Conservatism shutting out our fellow men

[Woody]

"It grieves the Spirit of God when conservatism shuts man away from his fellow man, especially when it is found among those who profess to be His children. Christ came to give to the world an example of what perfect humanity might be when united with divinity ... justice could be exercised in forgiving the repenting transgressor without violating its integrity" 1SM 260-1

"Ellen White observes that "as real spiritual life declines" people tend to "become conservative, and seek to avoid discussion" and "worship they know not what." Ministry Oct. 1989

[Raphael]

People with dynamic spiritual lives arise from painful struggles while later generations decline due to lack of it. Some last Sabbath school lesson mentioned that spiritual prowess is not inheritable. Soo regrettable.

But I believe that if we delve into the powers of God through prayer, not only individually, especially collectively then may we witness and experience firsthand Gods presence and gain dynamic spiritual lives. I am still on that journey. Please pray for me too.

God bless,

Raphael

[David Koot]

Well, Redwood, on its face that would appear to be a strong indictment of theological conservatives, as well as giving the author's imprimatur to liberals! However . . . one must also study what the author intended by her use of the word 'conservative,' AND what she had to say about what we now refer to as the 'liberal' mindset theologically. One might be surprised in doing so.

If you look at her example, EGW was a staunch conservative theologically--as we now use the word.

Dave

[Woody]

David ... That could only come from a conservative. And as we all know from the conservative thread ... I am a "classic" conservative as some described me. Actually I find Ellen Whites beliefs and actions to be rather liberal in many ways.

[David Koot]

That could only come from a conservative.

Not necessarily.

As for EGW, she did repeatedly emphasize the importance of standing by the landmarks, the doctrinal underpinnings of the Second Advent Movement--not to attempt to change them or budge them an inch. That is a statement of 'classic conservatism.'

[Woody]

Yep ... That fits me.

[David Koot]

And here I had you pegged as a card-carrying liberal. Oh, well. What can I say?

[Gail]

I think the key is to be found in these words that Redwood quoted:

Quote:

when conservatism shuts man away from his fellow man

Is this how the Lord operates? If you see this happening, it might be time to stand still and take some time for reflection on the results of words and actions

Talking about EGW, personally I find her writings revolutionary (just a side note)

[Woody]

Quote:

"when conservatism shuts man away from his fellow man "

Gail ... you gave me credit for the above statement but I can't take credit for it. They are the words of Ellen White that I quoted and the topic of this thread. Perhaps you didn't mean they were my words but I wanted to make sure.

[David Koot]

I If you see this happening, it might be time to stand still and take some time for reflection on the results of words and actions

[Woody]

David ... The key here is you stated the "doctrines". I believe in all the doctrines of my church or I would not be in this church.

But when it comes to Ellen White ... we have to decide which Ellen White we are talking about. Are we talking about the Ellen White who did not believe in the Sabbath or Tithe ? (Tithing didn't come until 1879).Or ... are we talking about the legalistic Ellen. OR The grace based and filled Ellen? She grew in her faith and understanding of the Bible just like all of us.

So ... which era of Ellen White do you believe in. I believe in the fullest Ellen White possible. The early days of Ellen White I do not believe in. And she wouldn't want you to either. It is all there for us to witness to her growth. But she would prefer you listen to her growth in knowledge rather than her infantile understandings.

Ellen White believed strongly in the words ... Study to show thyself approved unto God. And she did this over her life. WE can see the results.

[Gail]

Redwood, if you look back to my post you will see that I said that you had quoted...

[Woody]

My oversight. Sorry.

[David Koot]

The early days of Ellen White I do not believe in. And she wouldn't want you to either.

I certainly do. My favorite books authored by her are Early Writings and Spiritual Gifts. Those books do not portray someone who is legalistic. They portray someone who is on fire for God, and someone whom God entrusted with the prophetic calling at a young age.

[David Koot]

If you see this happening, it might be time to stand still and take some time for reflection on the results of [your] words and actions

Since we are talking here about what EGW has said, she does indeed have something to say about this. In the book, Thoughts from the Mount of Blessing, she comments on the effect of the gospel. In fact, she says that the gospel does not bring peace, but a sword--as Jesus said. There is hostility between the world and believers. She says, in a number of places, that a faithful Christian witness will arouse the hostility and persecution of the world. She goes on to say that we should beware when all people speak well of us.

One solution is to be like Aaron, and make peace with the world. The world will love those who do so. But, it is not pleasing to God. In Aaron's case, it resulted in the death of thousands.

I seem to see a little editing of your post, Gail. Regardless of that, each person who has a sense of responsibility and care for souls must prayerfully seek God's guidance in how best to approach a given situation. People will not always agree with what someone else does, or how someone else approaches things. Being a true Christian is not a popularity contest. It means doing one's utmost to be faithful to God and to do what is right in the eyes of God, regardless of the cost.

Dave

[Gail]

David, what I gathered from the quote was that she was addressing not the effects of the gospel, but conservatism which is shutting away someone from his/her fellow man.

In our church we have employed missionsaries, young folk, who are quite conservative. They are conservative, yes- not only do they present the gospel, but they have revolutionized the church with their community presentations which include cooking schools, home remedy classes, small group Bible studies, etc.

It is refreshing to see young people with such values. They do not present a watered down gospel. Without saying a word you can tell that they represent the Lord, because they believe that their words and their actions will either glorify Him or not.

In saying that, these young people have (collectively, for they are a team) a winning disposition that inspires people to want to live for God. Because they study their Bibles they have fresh ideas for Scriptures that we have read before. They have brought reform to the church in a way that is positive and exciting

And- they are very conservative, but their conservatism doesn't mean that they argue or are mean-spirited. They have no irritating attitude. They are friendly and peaceable.

I have known people in my life who have been difficult to be around (Lord knows I could never live with such) whose conservatism makes me want to avoid them. And I am not against conservatism per se. I have many conservative friends

Thinking upon it I guess it might have to do with how much love is mixed in with the message and comes through with the messenger

[Gail]

It makes me think of the verse about the life of Christ, that said that he grew in stature and in favour with God and man.

Christ had with him a sword, the sword of God's word. But He didn't allow Himself to be pulled into debates and arguments. He was personable, he was friendly. He spoke words that drew masses, words that burned in people's hearts to make them want to be with Him.

[Woody]

Quote:

Thinking upon it I guess it might have to do with how much love is mixed in with the message and comes through with the messenger

Gail ... this is so important. Some thing they witness with rebuke. But no matter how much truth you have ... if you do not come across with LOVE ... then your truth will be of no effect.

[Tom Wetmore]

...But when it comes to Ellen White ... we have to decide which Ellen White we are talking about...

So ... which era of Ellen White do you believe in.... It is all there for us to witness to her growth. But she would prefer you listen to her growth in knowledge rather than her infantile understandings...

Contrary to the previously asserted perception of EGW as being theologically conservative, the progression, substantial change and growth over the course of her lifetime evidence someone who clearly was not conservative. By definition, to be conservative is to be strongly resistant to change, progress, new ideas and methods of doing things, firmly sticking to old ideas and traditions. Clearly EGW does not fit that definition.

Beyond that, understanding the time in which she lived and her own background, the progressiveness of what she advocated becomes more evident.

Also of interest is her statement that the pharisees that she characterizes as conservative viewed Jesus as being far too liberal!

David's reaction to your posted quote is quite similar to the reaction I got from some ultra-conservative Adventists regarding that same quote along with her positive quotes about being liberal. I was told that the words she used had a different meaning, perhaps even the opposite, in the 19th century! Incidentally, that prompted me to check the Oxford English Dictionary to see if there has been an etymological shift in the basic meaning of these words in the past 150 years. Bottom line - no, they meant the same then as now. Only the times and issues change.

Tom

[David Koot]

In our church we have employed missionsaries, young folk, who are quite conservative. They are conservative, yes- not only do they present the gospel, but they have revolutionized the church with their community presentations which include cooking schools, home remedy classes, small group Bible studies, etc.

It is refreshing to see young people with such values. They do not present a watered down gospel. Without saying a word you can tell that they represent the Lord, because they believe that their words and their actions will either glorify Him or not.

In saying that, these young people have (collectively, for they are a team) a winning disposition that inspires people to want to live for God. Because they study their Bibles they have fresh ideas for Scriptures that we have read before. They have brought reform to the church in a way that is positive and exciting

And- they are very conservative, but their conservatism doesn't mean that they argue or are mean-spirited. They have no irritating attitude. They are friendly and peaceable.

[David Koot]

It makes me think of the verse about the life of Christ, that said that he grew in stature and in favour with God and man.

[David Koot]

David's reaction to your posted quote is quite similar to the reaction I got from some ultra-conservative Adventists regarding that same quote along with her positive quotes about being liberal. I was told that the words she used had a different meaning, perhaps even the opposite, in the 19th century!

I have both the third and fourth ed. of the OED. Based on the definition of the word, EGW was very conservative in a number of areas: Bible doctrine, inspiration of Scripture, lifestyle, baptismal standards, dress and adornment, etc. As I read through the Testimonies, and see her use such terms as 'stupid conservatives,' I found that the issue had to do with the advancement of God's work and the unwillingness to expend means or embark on new projects--for which cause she took it upon herself, at times, to borrow funds privately to finance such ventures, and ended up dying several thousand dollars in debt!

Dave

[Bravus]

It's true that sometimes the gospel will cause us to take unpopular stands. But some people seem to get confused and think that the fact that their stand is unpopular is evidence that it's the gospel.

[Neil D]

Quote:

for which cause she took it upon herself, at times, to borrow funds privately to finance such ventures, and ended up dying several thousand dollars in debt!

this is news to me... as i understand it, she funded her funeral, and final affairs and was marginally to the good. I don't remember how much to the good, but it was no where near a thousand dollars left over....let alone the "thousands of dollars" in debt that you have claimed.

[David Koot]

FWIW I read, some years ago, her will and saw the description of the estate's assets. A few specifics I recall were that Willie was given responsibility for her unpublished manuscripts, and that Edson was awarded $3,000. It has been awhile, but I seem to recall the statement that her debts would be paid by royalties to be received by the estate.

Dave