Moderators John317 Posted April 19, 2007 Moderators Posted April 19, 2007 "For there are three who bear witness in Heaven: the Father, the Word (Christ), and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one." 1 John 5:7. "There are three living persons of the heavenly trio." Evangelism, p.615. Should we avoid using the word "trio" as well just because it is not used in the Bible? The word "millenium" cannot be found in the Bible and yet we use it. There will be a rapture at the second coming but it won't be a secret one. So one can speak of the rapture just as one can speak of the millenium or the trinity even if these exact words are not used in the Bible. The Muslim do not believe that Jesus is God in any sense of the word. So how can they even begin to consider the concept of a triune God? Before they can agree to it, they must see that Christ is God in the highest sense. You would want to start with them as you would with a Jehovah's Witness. "Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God." Rom.9:5. Most SDA working with Muslims and having success with them (i.e., seeing them convert to Christ) start with the things they are most interested in, such as the health message and the Parousia, or Second Coming. Many are also open to the Sabbath. First get their trust and convince them that you are a friend and that you respect them. Show a genuine interest in their beliefs. You are right about the Muslims not believing in Jesus as God or even as the Son of God. The Koran says anyone is lying who says Allah had a son. Yet, interestingly enough, the Koran says Mary was a virgin when Jesus was born. I would show them first that the Bible can be trusted based on the fulfillment of the prophecies, both about the nations and about the first coming and the life and death of the Messiah. Once they see that the Bible is God's word-- understanding that the Koran itself contains no real prophecies as such-- they are much more likely to believe what it says about who Jesus Christ is. The word Trinity is not found in the Bible but that is totally irrelvant. The important thing is that the concept of the Trinity is found in many places in the Bible. 1 John 5:7 has virtually no manuscript evidence to support it and without question was not part of the original. No ancient Greek manuscripts contain it. Only four Greek manuscripts have it, and none of these are older than the twelve century, and the other three date from the 14th, 15th and 16th centuries. It was no doubt originally a gloss, or somthing written in a margin that worked its way into the main text. Even during the Trinitarian controversies, no one used it as a defense of the doctrine, which it's hard to see why they didn't if it existed at that time. On the other hand, if the text was in the original, it is difficult to account for its omission in all the hundreds of NT manuscripts. The earliest instance of the passage being quoted as a part of the actual text of the Epistle is in a fourth century Latin treatise entitled Liber Apologeticus, which is attributed to a Spanish heretic Priscillian, who died about 385. By the fifth century, it began to find its way into more and more manuscriptis of the Latin Vulgate. But as I say, it was not until the 12th century that it was added to the first Greek manuscript. It's in our King James Version because it was translated from Erasmus's Greek Text, and he (spineless man) unhappily added it to his Greek text because of a promise he made to add it if he could be shown one Greek manuscript containing 1 John 5: 7. One or two late manuscripts were produced and Erasmus was compelled to add it based on his promise to do so. (See SDA Bible Commentary on 1 John 5:7.) Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
skyblue888 Posted April 19, 2007 Posted April 19, 2007 Over the years I have heard those who question the validity of 1 John 5:7. I only have Bible Commentary Vol.7a and in it Mrs. White has no comment whatsoever on this verse. Did you mean to say that the info in your last post came from the SDA Bible Commentary? Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
David Koot Posted April 19, 2007 Posted April 19, 2007 Skyblue, I can answer that. What John317 is referring to is the facts which have been discovered. The manuscripts themselves do not contain the verse. I did not realize that it showed up THAT late! I thought it had been added during the Trinitarian crisis which took quite some time to deal with (and, in the end, Justinian sent his best general, Belisarius, to aid the pope in crushing the Arian tribes. The Ostrogoths had entered the Eternal City, and the pope called for help.) It was not until the three Arian nations had been defeated, that the Trinitarian view finally prevailed. That was sometime during the 6th century. So, the info comes from the archaeological discovery of the manuscripts themselves, not from the commentary. Primary evidence, old top, primary evidence. Dave Quote
skyblue888 Posted April 19, 2007 Posted April 19, 2007 Interesting, indeed! If this is true, I can see why the anti trinitarians would use that to build their case! :) Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
David Koot Posted April 19, 2007 Posted April 19, 2007 Interesting, indeed! If this is true, I can see why the anti trinitarians would use that to build their case! There is abundant evidence of the Trinity throughout Scripture. I have had some interesting studies with Arians on the topic. However, it is wise not to use taht verse. They are ready and waiting for that one! Quote
Moderators John317 Posted April 20, 2007 Moderators Posted April 20, 2007 Originally Posted By: skyblue888 Interesting, indeed! If this is true, I can see why the anti trinitarians would use that to build their case! There is abundant evidence of the Trinity throughout Scripture. I have had some interesting studies with Arians on the topic. However, it is wise not to use taht verse. They are ready and waiting for that one! You're right, Dave. Although I do believe the verse (that is, I believe what it says), I am absolutely positive it was not part of John's original writing. I wish it had been, but I cannot deny the overwhelming evidence in the case. There is no evidence that anyone ever used 1 John 5: 7 during the Arian controversy, a fact which--along with its absence in the ancient manuscripts-- goes a long way toward proving that it was not known during that period. Besides, none of the Greek Fathers in the church quote it, even when it would have been a perfect text to quote to disprove the Arian heresy. By the way, the SDA Bible Commentary on 1 John 5:7 says the part of the verse in dispute has virtually no manuscript evidence and that the evidence that does exist shows conclusively that it was not in the original. This commentary also tells the story (as I've already related above on this thread) of how Erasmus happened to include the verse in his Greek text, which in turn was used by the King James translators as the basis of their work. While the SDA Bible Commentary does support the view that 1 John 5:7 lacks manuscript evidence, I didn't get my information from it. I got the information from examining the manuscript evidence in the apparatuses of many (over 15) Greek texts of the New Testament as well as from a number of reference works, including A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, by Bruce M. Metzger, United Bible Societies, 1971. I agree that there is so much Bible evidence for the Trinity and for the the deity of Jesus Christ that no one should feel the need of referring to 1 John 5:7 in order to prove those things. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
skyblue888 Posted April 20, 2007 Posted April 20, 2007 Yes there is, plenty. I have had interesting studies with Jehovah's Witnesses on the Trinity. Would be interesting to compare notes! :) Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted April 20, 2007 Members Posted April 20, 2007 just fyi, there are trinitarian forms of goddesses in paganism... 3 goddesses, but all the same one.... well...sorta. Quote Pam      Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
Moderators John317 Posted April 21, 2007 Moderators Posted April 21, 2007 Yes there is, plenty. I have had interesting studies with Jehovah's Witnesses on the Trinity. Would be interesting to compare notes! Yes, it would be. I think it would be a good idea some time to devote a thread to that subject. But before you study with them on that or any other subject, it is essential that their faith in the Watchtower organization be broken, because otherwise, it really does not matter what the Bible says. They will accept the interpretation of the the Watchtower organization no matter how clearly it contradicts the plain testimony of the Bible. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted April 21, 2007 Moderators Posted April 21, 2007 just fyi, there are trinitarian forms of goddesses in paganism... 3 goddesses, but all the same one.... well...sorta. That is true, and the Jehovah's Witnesses never tire of emphasizing that fact. But in and of itself that fact proves nothing. The all important question is, what does the Bible teach? What is the Bible evidence? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
skyblue888 Posted April 22, 2007 Posted April 22, 2007 Yes, John, I agree. You are right about the Watchtower. Three goddesses of the pagans: It simply shows that Satan had a counterfeit of the truth about the trinity with the heathen nations. Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Moderators John317 Posted May 3, 2007 Moderators Posted May 3, 2007 Yes there is, plenty. I have had interesting studies with Jehovah's Witnesses on the Trinity. Would be interesting to compare notes! Compare and contrast the Greek construction of John 1: 1, "kai theos ayn ho logos" with the construction at 2 Cor. 3:17, "Ho de kurios to pneuma estin." Both are similar in that they have two nominative subjects, but they are different in that at John 1: 1, only one of the nominaives has a definite article. John 1: 1 is saying that ho logos is not the same person as the one here identified as 'theos" but that ho logos is of the same essential nature. Therefore it is incorrectly translated in their NWT as "the word was a god." In 2 Cor 3: 17, both nominatives have definite articles because they are pointing to the same person. Paul is saying that the one he had earlier called "ho kurios" is also "to pneuma." Therefore, it can be correctly translated, "That 'Lord' is in fact the Spirit..." One man I studied with for over a year denied that Hebrew 1: 10 was referring to Jesus Christ. He maintained that it is describing God the Father. Then I showed him the Jehovah Witness's own books on the verse that agrees that it is in reference to Christ. There is no question that Christ is referred to as the Jehovah of the Old Testament who made the heavens and the earth and was called "Adonai" in Psalms, a common name for Jehovah. He finally admitted Hebrews 1: 10 refers to Jesus, yet he told me, "Even if that's what it says, it doesn't mean Jesus created the world. It just means that Jehovah used Him to make it." That is despite the fact that the verse says clearly that Jesus is the one who laid the foundations of the earth and that the heavens are the work of Jesus' hands. Another strong point that shows Jesus is fully God comes from the fact that the only correct way to translate Titus 2: 13 is, "the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ." We've learned more about the rules of Koine Greek in the last 4 hundred years since the translators of the King James translators did their marvellous work. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted May 3, 2007 Moderators Posted May 3, 2007 Col. 1: 17 is an astonishing verse about Jesus Christ. It says, "He existed before all things and everything is held together by Him." That is the correct translation. Compare that with the Jehovah's Witness's NWT: "Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist." They translated the verse to mean that Jesus Christ is one of the created things in the universe; and instead of saying that the whole universe is held together by Christ-- that is, inheres in Him-- the poorly translated NWT says he made every other created thing except himself. But the verse actually does not say anything about "creation" but rather means that apart from Christ's actively and continuously sustaining it and holding it together, the universe would collapse and cease to exist. It means, moreover, that this has been the case, continuously, since anything came into existence. There has never been a time when this was not true. In other words, Jesus Christ is keeping us alive every moment of every day of our lives. The very cells of our bodies stay together, and we have breath, because of the active, personal will and power of the Lord Jesus Christ. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted May 3, 2007 Members Posted May 3, 2007 John 317 said: Quote: In other words, Jesus Christ is keeping us alive every moment of every day of our lives. The very cells of our bodies stay together, and we have breath, because of the active, personal will and power of the Lord Jesus Christ. That is totally awesome. Quote Pam      Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
Moderators John317 Posted May 4, 2007 Moderators Posted May 4, 2007 John 317 said: Quote: In other words, Jesus Christ is keeping us alive every moment of every day of our lives. The very cells of our bodies stay together, and we have breath, because of the active, personal will and power of the Lord Jesus Christ. That is totally awesome. I find it staggering and something I doubt I will ever completely grasp this side of heaven. For instance, consider the fact that while the Roman soldiers were holding Jesus down and driving those nails into his body, it was Jesus' divine nature that was keeping those men alive. What kind of love is that?!!! In Philippians 2: 7, it says Jesus "emptied Himself,"--heautov ekenosen-- meaning that Jesus emptied Himself of his privileges as God in order to become human and live and die as a human. It doesn't mean that Jesus stopped being the Son of God. It means that Jesus never used any of his divine qualities or powers to meet temptation and overcome sin or avoid the death on the cross. (The Amplified Bible says that Christ "stripped Himself [of all privileges and rightful dignity]".) As a human being-- the Son of man-- he was as dependent on the Father as we are. He truly could not do anything as a man apart from the Heavenly Father. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Ron Lambert Posted May 4, 2007 Posted May 4, 2007 He worked miracles including raising the dead--but the same way we may, by the power of the Holy Spirit. He set an example for us even in this--an example of living by faith, even being empowered by faith. Quote
LifeHiscost Posted May 5, 2007 Posted May 5, 2007 As a human being-- the Son of man-- he was as dependent on the Father as we are. He truly could not do anything as a man apart from the Heavenly Father. The greatest biblical evidence that God is not three but on the contrary, is One, is from the lips of Christ Himself. "...and Jesus answered him -- `The first of all the commands [is], Hear, O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one;" Mark 12:29 YLT parenthesis theirs LHC " If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" John 14:7-9 KJV The second greatest Biblical evidence that God is One is that when Jesus was separated from the Father, He died. "About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, " ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?" that is, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?" Matthew 27:46 KJV Emphasis theirs LHC "And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit." V 50 NASB Paul also makes good arguement for the recognition of the mystery of the Person of the Godhead by his reference to us as the body of Christ. We are discussing characteristics of the Divine family that in our fallen condition we have little hope of knowing anything about except that which is the most rudimentary. Blessings!! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
LifeHiscost Posted May 5, 2007 Posted May 5, 2007 Originally Posted By: rudywoofs just fyi, there are trinitarian forms of goddesses in paganism... 3 goddesses, but all the same one.... well...sorta. That is true, and the Jehovah's Witnesses never tire of emphasizing that fact. But in and of itself that fact proves nothing. The all important question is, what does the Bible teach? What is the Bible evidence? OTOH, the prince of darkness knows the Bible better than any of us. Isn't it also an awesome wonder that we have been granted the Holy Spirit for the conviction of that which is true. "and Peter said unto them, `Reform, and be baptized each of you on the name of Jesus Christ, to remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit," Acts 2:38 YLT "...and the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and remind you of all things that I said to you." John 14:26 YLT Without that gift we are all most deficient in understanding. "Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his.....But as for me, this mystery has not been revealed to me for any wisdom residing in me more than in any other living man, but for the purpose of making the interpretation known to the king, and that you may understand the thoughts of your mind." Dan 2:20,30 Regards!! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Moderators John317 Posted May 11, 2007 Moderators Posted May 11, 2007 Originally Posted By: John317 As a human being-- the Son of man-- he was as dependent on the Father as we are. He truly could not do anything as a man apart from the Heavenly Father. The greatest biblical evidence that God is not three but on the contrary, is One, is from the lips of Christ Himself. "...and Jesus answered him -- `The first of all the commands [is], Hear, O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one;" Mark 12:29 YLT parenthesis theirs... LHC I would never tell people that "God is three." God is One. So are men and women to be "one flesh," yet they are two individuals. Just wondering if you believe in the Trinity-- that is, if you believe Jesus Christ is fully God, equal with the Father? How do you understand John 1: 1 where the Bible says "the Word was God"? Isn't it obvious that the second "God" is not the same as the first God mentioned in the phrase, "and the Word was with God"? I like Young's Literal Translation, too, but have you noticed how he mistranslated John 20: 1 and other similar verses? Just shows there is no perfect translation of the Bible. I always use at least three: the KJV, NRSV, and NASB. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
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