Illegals

[Woody]

Quote:

it really doesn't matter who else is there.

John317 I hope you really didn't mean this. As Christians it is our desire I hope to care about Who else is in heaven. We as Christians should want to be will all people in Heaven. If we can't get along with people then we should not be going to Heaven. I sure don't want to go to Heaven and experience lack of love and getting long with each other there. I've seen enough disagreements here on Earth. I don't need to see it in Heaven.

[John317]

Quote:

it really doesn't matter who else is there.

John317 I hope you really didn't mean this. As Christians it is our desire I hope to care about Who else is in heaven. We as Christians should want to be will all people in Heaven. If we can't get along with people then we should not be going to Heaven. I sure don't want to go to Heaven and experience lack of love and getting long with each other there. I've seen enough disagreements here on Earth. I don't need to see it in Heaven.

Wow, Redwood-- you have to take the context into consideration. I was talking to a person who says he doesn't want to be in heaven with certain people he knows. I felt the same way before. So I am trying to get him to see that I came to the point where I changed my mind. Now I no longer care if those people whom I used to not like get to heaven. In other words, I am no longer bothered about being in heaven with those people that I used to dislike. I thought that was plain enough but now you make me wonder if my message might be misunderstood by everyone else too.

OK, now with that little(?) explanation in mind, try going back and rereading what I said on that other post and see if it makes better sense. I do hope so anyhow. Would you mind letting me know.

[Planey]

If we can't get along with people then we should not be going to Heaven.

That was basically my point. I will not be going to Heaven because I do not qualify. Not getting along with people is a symptom of why I will not be going, it is not the cause.

And in response to Shane, I am not judging those people who give the terminal irrits, but the fact that these wonderful, righteous, Christ-like people (see, I was listening to them) aggravate me so much just shows the truth about me, not them.

Graeme

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

If we can't get along with people then we should not be going to Heaven.

That was basically my point. I will not be going to Heaven because I do not qualify. Not getting along with people is a symptom of why I will not be going, it is not the cause.

And in response to Shane, I am not judging those people who give the terminal irrits, but the fact that these wonderful, righteous, Christ-like people (see, I was listening to them) aggravate me so much just shows the truth about me, not them.

Graeme

Hold on, Graeme. Stick around. You actually have a start! All is not lost, believe me. The first step is realizing one's need and one's hopelessness. We're all hopeless in ourselves. Anyway stay in CA and keep reading and reflecting, and oh yeah, God wants very much to hear from you too.

[Neil D]

Quote:

That was basically my point. I will not be going to Heaven because I do not qualify. Not getting along with people is a symptom of why I will not be going, it is not the cause.

And in response to Shane, I am not judging those people who give the terminal irrits, but the fact that these wonderful, righteous, Christ-like people (see, I was listening to them) aggravate me so much just shows the truth about me, not them.

Perhaps I am missing something here, Graham...And I have to admit that I haven't read all of the posts as closely as I prolly should....

But we got along famously, when I met you last year...In fact, as I recall, you passed out, overwhelmed at our friendship/meeting.

So please, at least the evidence as I recall doesn't support the personal application- "If we can't get along with people then we should not be going to Heaven."...at least, it doesn't seem to apply to you IMHO...And personality types being what they are, some of us need personal time away from the many people around us...some more than others...and our personal time away from people varys from time to time...And I suspect that even those who make it to heaven, get to have personal reflective time away from others....

[olger]

Dear Planey. People who choose Jesus (and keep choosing Him) are going to spend forever with Him. Heaven will be filled people who have experienced loss & sorrow and have chosen to forgive.

I am considering starting a thread on forgiveness.

oG

[Planey]

Neil,

Don't misunderstand, the great majority of those on CA I believe I would get on well with. It's only a select few that really rub me the wrong way. And as I said that may well be a compliment to them, me being what I am.

Graeme

[Neil D]

I gotcha.... The Adventist Church has been far too long tolerant of the Neo-ultra conservative within the church. It's the sense of not allowing SDAs to help when a need arises, especially during the Sabbath hours. Sabbath is NOT a day of inactivity [aka lay activities]...but rather a rallying cry where helping mankind takes presidence over worship. Afterall, God, me thinks, would rather that people help people rather than people worship Him. At the very least, Love embodies the process of relationships rather than doctrines...Love can not hide behind the dogma of doctrine when a person is drowning in sorrows. And Love recoils from the finger of hatred in any form...

[Planey]

Totally agreed.

Love God, love your fellow man.

And love is never passive - see Paul's definition of what love is (and isn't)

[Woody]

Right On. Love is the answer.

I would rather be around a loving sinner than someone who is righteous with all their works and demonstrates "perfection".

[Taylor]

Dear Planey. People who choose Jesus (and keep choosing Him) are going to spend forever with Him. Heaven will be filled people who have experienced loss & sorrow and have chosen to forgive.

I am considering starting a thread on forgiveness.

oG

Go for it! I'd like to see a thread on forgiveness. I think as people we have a very hard time not only with God's complete forgiveness but in completely forgiving others.

[CyberGuy]

Companies get into trouble for hiring illegal aliens. One conference a couple of years ago got into hot water with the government for hiring some pastors who were illegally in this country. I think some high ranking conference officials lost their jobs over that to appease the government and to avoid major fines.

[Woody]

Dear Planey. People who choose Jesus (and keep choosing Him) are going to spend forever with Him. Heaven will be filled people who have experienced loss & sorrow and have chosen to forgive.

I am considering starting a thread on forgiveness.

oG

And when people "choose Jesus" ... they are accepting HIS forgiveness of all their sins. Now that is POWER !!!

[aldona]

Of course they are violating the law of the land, but in doing so, they may be keeping a higher law that mandates loving even our enemies.

Gerry

:tu What he said.

When Joseph packed up Mary and baby Jesus and they headed for Egypt, they were what we would (today) call "illegals."

aldona

[aldona]

As you know, I am quite sure I will not be in heaven or occupy the New Earth.

When I observe some of the people who are sure that they will be there, I am quite content that I'm not going.

Graeme

Hi Graeme,

A big hug from one "round peg in a square hole" to another.

(note my location in my profile...)

aldona

[John317]

HEY

Man's Law GOD'S LAW

... ANY way I am just letting you all know what is going

on in Dickson TN my little world with me and the Mexicans.

dgrimm60

Good for you. Where is Dickson TN? I'm in California but my father lives near Chattanooga.

By the way, there is no law, either state or Federal, that says you can't give things to those people. Nor does it require you to report them to the police. In most cases the local police don't care anyway except if they (I mean the "aliens") have committed a violent crime.

[lazarus]

I think I've said this already in another thread but I think it bears repeating.

The irony regarding illlegal immigration is beautiful. The following list sound so familiar to me.......

Millions entering a country illegally.

Aparently no regard for the "native" people of the land.

Bringing diseases.

Are not learning the language.

Changing the culture of whole towns and cities.

"Responsible" for increase in crime in some areas.

How do I know that the 12+ million illegals are staying? How do I know many more will come and transform the US?

Its just a case of sowing and reaping.

In Europe, its the same. People from the countries that the Europeans colonised have/are coming to the "mother land" to get a piece of the pie!

[Amelia]

Quote:

Millions entering a country illegally.

Aparently no regard for the "native" people of the land.

Bringing diseases.

Are not learning the language.

Changing the culture of whole towns and cities.

"Responsible" for increase in crime in some areas.

Pilgrims to N.America

Spanish to Mexico

Dutch to S.Africa

English to Austrailia

Etc.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

And in response to Shane, I am not judging those people who give the terminal irrits

Just to make sure there is no misunderstanding. This was my comment:

"That sounds very bad. It sounds like this:..."

Mine was just an observation of how a certain comment sounded. I was not trying to put words into anyone's mouth.

Now this matter of immigration. Unless Egypt had an immigration policy in force and Joseph and Mary violated it, they were not illegal aliens. It is very speculative to say such a thing. For many years the US had an open border with Mexico and the citizens of both countries were allowed to come and go as they pleased without documentation.

The issue with immigration is that it needs to be controlled. Every nation has the right to screen those wanting to come into it for health problems and a criminal background. Who is going to argue that a sovereign nation doesn't shouldn't have that right?

A nation also has the right to control the growth of its population. China's one child policy has been doing that for years. While forced-abortion and sterilization is arguably a violation of human rights, a nation certainly would be within its rights to offer financial incentives to its citizens for voluntarily limiting themselves to one child.

I have given the example before of a town here in Texas that grew from a population of 1,000 to 10,000 in ten years. It is hard for the infrastructure to keep up with that type of growth. It places an enormous strain on the power grid, water water facilities, school system, police and fire departments and streets and bridges. The area where I live is growing very fast. A few years ago we built a new power plant but before that rolling brownouts in the summer were common as the power plants were unable to produce enough electricity to mean peak demand.

So here are the issues:

• Disease
• Crime
• Population control

[there buster]

Quote:

Pilgrims to N.America

Spanish to Mexico

Dutch to S.Africa

English to Austrailia

Factually incorrect. In every case except Mexico, there was no indigenous government, and the areas in question were largely uninhabited.

Migration was neither legal nor illegal.

As far as "no regard for the native people" this also is false in terms of N. A. At first, there were many attempts at co-existence. Of course, lawless and angry individuals on both sides sometimes acted improperly. And the difference in cultures was enormous. But 'no regard' is a statement that ignores history.

"Bringing diseases" is a clear case of chronological prejudice. The understanding of disease did not come until the late nineteenth century. No one knew what caused it. Not only did the not know what caused it, at that time they had no way of knowing what caused it.

"Not learning the language" ignores the reality at the time. There was no single language. In N. A., there were many, many languages and dialects spoken. Most had no written form.

"changing the culture of whole towns and cities." frankly doesn't bother me a great deal, with one single exception. America is about a set of ideas. If anyone from anywhere who shares those ideas wants to follow the laws and migrate here, let them come. If they want to foster ideas contrary to those basic concepts, they should find somewhere more compatible--maybe the worker's paradise of Cuba.

"Responsible for increased crime in some areas." That one makes no sense at all projected back into the 16th and 17th century realities.

[Clio]

Originally Posted By: olger

Dear Planey. People who choose Jesus (and keep choosing Him) are going to spend forever with Him. Heaven will be filled people who have experienced loss & sorrow and have chosen to forgive.

I am considering starting a thread on forgiveness.

oG

Go for it! I'd like to see a thread on forgiveness. I think as people we have a very hard time not only with God's complete forgiveness but in completely forgiving others.

And forgiving themselves. Abba casts forgiven sin into the depths of the sea to be remembered no more.

Why do we cling to it so?