Coal mine reveals ancient rain forest

[Ron Lambert]

May I point out, as I have before, that God Himself personally with His own finger wrote the fourth commandment on stone. So it is not man interpreting but God the Creator Himself who said: "For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it."

You have to believe in the Genesis account of Creation, or else you cannot believe in the God of the Bible at all. There is no middle ground, there is no compromise.

[bevin]

See my reply in the Nature of Inspiration thread

/Bevin

[Taylor]

While I don't always agree with you Ron, I do agree here. God said he created the world, who are we to doubt that? In my opinion it takes vastly larger leaps of faith to believe in Evoltion than in an all powerful God who could have, if he chose, created this world in 7 nanoseconds. However, he choose to do it in 7 days. While that is impossible for us humans to conceive when it can take us months to build a single house, for God it was child's play.

[Dr. Shane]

Jesus Christ and the New Testament believers believed the Genesis account of the world wide flood. If there was not a world-wide flood, toss the Bible in the fire and look for another religion because Christianity's leader was duped.

[Taylor]

Exactly.

[Beryl]

All evolution theories are just that -- theories -- assumptions. The projected length of time taken for the world to "evolve" and life to form grows longer everytime an evolutionist seems to speak, because EVERYTHING is merely an ASSUMPTION!

Why try to defend an assumption, when we have a God who claims to be the Creator, who loves His creation so much that He was willing to come, live among us, and eventually die for us?

Is there any evolutionist who is willing to die for his assumption?

The facts are that although the ASSUMPTION is that life somehow miraculously (sorry, they don't believe in miracles, do they?)came to a blob of mud, the evolutionist then has to explain how, from that blob of mud, a brain was formed! How did the blob of mud know that it needed a brain when it had to have a brain to think with? Evolution simply does not make sense! It sounds more like devilish witchcraft!

The Bible story of a loving Creator makes sense.

Beryl

[bevin]

Beryl, the topic is fascinating and you are incredibly misunderstanding it.

If you really care about it, go to the bookshop and get any of the excellent available overviews of the topic.

It is not all assumptions - there are LOTS of experiments and measurements to back it up, and the support is growing eery day as results come in from areas as diverse as geology and microbiology

/Bevin

[David Koot]

It is not all assumptions - there are LOTS of experiments and measurements to back it up,

[David Koot]

Actually, those words were written by a scientist who teaches at a medical school, who for many years firmly believed in long-age evolution. However, as he pointed out, Darwin was wrong, the theory has been discredited and, as he put it, has "been consigned to the dust-bin of history." Incidentally, he did not migrate to ID, but was looking at alternate theories. (He explained that any theory that involves a supreme or supernatural Being is not doing science.)

[Ron Lambert]

So it would be unscientific to believe that God created science? Even when it is the truth? Why isn't the first person testimony of the Creator considered a legitimate part of science? Perhaps many of those who call themselves scientists, and many of those who claim they are familiar with science, are wrong fundamentally about what really constitutes science.

[Dr. Shane]

First I want to point out that, if I am not mistaken, Sister Beryl is a medical doctor which is a scientist with significant knowledge in human biology. So even if any of us disagree with her, let's not disrespect her by insinuating she needs to read more or get more education.

Many years ago mainstream science decided not to take the supernatural into account. That is why it is called natural science. That means it will only take look at the natural - not the supernatural. Of course, that means if there is a God and He played a role in the development of the universe, this world or life on it, natural science will never find the truth about orgins. It is kind of like telling police to investigate a crime but not letting them take consider certain individuals as suspects. Well, if any of those individuals actually committed the crime, the police will never be able to discover the truth.

As opposed to natural science, creation science not only takes into consideration the supernatural, it assumes it.

[Taylor]

Beryl, the topic is fascinating and you are incredibly misunderstanding it.

If you really care about it, go to the bookshop and get any of the excellent available overviews of the topic.

It is not all assumptions - there are LOTS of experiments and measurements to back it up, and the support is growing eery day as results come in from areas as diverse as geology and microbiology

/Bevin

I have a question. If science or history disagrees then with any portion of the Bible and "science or history" can prove they are right, then they are to be belived above the Bible because the Bible can't always be "proved"? IE the final authority is science or history not the Bible? I am not trying to be sarcastic, I just trying to understand the perspective.

[bevin]

Neither is a "final authority" - why do you need a "final authority" and why do you believe such a thing exists?

/Bevin

ps: The Bible is not "A Book" - it is a wide range literature of widely varying ages and widely varying knowledge of the origin of the specific book and somewhat varying levels of accuracy in the copying

[Beryl]

"somewhat varying levels of accuracy in the copying".

Proof??? The facts are that the copying has been entirely accurate, as attested by the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Beryl

[Taylor]

Neither is a "final authority" - why do you need a "final authority" and why do you believe such a thing exists?

/Bevin

ps: The Bible is not "A Book" - it is a wide range literature of widely varying ages and widely varying knowledge of the origin of the specific book and somewhat varying levels of accuracy in the copying

If there is no final authority in this life then.

1. What is wrong for person A is right for person B, so if person B wants to kill Person A, Person A can't complain because for person B he is doing because it is the "right thing" for him to do. I know this is an extreme example but truely someone or something has to define what murder is, and when it is wrong. Otherwise there would be no governments just absolute anarchy.

2. There is no purpose for living if there is no truth about something or somewhere outside of ourselves....a reincarnation....a heaven....a something. If our only life here and now is all there is, it has some merit but it certainly is depressing to think about.

3. Those who believe in the part of evolution that says that somehow by "accident" all the right parts came together over millions of years are unwittingly communicating a very depressing point of view. If everyone on this planet is an accident or a happen stance or whatever you want to call it, and there is no creator God who planned them and formed them in the womb and who called them by name before they were even born, whose names are engraved on the palms of his hands then a person's self-esteem is at some point going to suffer. He is going to say "what is my purpose in life? Who cares if I live or die?"

However, if he see his origin as being part of a master plan, a plan made by a God who loves him desperately. A God who doesn't want to live without him, and who will bear the scars of the cross throughout eternity for him, then and only then does life have true meaning.

It means that when life gets impossible. When the wife walks out on you, when you loose your job, when lies are spread about you and your reputation is ruined, when your children die, you still have this unshakable knowledge that despite all of this there is a God who created you, and who can't wait to be reunited with you in heaven.

Yes we do need an absolute authority in life. Life is hard enough on this planet to be floating around without any guidance. We aren't wise enough to avoid wars, or nuke each other out of existence, or cut out the divorce rate, or cure all illnesses. We need a creator God. We need someone who has the answers, who cares deeply about us, who loves us unconditionally even when we mess up royally. We need a fence of protection around us a fence that says "don't do this or don't do that or you will be hurt". True that fence has a gate and we can choose to walk outside of that fence and be hurt, or we can live inside that fence and be grateful for the protection it gives us.

For me the final authority is never what humans come up with. I think that humans are smart, as God made them that way. I think we can learn a lot from each other. I think we can find cures for many things but the only cure for the sin-sick soul is Jesus. The only cure for this planet reeling out of controll is a Savior.

Yes I know the Bible was written by humans but they were directed by God. If Jesus memorized scripture he must have believed in it's authenticity or he wouldn't have used it against the devil. If it's good enough for Jesus it is good enough for me. And even if and even where there might be descrepencies in a verse from one translation to another, it matters not. The same truth exists in so many other places that it can be found just the same. That is why we are admonished to "search the scriptures". We can't be surface readers. We can't just take what we like and throw out what we don't like. We have to have a sense of trust in a God who loves us so much as to direct men in ancient times to write the Bible. Men who lived over a long period of time, many of which couldn't have known each other, but their mesage is part of the whole. It is part of the puzzle that reveals to us what God's will is for our lives, and how he wants us to treat others.

(Everyone has a final authority in their lives. For most people it is themselves. Yes their own opinion changes with new evidence that comes into their sphere of knowledge but they decide what to keep and what to throw out, what makes sense and what doesn't. If there is no final authority and people are their own ultimate authority then people have set themselves up as a type of god.

The Bible says to "come and reason together". It is good to ask questions but there is a final authority and his name is God.)

[bevin]

http://www.physics.arizona.edu/physics/public/dead-sea.html

The Dead Sea scrolls date around 150 BCE - 60 CE, so it is hard to see how they valid the accuracy of the copying from (allegedly) Moses in (allegedly)1400 BCE to 150 BCE...

[bevin]

Quote:

Everyone has a final authority in their lives

This is simply not true. I don't, and I know lots of friends and acquaintances like me.

There is not one source they, nor I, look to and say "that source says it, so it is true".

We are prepared to change any estimate of any model's accuracy as more evidence becomes available.

/Bevin

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

The Dead Sea scrolls date around 150 BCE - 60 CE, so it is hard to see how they valid the accuracy of the copying from (allegedly) Moses in (allegedly)1400 BCE to 150 BCE...

We know that these books were copied by hand from the Dead Sea Scrolls to the invention of the printing press in 1440. That is approximately 1,500 years without any significant errors being made in replication. So we know for fact the Scripture was copied for the 1,500 years before the printing press without significant error.

On top of that, we know that Jesus taught to trust the Scriptures that He had when He lived among us. Those same Scriptures were among the Dead Sea Scrolls. So we know that Jesus believed the copies of the Scriptures He had were accurate.

Given those two pieces of evidence, it is reasonable to believe that the Scriptures were indeed copied from 1400 BC to 150 BC without any significant error.

[Taylor]

Quote:

Everyone has a final authority in their lives

This is simply not true. I don't, and I know lots of friends and acquaintances like me.

There is not one source they, nor I, look to and say "that source says it, so it is true".

We are prepared to change any estimate of any model's accuracy as more evidence becomes available.

/Bevin

Well since I am not inside your head I can't judge you and never would presume to.

But since we all make judgements on what we hear as to whether it is true or not, that means that since we keep and then throw out information we are the final authority on it. However, if we base those decisions on say strictly science, or strictly history, or strictly people's experience or the Bible, then science, history, personal experience, or the Bible is the final authority of course...until new information comes in and we find out new truths...then we decide what to keep and what to throw out and again we are deciding for ourselves based on the knowledge we have from some "realiable source or sources".

There are people in this world who will believe the Bible above science, history, personal experience or anything else. For me being rudderless and my existence being pointless (if there was no validity to the Bible) or having to explain my own existence apart from God would be truely a sad day for me. I know this will strike some as having the head in the sand. However, hear me out. Much of science and history and personal experience does confirm God's existence or creation or power, or whatever you want to call it and when it does that is fantastic. But when it doesn't it doesn't shake my confidence in the word of God or make me wonder if God is wrong. The buck, in my opinion, on all knowledge stops at God. The buck does not stop with my my opinion no matter how educated or how learned I am or the authors I read in science, history etc.

There are questions that none of us will ever discover the answers to even if we lived on this planet for millions of more years. The tip of the iceburg of science or in any other topic (medicine, language, the human nature etc) is just that, only the tip. God knows infinately more than any of us, that even when he doesn't spell things out, like give me all the scientific reasons as to why he does what he does or did, I can still trust that he doesn't lie and that he knows what is best for me and that he does everything out of love.

That is an unshakable confidence and the ultimate authority for me. I know I can't trust my own judgement nor the knowledge or expertise of the smartest human being. I can learn from them, and they might have alot of truth but TRUTH, real truth comes from God and any truth that disagrees with what he says isn't truth....at least not for me.

However, having said that, too many Christians are rude in their opinions thinking that evolutionist or historians that don't agree with the Bible are stupid. That is simply not true. There are brilliant minds which do not even acknowledge God. They might have much truth to share and make important strides in our understanding of how to cure disease. But if they disagree with God (not if they disagree with me or with my agenda....I am not God nor would I ever want to be)then all I can say is that their premise for coming to that conclusion is incorrect.

But that is my view.

[bevin]

Here is a description of the process from a very pro-accuracy pro-God's-word author...

http://www.trinitarianbiblesociety.org/site/articles/heb.asp

Quote:

According to the ancient Jewish writings, the Talmud, Ezra formed a synod of scribes and teachers, known as the Great Synagogue or Great Assembly (Kenesseth ha-Gedolah) for the purpose of teaching and interpreting the Torah. In order to do this effectively, one of their tasks was the production of a standard Old Testament text. The Great Assembly was replaced by specialised schools of scribes, the soferim, in about 300 BC. The term soferim had been used somewhat more loosely in previous eras, but now came to designate a specific group of men who were trained Torah scholars and copyists. They took up the mantle from the Great Assembly and continued the work of producing a standard Hebrew Old Testament text by evaluating available copies and working to eliminate textual differences and variants. This they did by comparing available manuscripts and copies, ascertaining which were most correct and where they differed taking the majority readings of those copies deemed most reliable as official.

It is contended, on the basis of ancient Jewish writings, that some of the early soferim made corrections to the text based upon variant readings, spelling changes and even theological conjecture. However, the later soferim did not believe themselves qualified to make such changes and instead accepted the text as they had it in hand, even to the perpetuating of peculiar readings and spellings, and words or letters which were completely out of place. Instead of changing what they viewed as erroneous readings, they marked them with various dots or circles and placed what they believed to be the correct readings in the margins.7 In addition, over time the soferim, and then their successors, the Masoretes, set about counting the words and letters of the standardised text and established strict rules for copying, to ensure that no errors or changes would be allowed in the text. In time the various notes and marginal readings came to form what is known as the Masorah.

Obviously, blatantly obviously, the process from 1400BCE - 300BCE was very different, and much less exact, than the process after then.

/Bevin

[Taylor]

But again even if the process was different, the same truths can be found all throughout the Bible. That is what makes the Bible so incredible. God apparently directed which books made it into the sacred cannon because there is a beautiful theme which can be found throughout the Bible, a consistency, a oneness of doctrine throughout the Bible. Sure you can find texts that apparently support life after death (outside of the resurrection), but that is why we are to study the whole Bible, not just be surface readers and when we do that, the continuity is even more obvious.

[bevin]

Compare

2 Sam 21:19

and

1 Chron 20:5

/Bevin

[Dr. Shane]

The story of the flood and of creation are both supported by New Testament writers which clears away the smoke and mirrors of those that want to cast doubt on them.

[Taylor]

:) Yes but even those who cast doubt on them are very valuable people (and I know you would agree) but it is true, the Bible and it's truths are consistent throughout.

[Woody]

One thing that is very unpopular here on CA is something I firmly believe in ... And that is that KNOWLEDGE will not save us. God saves us despite our lack of knowledge.

So .... what I am getting at is that even though Bevin has more faith in science than the rest of us .... God accepts him where he is at with that belief. God loves Bevin no differently than He loves me. And Bevin is just as saved as I am.

In Heaven we will all learn just how wrong we all have been. But in the mean time ... it is still good fun pretending how right we think we are.

At least for me .... I refuse to think or state that I have arrived and have the all powerful perfect knowledge of Christ. I happen to base my belief on the Bible. But we all have a different interpretation of the Bible except for the legalists who will insist that their way is not "opinion" and it is "gospel" from God as if they have a direct pipeline. I am not as arrogent.

The important thing is that we unite in spreading the message of God which is that God IS love.