Illegals

[Woody]

Question ...

Do churches violate the law when they help Illegals here in the United States?

And I am referring to illegal immigrants.

[Gerr]

Of course they are violating the law of the land, but in doing so, they may be keeping a higher law that mandates loving even our enemies.

Gerry

[Taylor]

Good question Redwood and good answere Gerry.

[Dr. Shane]

Perhaps it would be appropriate to ask Sandra Blackmer in the upcoming interview section.

Human Trafficking, A Christian Response

Quote:

In order to help raise awareness among church members worldwide of the horror and prevalence of human trafficking, the Seventh-day Adventist Church has joined a coalition of nonprofit organizations, under the director of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, that are committed to eradicating this international inhumanity.

Ralph Benko and Kari Rai, consultants to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), met at the church's world headquarters in Silver Springs, Maryland, on November 3 with General Conference (GC) women's ministries director and associate director Ardis Stenbakken and Heather-Dawn Small, GC Public Affairs and Religious Liberty (PARL) assistant director James Standish, GC children's ministries director Linda Koh, and PARL specialist Viola Hughes. The GC representatives agreed to share information with those in their departments and, consequently, the entire Adventist Church membership, about human trafficking and how to find help for victims of this practice.

[Woody]

Good question Redwood and good answere Gerry.

Yes Taylor .... I agree with you and Gerry.

On the secular side though I think we are in good company when we as a church help illegals. The big banks are helping them stay in the country by giving them loans and bank cards. Yes .... they are doing it for business. But, How can the church be seen as going against the law when the banks are getting away with it also. The church is just doing a good deed while the banks are doing it for greed.

[Bravus]

Jesus broke the law by healing on Sabbath

[there buster]

It's never helpful to confuse categories. Pharisaic law was not the civil law of the land. That would have been Roman law.

What Jesus did was much more akin to "violating" the Church Manual, though that is also an inexact parallel.

But the difference between the two laws is important. In the Sanhedrin, Jesus was accused of blasphemy, which was a capital crime in Jewish law. But since they could not lawfully execute anyone, they accused him of sedition when they went before Pilate.

Equating the two laws brings up the question whether the poster is actually confused, or is intentionally attempting to confuse the issue.

[there buster]

"Helping illegals" is too general a term, because it encompasses a wide variety of actions.

If illegal immigrants come to the church fellowship dinner, and we feed them, that's one thing.

If we offer them lodging in the church or on church properties, that's a whole different thing.

Assisting them to become legal is yet another way of helping.

Operating a sort of "underground railroad" for illegal immigrants would be quite another.

I hasten to add that a number of early Adventists, including John Byington, first GC President, operated stations on the underground railroad for runaway slaves, a strictly illegal activity at that time.

Circumstances, context, level of knowledge and level of involvement makes a great deal of difference in such a question.

[Bravus]

Or, you know, someone could just be making a mild, throwaway comment indicating a sense that there are higher laws and that circumstances alter cases. Not everything is a legal or philosophical argument. Sometimes people just chat.

[John317]

Jesus broke the law by healing on Sabbath

As Ed said, Jesus broke the Jews' misinterpretation of the Sabbath law but He certainly did not break God's law as God intended it to be kept. There is nothing in the law that prohibited Him or anyone else from healing someone. Of course the reality is that Jesus was the one who created the Sabbath in the beginning. Had Jesus broken God's law, He would Himself have been a sinner and thus have needed a Savior. He said, "I always keep my Father's commandments," and, "Which of you convicts me of sin?"

[John317]

"Helping illegals" is too general a term, because it encompasses a wide variety of actions.

If illegal immigrants come to the church fellowship dinner, and we feed them, that's one thing.

If we offer them lodging in the church or on church properties, that's a whole different thing.

Assisting them to become legal is yet another way of helping.

Operating a sort of "underground railroad" for illegal immigrants would be quite another.

I hasten to add that a number of early Adventists, including John Byington, first GC President, operated stations on the underground railroad for runaway slaves, a strictly illegal activity at that time.

Circumstances, context, level of knowledge and level of involvement makes a great deal of difference in such a question.

As a kid, I grew up within a few hundred feet of the Southern Pacific train-tracks that run between the U.S./ Mexico border and Los Angeles. I knew where the border patrol sat in their vans waiting for poor Mexican "illegals" to walk into their traps. I often acted as guide to them through the lines, taking them around the hot spots, and sometimes giving them food and water. They were headed for work in LA so they could send money to their families back in Mexico. Some of their children needed extra money for some expensive but desperately needed medical procedure. I wasn't a Christian then. Now that I am, should I see what I did for them as wrong or as a crime? Maybe some will think I should but I don't. It's a hard and complex issue. I have five family members who are in this country illegally right now. I brought my own wife over the border 20 years ago as an illegal alien. I can't help but be glad I did.

[Dr. Shane]

Where I live the Border Patrol can take your car from you if you have an undocumented person with you and they believe you are knowingly "helping" them. This almost happened to me once when I had my wife's aunt with us. Her aunt had a tourist visa but the Border Patrol were very suspicious and after they discovered she had been studying here without permission, they canceled her visa and deported her. It was during that process they told me they were trying to decide if they were going to confiscate my car.

[Bravus]

Quote:

As Ed said, Jesus broke the Jews' misinterpretation of the Sabbath law but He certainly did not break God's law as God intended it to be kept. There is nothing in the law that prohibited Him or anyone else from healing someone. Of course the reality is that Jesus was the one who created the Sabbath in the beginning. Had Jesus broken God's law, He would Himself have been a sinner and thus have needed a Savior. He said, "I always keep my Father's commandments," and, "Which of you convicts me of sin?"

All true, but not relevant. The law Jesus broke was not God's law but the law of the land (leaving the complexities of the law in Roman-occupied Israel to the side), as is the law broken by those who help illegal immigrants.

Again, I'm not making a sophisticated argument or claiming that the parallel is watertight, just saying that there is plenty of precedent in the Bible, and in fact many commands, to help those less fortunate than us, including specific instructions to help the 'alien' in the land.

[John317]

Quote:

As Ed said, Jesus broke the Jews' misinterpretation of the Sabbath law but He certainly did not break God's law as God intended it to be kept. There is nothing in the law that prohibited Him or anyone else from healing someone. Of course the reality is that Jesus was the one who created the Sabbath in the beginning. Had Jesus broken God's law, He would Himself have been a sinner and thus have needed a Savior. He said, "I always keep my Father's commandments," and, "Which of you convicts me of sin?"

All true, but not relevant. The law Jesus broke was not God's law but the law of the land (leaving the complexities of the law in Roman-occupied Israel to the side), as is the law broken by those who help illegal immigrants.

Again, I'm not making a sophisticated argument or claiming that the parallel is watertight, just saying that there is plenty of precedent in the Bible, and in fact many commands, to help those less fortunate than us, including specific instructions to help the 'alien' in the land.

Thanks for the good explanation. You have a point. I just made my comment about it because there are quite a few people who actually do believe that Jesus broke the Sabbath commandment as God gave it and I am sure you would admit that in that instance, it's important.

[John317]

Where I live the Border Patrol can take your car from you if you have an undocumented person with you and they believe you are knowingly "helping" them. This almost happened to me once when I had my wife's aunt with us. Her aunt had a tourist visa but the Border Patrol were very suspicious and after they discovered she had been studying here without permission, they canceled her visa and deported her. It was during that process they told me they were trying to decide if they were going to confiscate my car.

Sounds like we both have seen things from both sides of the border, so to speak. It can be an eye-opener.

[there buster]

Quote:

Or, you know, someone could just be making a mild, throwaway comment indicating a sense that there are higher laws and that circumstances alter cases.

You're quite right. I left out careless.

[Bravus]

welcome back to 'ignore'

[there buster]

Quote:

All true, but not relevant. The law Jesus broke was not God's law but the law of the land (leaving the complexities of the law in Roman-occupied Israel to the side), as is the law broken by those who help illegal immigrants.

Again, I'm not making a sophisticated argument or claiming that the parallel is watertight,

The problem is that Jesus did not break the law of the land. The parallel is not parallel.

On the other hand, John Byington's operation of an underground railroad station is a parallel.

As John317 and Shane have demonstrated, in such situations, careless chit-chat can get people into trouble.

[there buster]

I apologize. I did not realize it was intended to be a careful throw away comment

[Planey]

As you know, I am quite sure I will not be in heaven or occupy the New Earth.

When I observe some of the people who are sure that they will be there, I am quite content that I'm not going.

Graeme

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

I observe some of the people who are sure that they will be there, I am quite content that I'm not going.

That sounds very bad. It sounds like this: I HATE people that hate. I JUDGE people that judge. It comes off as becoming exactly what one opposes. It sounds like a person is stooping down to the same level as those they disapprove of. Probably not a good tactic in trying to bring judgmental people to repentance or exercise love, tolerance and forgiveness of others' shortcomings. I think just an open rebuke for being judgmental would be more effective - but that is just me talking.

[Neil D]

Quote:

I observe some of the people who are sure that they will be there, I am quite content that I'm not going.

That sounds very bad. It sounds like this: I HATE people that hate. I JUDGE people that judge. It comes off as becoming exactly what one opposes. It sounds like a person is stooping down to the same level as those they disapprove of. Probably not a good tactic in trying to bring judgmental people to repentance or exercise love, tolerance and forgiveness of others' shortcomings. I think just an open rebuke for being judgmental would be more effective - but that is just me talking.

Reminds me of a few comments....

Those of you who think you know it all are irritating those of who actually do....

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How can you soar among eagles when you fly with a bunch of turkeys?

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Or the Adventist joke I had heard-

A man died and found himself at the pearly gates. When ushered in by St. Peter, the man had to admit surprize at being admited to heaven considering his life. Oh, he was assured, Heaven isn't like what you told. All those rules and stuff were reserved for the leadership. The general population are pretty much guarenteed admitance.Once they realize how nice this place is, well, all thier petty problems kinda disappear and all those petty differences just evaporate. It's a pretty neat place...

As the man was looking around and seeing the beautiful sights and the peace between all peoples, he noticed a group of people off by themselves wispering and talking among themselves. Once in a while, one of them would moan wildly and hit himself. It kinda disturbed him as everyone was pretty open with each other, except these people. He asked St. Peter about it. Said St. Peter, Oh them...those are Seventh Day Adventists. They found out how easy it was to get here, and now they are kicking themselves.

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Graham, tell you what... no matter where you are at, I will come join you, at least for a time, and we can talk together...

[there buster]

Quote:

As you know, I am quite sure I will not be in heaven or occupy the New Earth.

Actually, I had no idea. I am sorry to hear that you feel that way. The good news is that none of us knows the future. Maybe you will be, after all.

[Gerr]

As you know, I am quite sure I will not be in heaven or occupy the New Earth.

When I observe some of the people who are sure that they will be there, I am quite content that I'm not going.

Graeme

But there is still time to get on the train, brother. I am quite certain that you will find ALL the people there will be quite pleasant company.

Gerry

[John317]

As you know, I am quite sure I will not be in heaven or occupy the New Earth.

When I observe some of the people who are sure that they will be there, I am quite content that I'm not going.

Graeme

I think I understand what you mean. I used to hate the thought of being in heaven or on the new earth with certain people I knew. The location didn't matter,--nor the temperature-- I just wanted to be anywhere they weren't. Now I just want to be anywhere where Jesus is, and it really doesn't matter who else is there. I don't have to talk to them if I don't have to anyway, and besides there's lots of room there for everybody. There's a good chance, too, that after the first billion or so years, we can become friends with everyone so we can enjoy the next hundreds of trillions+ together. It says there's a tree there for the healing of the nations. We'll all need plenty of healing all right.