Three Gods... or one...

[Stan]

How would you explain the concept of the Trinity (Adventist Version) to a Muslim who rejects Christianity over that..

It is clear, that our concept is not the same as most other Christians...

Thoughts?

[olger]

I would hand him a three leaf clover, and use that as an opening illustration.

As to the term trinity, I would not use it at all. Godhead is ok.

The word trinity is next to the word rapture in the Bible.

oG

[skyblue888]

"For there are three who bear witness in Heaven: the Father, the Word (Christ), and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one." 1 John 5:7.

"There are three living persons of the heavenly trio." Evangelism, p.615.

Should we avoid using the word "trio" as well just because it is not used in the Bible? The word "millenium" cannot be found in the Bible and yet we use it.

There will be a rapture at the second coming but it won't be a secret one. So one can speak of the rapture just as one can speak of the millenium or the trinity even if these exact words are not used in the Bible.

The Muslim do not believe that Jesus is God in any sense of the word. So how can they even begin to consider the concept of a triune God? Before they can agree to it, they must see that Christ is God in the highest sense. You would want to start with them as you would with a Jehovah's Witness.

"Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God." Rom.9:5.

[Stan]

1 John 5:7 is one of those text that is not considered original. ( I think it is that one, I have been wrong before and often)

There is only one God, we all agree with that..

Need something that a muslim could grasp, not so much that we could.

If God was up there, and down here, did they talk/disagree with each other?

Am told it is easier to understand in Hebrew...

[David Koot]

1 John 5:7 is one of those text that is not considered original.

[Parade Orange]

a long long time ago in a galaxy far far away there lived

a Family.

Three Beings with all power,knowledge and presence!

They have been together from eternity past.

They didnt have to sit or eat or sleep or drink.

They were all three self existant yet totally enraptured with each other always looking in each others faces and radiated love to the ceaseless spaces.

That love couldnt be contained and Had to go somewhere!!!

They wanted to share that love and wanted to create a universe that would house the whole family.

[Parade Orange]

But before they could do this they knew the beings they would create couldnt fathom their existance nor their absolute love.

So they set up a hiarchy of sorts to show thru the ceasless ages to come their glory and wisdom and love to all their creation.

One of the three would be the figure head who sits on the throne whose light is unapproachable. God the Father- Mighty God.

the second of the three Would take on the role as the go between.

He would be the identified with the creation. God the son- The Arc angel Michael

And the third equal of the Family would be inside all of the creation. Omnipresent. God the Holy Spirit- The conscience and influence in all the hearts.

For the finite creation cannot fully comprehend nor conceive the Total GOD Family in all eternity to come EVER!!

God over us

God beside us

God inside us

[Parade Orange]

So of course They had to create a Home for the creation.

They didnt create for themeselves.

They made heaven(all the comforts) for all the beings they would create.

They created the Throne for the Father to sit on.

water of life will flow out of course.

Light will shine out of course

Their power cannot be hardly contained on a material plane.

The water of life sprouts a double tree with fruit that enables u to live forever.

of course!

The beings they would create are not eternal nor have immortality.

[Parade Orange]

The God Family cannot be defined but If we can ask for a definition we would have...

LOVE as their center being for the answer.

Everything and anything they create or do is guilded by LOVE.

PERIOD!

The love is so strong it is present in all their creation.

It is so palatable that Light-PURE LIGHT envelopes their presence. that LIGHT that emmiates is actually the LOVE they have for us.

They wanted to create cause of LOVE.

it cannot be contained to the three.

It demanded -DEMANDED to share LOVE with something besides them three.

And Their LOVE demands that their creation would have to have the choice to love or not.

LOVE is a choice. The Three in One God Family chose to LOVE cause they know in their eternal wisdom that anything less would corrupt and destroy the universe.

There was no choice but to create beings who can reason and think for themselves.

[Parade Orange]

In ages past they knew if they would have to create beings with their own consience and reason that distrust and fear would raise the ugliest head.

They knew that when it happens they would have toaddress and secure the universe from further harm.

To the awful extent to sacrifice one of the God Family to ensure its SAFE ETERNAL existance of the whole Creation Family.

Their LOVE is so strong for each other that each one of the God family volunteered to go cause of the LOVE for their future created beings.

When JESUS (before he became subordinate (in the hiarchy) to the Father Figure head chose to walk with the angels in the Land they would create (heaven) He knew HE was going to also walk with the lesser creation(humans). So by stepping into the role as the GO BETWEEN(ambassadore) He knew what He would be doing

for the Pleasure of always walking as equal(somewhat) to His Own created beings.

[Parade Orange]

GOD what a thought!

[Parade Orange]

God cannot be contained on the Throne.

God cannot be contained walking with all of creation side by side as a friend.

God cannot even be contained inside of all his created beings hearts.

Gods Knowledge and wisdom and glory and power and love can not be contained inside of time and eternity.

It will ALWAYS be studied

It will ALWAYS be marveled

It will always be experienced

but never

NEVER

be fully understood completely by the keenest minds!

It will never cease to amaze the redeemed and the unfallen thru out eternity

[Parade Orange]

but I digress

what was the question again?

[Morning Glory]

WOW!!! Thank you so much for putting that down in print!! I LOVE your analogy and way of explaining the Godhead. It (the Godhead) is a concept that I have always struggled with, yet the explaination that you gave just seemed to flow and makes such good sense!!

Thank you for your deep, insightful, honest word picture of our God/Family!!

Morning Glory

[skyblue888]

"Above, beneath, beyond, abides Infinite love, working out all things to accomplish the good pleasure of His goodness." Education, p.134.

"Wherever we turn, in the physical, the mental, or the spiritual realm; in whatever we behold, apart from the blight of sin, the knowledge of God is revealed. Whatever line of investigation we pursue, with a sincere purpose to arrive at truth, we are brought in touch with the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all. The mind of man is brought into communion with the mind of God, the finite with the Infinite. The effect of such communion on body and mind and soul is beyond estimate. In this communion is found the highest education. It is God's own method of development. 'Acquaint now thyself with Him'' is His message to mankind." Education, p.14.

"The deepest students of science are constrained to recognize in nature the working of Infinite power." Education, p.134.

"There is in nature the continual working of the Father and the Son." Patriarchs and Prophets, p.114.

"Where shall I go from Your presence? Where shall I flee from Your Spirit?" Psalm 137:9.

[Clio]

I'm not sure what the question was anymore, but Parade Orange, that was beautiful!

It captures in words how I experience all Three of the Elohim. They are separate and distinct beings, I *know* that. Having heard the Father once, I will never forget HIS Voice. But how I experience Jesus, my Beloved, is totally different, and the Holy Spirit gives me Abba bumples... He's so happy....

And yet they are totally One, in mind, purpose, power, presence.

I struggle to find words to convey what you have written so clearly and beautifully.

I think you may have had Help.

Clio

[Parade Orange]

Skyblue Praise GOD amen amen

and Clio

Thanku for your words to me- they mean much to me!

Its hard to put in words what goes thru my mind- If u r blessed its cause of His Illumination that fills in the gaps of my paultry words

[Parade Orange]

Morning Glory!

Praise be to our God if u see Who and What the Trinity is more clearly!

He is good.

[skyblue888]

I thought I would share these two statements which plainly tell us what it is Christ relinquished for ever and what it is He relinquished only for a while.

"He clothed His divinity with humanity. He was all the while as God, but He did not appear as God. He veiled the demonstration of Deity, which had commanded the homage, and called forth the admiration, of the universe of God. He was God while upon earth, but He divested Himself of the form of God, and it its stead took the form of and fashion of a man. He walked the earth as a man. For our sakes He became poor, that we through His poverty might be made rich.. He laid aside His glory and His majesty. He was God, but the glories of the form of God He for a while relinquished." 5 B.C.1126.

"He veiled His divinity with the garb of humanity, but He did not part with His divinity... He had not exchanged His divinity for humanity; but He had clothed His divinity in humanity." 5 B.C.1128.

On onother forum someone was saying that Christ parted with His divinity for ever!!!

p.s. But the thought that Christ parted with the form of God for ever is quite a thought, isn't it? His sacrifice did not begin in Gethsemane!

"It is the privilege of every believer in Christ to possess His nature, a nature far above that which Adam and Eve forfeited by transgression." Upward Look, p.18. Thus it is written: "Christ places His own merits upon man, and thus elevates him, in the scales of moral value, with God." E.G. White, Our Father Cares, p.121.

Now Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God in His glorified humanity. His humanity is clothed with the glories of the form of God and this is the glory which will be upon the redeemed! Thanks be unto God for His unfathomable gift! Thus "Christ looks upon His people as the reward of all His suffering, His humiliation, and His love, and the supplement of His glory--Christ, the great Center from which radiates all glory." Testimonies to Ministers, p.18,19.

Supplement: addition

Isn't that mind-blowing?

[Parade Orange]

SKYBLUE!!!

o yes yes!

thanku thanku

I always need to be reminded that for the JOY of seeing me redeemed- hid His eternal GLORY and submitted Himself to such cruel sinners that hurt our dear LORD and died a shameful death.

What a dear Savior we serve!!!!

amen amen

[skyblue888]

God bless you Parade! What you said reminded me of these wonderful words:

"We see in the midst of the throne One bearing in hands and feet and side the marks of the suffering endured to reconcile man to God. We see a Father, infinite, dwelling in light unapproachable, yet receiving us to Himself through the merits of His Son. The cloud of vengeance that threatened only misery and despair, in the light reflected from the cross reveals the writing of God; Live, sinner, live! ye penitent, believing souls, live! I have paid a ransom." Acts of the Apostles, p.333.

Do you see why with great enthusiasm Jesus said, "I know that His commandment is: Live forever!" John 12:50.

The Psalmist understood it: "For out of Zion the Lord commanded the blessing--even life forevermore." Psalm 133:3.

Since "every command is a promise," John wrote, "This is the promise that He has promised us--eternal life." 1 John 1:25.

[skyblue888]

We are familiar with expressions like, "Long live the king! Long live the king!" But the word of man is powerless to make the king live forever! But when God says to the believing sinner, "Live, o sinner, live, even forevermore!" John 12:50; Psalm 133:3. Then that man will live forever if he clings to that word as the Voice of God speaking to him! And he will continue to feed upon every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

Too many of us read the Scriptures and receive the words of God as written merely. The written word of God cannot impart life to us. It can only reveal our utterly helpless condition. "The letter kills." 2 Cor.3:7. But when we read the Scriptures and recieve them as the Voice of God speaking to us individually, then His words and commands impart power, they beget life, even a new life in Christ Jesus through the Holy Spirit and the life thus received is in like manner sustained, by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Matt.4:4; Prov.4:20-22; John 6:63,68.

[Raphael]

I have had such conversations on that matter since the 80s, being here in a Muslim world. First never start off by quoting anything, it will only get worse, cause they will quote back, commonly, with their limited knowledge of their own belief. You see, most of them just follow what ever their human figure of influence dictates. Rather explain that the person name Jesus is a person that fills in a certain role pertained infinite ages ago in the bible.You may take out that person, fine, but the role still remains to be filled. So fortunate that the story of salvation requiring a savior to die in our stead may only be found in Christianity. Then you may proceed further to explain why such a role is needed. Now this part may be difficult, because explaining the true meaning of perfection that requires annihilation (or the needed death) for imperfection due to perfection is by experience difficult to grasp.

I like to say that as you would clean up your house and then get rid of its trash by burning it, so is the same with God cleaning up His universe then burning up its trash. The only difference is that there is no life (commonly) in household trash compared to evil living creatures being trashed in hell. I like to mention also how God is not a vengeful Being rather He is just cleaning house as any household wife would do. Trash in hell just happens to have life lending to the word 'kill', murder or other words of horrifying or negative impressions.

Its rather difficult to explain the meaning of the concept of perfection especially among others, where they (Muslims) accept and believe God created angels with only obedient natures, spiritual spooks like ghosts or what they call 'jin' with wild natures and humanity with the combination of both. They will never conclude any of the created beings mentioned above to be in any away imperfect..

On the other hand they are so easily subdued by acts of kindness. A close relative here who has converted and built 39 churches has done it through charity or free clinics. Acts of kindness.

May God bless,

Raphael

[Ron Lambert]

I have engaged in Internet Forum discussions with conservative Jews, one in particular who was very articulate and persistent. It was interesting to learn the way she deals with texts like Psalms 110:1 (she claimed David's Lord was Abraham). But one of her main refrains was accusing Christians of being polytheists, deriding our claim that God can be three and yet one. All the usual Christian explanations left her unimpressed. So finally, even though we are counselled not to speculate about the relation of the members of the Trinity, I had to offer her something, which at least she could only shrug off, not deride:

God is too big to fit within the universe, and too eternal to fit within time. This reality of God we call the Father.

God also must permeate all space and time, to uphold His creation, enforce the physical laws He has ordained, and give continuing breath to every living thing. This reality of God we call the Holy Spirit.

God desires to fellowship with the creatures He has made, so He must project Himself into a finite form like His creatures to do this. This reality of God we call the Son. When fellowshipping with the angels, as a brother of the angels, God took the form of an angel, and was called Michael, the archangel. He was not a created being, He was truly God, flying among them as the chief of the angels (as His title, archangel, means; Michael means "Who is like God"). When it became necessary to ransome the fallen race of Adam, the Son combined human nature with Himself by means of the Incarnation, and became the New Adam, the one we call Jesus Christ, and He walked among us as our Friend, Elder Brother, and Redeemer.

My apologies to all who feel I shouldn't even have attempted this explanation. But I felt I had to say something.

[Parade Orange]

Raphael

Thanku for telling us!

and SkyBlue!

where did u come from?

U share like u walk thru His goodness everyday!