth Process that had already taken place, or make any decisions at all about what I should have next. It just really wasn't any of their business to begin with. The only way I see that God used them at all was to show me the utter extremes to which mental illness can go when it's mixed with religion - and that it's ok for me to not subject myself to that kind of thing.

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

"If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son." 1 John 5:9

Glad to just now find this, and realize that John and I would have made great friends

Hehehehehe

PS. I just did a quick study on 1 John 1, and it's really been helping me to come to grips with some things, and it's a lot easier to forgive the people who did this to me and move forward without so much hatred in my heart towards them. Good stuff, that book! I highly recommend it

[Dr. Shane]

The ones I was exposed to were of the Hope International root. That were not officially tied to Hope International but Our Firm Foundation was very popular among them.

[Gail]

The Camp meeting in California piqued something in me. That does sound familiar...

COG4E, I am really happy that you trusted us enough to share this experience and your thoughts! I hope that was helpful to you!

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Heh, well, I'll admit: the most helpful thing for me so far has been trying to figure out how to just Forgive, Forget, and Keep Moving...

Right now, I'm personally struggling a LOT to trust the people who've been in my life long before this ever happened. I've worked long and hard to trust them in the past, but I'm very weak right now and just am not able to put forth the energy to do that. No one's perfect, yet right now, it's like I just want everyone to kiss the ground I walk on or something, which is really messed up, and totally not my normal self, but that's just how I'm feeling right now. So that majorly needs prayer. It's like whatever happened with these people is almost like a disease that they spread around, just by acting that way themselves.

That kind of behavior just speaks to the selfish side of us all, and because I lost so much control over my situation for awhile, and was being pressured into giving up the rest, it's like I want to control everyone around me in my own situation or something. It's really ugly and I'm tired of it, but don't quite know how to just naturally be all "Ok, you can be however you want to, I'll love you anyway." It's just too hard for me even to try to do that: I start to, but it just gets messed up in the end. So yeah, I just need a LOT of prayer. I don't need to turn out like those cultists! For Heaven's sake...

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Just an update. It seems that the next step in healing from this, at least for me, is learning how to love others without expecting to be loved by them, even if they've said they love me in the past. It's like, emotionally, I'm having to relearn everything. I have no idea what comes after this, as far as my healing goes. I figured I'd note this step here for posterity's sake.

It's similar to what I posted yesterday, but the difference is in being strong enough to relearn how. Thank you for your prayers. God Hears.

[Clio]

Just an update. It seems that the next step in healing from this, at least for me, is learning how to love others without expecting to be loved by them, even if they've said they love me in the past. It's like, emotionally, I'm having to relearn everything. I have no idea what comes after this, as far as my healing goes. I figured I'd note this step here for posterity's sake.

It's similar to what I posted yesterday, but the difference is in being strong enough to relearn how. Thank you for your prayers. God Hears.

The next step is then putting that love into practice. It is a scary thing to simply allow His love to flow through you to those who don't "deserve" your love.

I have found in those times when I am tempted to grouse about how so-and-so hurt me, or when I realize I'm resenting someone because they didn't love me as much as I love them, or I allow myself to feel hurt because I did something for someone because I love them and they just blew me off or actively "betrayed" me, that when I recognize this, and call out to Jesus, He will open that channel within me that allows His love to flow and take my pain and resentment from me almost instantly.

I have lived 20+ years with someone who has treated me thus. And for the last 8 have been learning how to love even though that person doesn't "deserve" my love from the world's perception. For the last 3 years, since learning the lesson you are documenting here for posterity, I have been deliriously happy with Jesus as my Bridegroom and Husband in ways my earthly husband was unable to be.

That love, even when "undeserved" is what allows us to pray unselfishly for these people in our lives. And praying is the most loving thing you can do for someone. Especially a someone who can't imagine a true model of unconditional love existing. You become the silent conduit that demonstrates the undeniable truth of the possibility (no matter how imperfect our example is) of the existence of unconditional Love which saves.

I never thought to have the happiness in my life that is beginning to be nurtured in careful, delicate ways by my Beloved Bridegroom. But my earthly husband is beginning to reach out in ways I never thought possible, and Jesus is allowing him to fulfill things for me that Jesus has done heretofore.

Read Isaiah 58 COG4Ever and realize it is for you.

Clio

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Thank you, Clio. this means a LOT to me. It really does help me to put one foot in front of the next. Thank you for sharing your testimony. I'm very touched by it. I'm so glad God has come through for you (of course He has!) and also that your husband is starting to realize you really do love him, and is trusting you enough to start coming around. Thank you for setting a great example of how to do this. I'm not married myself, but I have close friends and we've all decided that we're imperfect yet Perfect in God's Eyes. And I too live with people in my home who don't love me with any real affection. Thank you again for sharing, and really, for understanding. *hugs*

[Clio]

Abba's blessing on you COG4ever. He provided you with a Bridegroom who will literally love you in the way you crave most deeply. Let Him in to share the intimacy and He will fill your Love resevoir so full that the tears will be come tears of joy rather than mourning.

He promises in Isaiah to exchange joy for mourning and beauty for ashes. And if Jesus is your Bridegroom and loves you so much He sings over you (Malachi I think... could be wrong...), then what does it matter what earthly loved ones think of you?

Do not forget, on this healing journey you are taking, that healing is not always sweet, peaceful, and painfree. The end result may be so, but the process of healing is not.

Think of the birthing process. A baby is born with tremendous pain, even for so positive an event. The mother goes through weeks of healing... including discomfort, pain, and adjustments. Incisions after surgery are painful while they heal and the patient is not sent home without anodynes for pain. Recovery from trauma wounds includes physical therapy, exercising the muscles and strengthening them. The new action is not a success the first time, but through ongoing repetition success and healing is achieved bit by bit.

:bighug:

[Gail]

Wow! Thank you for all the comments here. What a heartwarming thread, compassion being brought out of pain.

Thank you for being courageous enough to share!

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

You're welcome And thank you everyone for being so supportive I'm doing pretty good. I chose to go to a friend's family Bible study tonight, and I have to say, it was a great experience for me, and I really do feel my heart kinda "reconnecting" as it were. I really did need direct, in person contact with friends who like me, enjoy having me around, who are open-minded and grounded in Salvation, who really care, etc. I feel much more "alive" tonight. I don't know if I could have handled that earlier this week. In fact, I spent a good deal of my time being fairly "anti-social." I needed time to myself at first. But I seem to be ready for more direct socialization now. I'm naturally an outgoing, social person in the first place. So that helps. But there were a few days there when Internet-based discourse was really all I could seriously handle.

I honestly can't imagine what much younger people, especially kids, who've been through even worse, must go through after getting out of cult-related situations. What I went through was for 1 day, I wasn't physically harmed, and I didn't allow myself to be brainwashed (they tried, but failed, and were angry at their own failure to do this). It was a bad situation, but I also know it could have been much, much worse. It's hard enough to go through what I've been through: others who've had it worse I honestly do think should remain in our hearts and prayers. I know how easy it is to see something on the news, send up a quick prayer, and then get distracted with life and kinda forget about it until the next time it pops up in the news. And then forget again later on, especially if the person/people involved make it out alive and seem to be getting on with their lives. It comes off seeming like it's not a big deal, 'cause the news downplays it.

I had no idea how great an affect something even as "not-as-bad-as-it-could-have-been" as what I went through can have on a person, even when they try HARD not to let it change them or ruin their day. It really is somewhat of a big deal, and I'm so thankful for all the support you guys have shown me. I'm asking here that, even when it sounds like a cult-related situation you hear about has been "resolved," please keep those people in prayer anyway. I can only imagine that the aftermath for people in worse situations can only be that much greater, and take much, much more time and work to get through.

[LifeHiscost]

As regards consequences, that's where conservatives and liberals love to argue each other to the ground. Personally, I don't like such arguments, they give me a headache.

I'm with you, Child. Leaving the consequences to Jesus is the best policy when there is any doubt as to what response might be appropriate. It never hurts to ask for the Holy Spirit to control the heart and plant His fruit.

"But the fruit of the [Holy] Spirit [the work which His presence within accomplishes] is love, joy (gladness), peace, patience (an even temper, forbearance), kindness, goodness (benevolence), faithfulness,

Gentleness (meekness, humility), self-control (self-restraint, continence). Against such things there is no law that can bring a charge]." Gal 5:22,23 AMP

Keep looking up!!

[LifeHiscost]

Thank you for your prayers. God Hears.

Amen, and answers with just what we need according to His will.

"Let us then fearlessly and confidently and boldly draw near to the throne of grace (the throne of God's unmerited favor to us sinners), that we may receive mercy [for our failures] and find grace to help in good time for every need [appropriate help and well-timed help, coming just when we need it]." Hebrews 4:16 AMP

"Now to Him Who, by (in consequence of) the [action of His] power that is at work within us, is able to [carry out His purpose and] do superabundantly, far over and above all that we [dare] ask or think [infinitely beyond our highest prayers, desires, thoughts, hopes, or dreams]--" Ephesians 3:20 AMP

Blessings!!

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Thank you for pointing me to God He has been Impressing on me late tonight that I really do have to just "let go" of my [control over] my life and let Him have that control (i.e., lose my life in order to find it, I forget where that's found). In a way, that's kind of what happened in this experience, yet the situation at hand was so distracting that it was only for part of that time, as I said, when I was in the car, that I was truly Aware of it. The rest of the time, it was much more subconscious. But it was always the main theme of all of it: who would I let control me? Me, them, or God? I made my own decision, and in part of the arguing with them, I did point out that God was already in charge of my life anyway, and that they didn't know my situation well enough to know what I did or didn't need in the first place, etc.

And I did note that they did not manifest the fruits of the Spirit in their dealings with me, at all. Nor really even in the way they talked about the Adventist church. Everyone's been hurt, everyone's seen problems, etc., but that doesn't mean that anyone should be so conceited as to think that they can "fix" the "ills" of any church all on their own, with their own methods, etc. Rather, it would seem to me that if I or anyone else has a problem with others or the church, it's best to just take it in prayer to God, and then let go and let Him Work. If someone has wronged us or if we have wronged them personally, then we are told in the Bible to go and work it out with them as best is possible, etc. But to lie to people, try to manipulate them, try to coerce them, try to Spiritually rape them... Even to badmouth them making a lot of subjective and assumptive statements about them (rather than facts-only, objective statements, and only when necessary, and hopefully, erring on the side of kindness): I don't see how that's the right course of action, nor how it will fix the church "one member at a time."

Even on a corporate level, it's my current belief, after having gone through this, that it's not right for one person or one small group of people to say "the church has a problem, and I/we're going to fix it." The problem is that there's no "I" in "God." Sure, we can be there for each other! We can answer each other's questions when they are asked (and not coerced or guilt-tripped out, or otherwise manipulated out, of each other) - as best as possible! But it really does seem to me that rather than all of us answering to each other on such an intimate level, it's best that we only take it so far - and only as the Spirit really does lead us - and then just let God do His thing. Anything else is coming off to me as if we don't even Believe in His Power and Ability to do His own work!

While we should be able to Know that we can rely on each other for support, it's just becoming a serious Belief of mine that every good ministry out there should be focused on Him alone, and not on each other or ourselves, as regards the ministry of "help" or "fixing." It's one thing to ask each other for help, it's another thing to force "help" onto those who didn't ask for it and don't want it, or to get angry and continue trying to coerce them when they refuse it. That doesn't "help" anyone. It just gives the control-freaks a little "high" as they think about all that they've "accomplished." And it really does give off the wrong impression about what it means to turn to God.

In the end, I chose God, and I'm choosing Him now. I'm choosing to learn what it means to let go of everything in my life and let Him worry about it. That's a choice I made before, as best I knew how, about a year and a half ago, and then made again when I knew more about it, a year ago in March. But it seems that I'm being Called yet once again to make that choice, on a much deeper and more intimate level than before. The thing is, that's not a scary choice for me to make, as I Know the One I'm Choosing In fact, it's a serious Relief to just let Him worry about things. Sometimes, I think too much: now I feel like letting Him do the thinking, the figuring, the worrying... Heh - I kinda think that's probably a good deal of what it means to "have the mind of Christ."

Oh, and what's great to realize is that my sins are taken care of anyway, so in the end, it honestly doesn't matter to me at all what happens to me anyway. Why should it?

[LifeHiscost]

Thank you for pointing me to God

[Jeannieb43]

Dear COG4E...

[is your real name Rosy, by any chance?]

This thread tells me a lot about you, and it takes me back to the days when I was your age, and when I was first starting out on my own after having lived at home all my life. You're obviously a very trusting and kind young woman who is open to making new friendships at church and elsewhere.

That's a wonderful place to make friends, certainly. However, there are a few precautions to take. First, please never go anywhere with a stranger in a car, even if it's to discuss religious things. You need to have your own transportation with you at all times. If you can't manage that, just tell the visitor you'll meet with them some other time; you have another commitment for today [that commitment could be with your friend or whoever brought you to church -- or even a commitment to the public transportation schedule]. But once you leave the safety of your church property you have no idea where you'll end up. Fortunately, your escapade this time took you to a public park. And, as you say, you could have physically escaped by taking public transportation. But that kind of thing is scary in today's world.

It seems obvious that one of the cult's tactics was for a male in the cult to approach a single woman pretending it was for a social meeting of some type, and that way to learn if she's not married. They then can prey on you much more easily if they know your husband won't show up and surprise them.

Don't give strangers your address or phone number. Even sexual predators can masquerade as sincere Bible students.

What I, as a single woman, tend to do is to be friendly with such persons while I'm still on the church steps. But once I hear the slightest hint of controversy with our beliefs, I leave them with a friendly wave, thank them for their interest, and get into my car and drive off. They won't waste any more time with me, because their training tells them I'm not a potential candidate.

Please forgive me for giving you unsolicited advice. [i'm a mother and grandmother, so it's just part of my personality!] But just as you can never convince the Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons who ring your doorbell at home, these cult members will never see the truth from anything we can say. It's not our duty to bring them to the Lord. At least that's my take on it. I'm too protective of my own life when I'm alone, to try to evangelize anyone under those circumstances.

God bless you. He certainly has protected you through that bad experience.

[Stan]

Such great wisdom... Thank you Jeannie

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Thanks for the advice, Jeanie. It's good, and I'm glad that it's added here for everyone to note.

I'd like to clarify a couple of things. I had no intention of evangelizing anyone. I simply thought I was going for a nice Sabbath afternoon jaunt in a park with some fellow Adventists, who seemed to have been stable members of "their" church for longer than I've been alive. They put on a very good act.

Being that when I go to church, it's just about always alone, I've gotten used to meeting new people at their church (when I'm the new person, like when I've moved or if I'm checking out a church I've not been to before) and having to have some measure of faith that they aren't complete lunatics. I've been through this a number of times before while making friends with people, and until Sabbath before last, it was never a problem. People are people, but I've never had anyone, before this, turn out to be some kind of cultists who'd infiltrated an Adventist church-campus, claiming to be current Adventists. I'd never heard of such a thing. In this case, it wasn't my church that they visited. I was visiting "their" church, upon their invitation, after meeting them at another church the night before.

Also, no, my real name isn't Rosy. I'd prefer not to give out my real name.