Immigration anxiety is cultural

[lazarus]

There is no other honest or reasonable explaination is there?

SAN DIEGO, California (CNN) -- On Thursday, senators announced a rather remarkable bipartisan compromise on immigration reform that combines border enforcement, a guest worker program, a path to legalization for illegal immigrants, tougher employer sanctions, and an education/skills-based point system for future immigrants.

The same day, the Census Bureau reported what many Americans already know: The United States is becoming a Hispanic nation. Hispanics are the nation's largest minority with 44.3 million people and they account for almost half the growth in the U.S. population. Meanwhile, since 2000, the white school-age population dropped 4 percent, and the white population shrank in sixteen states.

The stories are connected. Anti-illegal immigration crusaders claim their worries are entirely practical -- tied to border security or the cost of entitlements or the fact that illegal immigrants supposedly depress wages for the low skilled.

(That reminds me. Memo to the low skilled: "Grow up. Stop complaining. And go get more skills. Then you won't have to suffer the humiliation of being driven out of the market by folks with a sixth-grade education who are here illegally and don't even speak English.")

But I digress ...

As someone who has written about immigration for more than 15 years, and heard from hundreds of thousands of readers along the way, I can tell you that most of the anxiety over illegal immigration is cultural. People worry about changing demographics, the encroachment of Spanish, the fear that the country is becoming Hispanic-ized, etc. One sociologist called it "cultural displacement" [/b]-- the fear that your children will grow up in a world different than the one you grew up in, with fewer advantages, where they will have to work harder for what they accomplish.......more

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/05/21/navarrette/index.html

[jasd]

>>I can tell you that most of the anxiety over illegal immigration is cultural.<<

Given the mores and condition of the “Hispanic-ized” states in Central and South America…, is it a bad thing should Americans be anxious?

>>People worry about changing demographics,<<

…and, that’s a bad thing – to worry about changing demographics?

>>…the encroachment of Spanish,<<

I take it that the author speaks of the language Spanish: with the rest of the world (esp the internet) actively embracing the English language (example: there are more people in China learning English then there are Americans speaking English…) – a c’est la vie obsequence ought prevail?

>>…the fear that the country is becoming Hispanic-ized, etc.<<

Is that fear justified? and if so, is that, again, a ‘bad’ thing?

>>One sociologist called it "cultural displacement"<<

The ancient Greeks were displaced by the peoples of the Central Asian steppes – and wha’happened? ethnically and culturally, racially (physicality)…, etc? They are lost to history. Displaced, I think the operative term was, no?

It was not a thing of stupidity on the part of the Greeks but of greater forces: for an instance…, a famine caused mass migration – and those most noble people of Antiquity were – umm, kaput!

There is now ‘another noble people (el Norte)’ on the verge of extinction – in its broadest sense.

>>…the fear that your children will grow up in a world different than the one you grew up in, with fewer advantages, where they will have to work harder for what they accomplish.......more<<

Justifiably so. And, that is BAD.

(who are these advocates!)

[jasd]

Immigration? you didn't (on purpose?) forget the operative ==

illegal? now, didja'?

[lazarus]

Quote:

Immigration? you didn't (on purpose?) forget the operative ==

illegal? now, didja'?

English please!

[Dr. Shane]

It appears there are a lot of fear mongers out there stirring things up.

Let me tackle some of these concerns:

Spanish: In order to become a US citizen with the right to vote, these immigrants will have to learn English and US civics. Second generation children do not speak Spanish as their primary language and most third generation immigrants don't speak it at all unless they live in border regions. My own children are resisting it already.

Race: Intermarriage between Hispanics and white people is quite common. Rather than "taking over" America, Hispanics are more likely to intermarry with whites and assimulate.

Politics: Hispanics tend to vote more Democrat than Republican but among the educated that trend is less distinct. As this population grows and political parties shift, the political allegiance of the group will be even more evenly divided.

Corruption In Government: Corruption among Hispanic politicians certainly is high in the area I live. Police, judges, country treasures, mayors, commissioners and school board members are often arrested and jailed by the FBI. Many of them are second or third generation immigrants. As long as the Constitution and basic law enforcement structure of the US does not change, the US will be able to hold this type of corruption in check - but it is a legitimate concern.

Lower Wages: Much of the growth in the income gap which separates the rich and the poor, is a result of immigration. Many agricultural, meat processing and construction jobs which use to belong to the middle class now employ low-paid immigrants. There are various reasons for this, free-trade is one of them.

[Amelia]

Quote:

(That reminds me. Memo to the low skilled: "Grow up. Stop complaining. And go get more skills. Then you won't have to suffer the humiliation of being driven out of the market by folks with a sixth-grade education who are here illegally and don't even speak English.")

Amen to that Laz and I would like to add, stay in school and learn to read. A high school education is better than none at all.

Quote:

The United States is becoming a Hispanic nation

I'm not sure it's becoming a Hispanic nation but rather a nation of blended peoples. Decades ago the mixing of races was one of the biggest tabboos ever. Until the census, DMV, etc change their forms; race will only be represented as African American, white/caucasian, Hispanic, Asian, Native Amercian. I think if you were to ask someone in Florida, they might say they are more Cuban/Hatian than Hispanic.

[jasd]

>>English please!<<

Assimilate

[Bravus]

It's possible, by force, to keep the US a white, English-speaking, Protestant enclave. Is it desirable to do so? Apparently about half of the white, English-speaking Protestants there think so.

[jasd]

>>It appears there are a lot of fear mongers out there stirring things up.<<

Premise or Preface?

>>Spanish: In order to become a US citizen with the right to vote, these immigrants will have to learn English and US civics.<<

Election cycle before this (don’t have the numbers for this one) 300,000 illegals annulled the votes of citizens – by voting.

>>Second generation children do not speak Spanish as their primary language and most third generation immigrants don't speak it at all unless they live in border regions.<<

Not true. In order to function in the barrios, they almost have to know Spanish. (Almost every govt document I receive is printed in at least two languages –Spanish and English-- and that would include voter pamphlets. Why is the voter pamphlet printed in Spanish if those eligible to vote have already assimilated and speak no Spanish (or more properly, speak English)?

>>Race: Intermarriage between Hispanics and white people is quite common.<<

No problem there. That said, what is the ratio? And don’t forget, after time the Central Asian peoples intermarried with the Greeks – who have evolved into other than what they were originally.

>>Rather than "taking over" America,<<

“Hispanics are the nation's largest minority with 44.3 million people and they account for almost half the growth in the U.S. population.” --lead post

…and counting.

>>Hispanics are more likely to intermarry with whites and assimulate.<<

Again, no problem with interracial marriage; however, we’re talking about a sea change in America.

>>Politics: Hispanics tend to vote more Democrat than Republican but among the educated that trend is less distinct.<<

Hooray for education. That said, Hispanics tend to vote Catholic, that is, more Democratic.

>>As this population grows and political parties shift, the political allegiance of the group will be even more evenly divided.<<

Provided the two-party system still exists in fact moreso than in theory.

>>As long as the Constitution and basic law enforcement structure of the US does not change, the US will be able to hold this type of corruption in check - but it is a legitimate concern.<<

It is already out of check, and yes the numbers argue – change. Rent control was established in Santa Monica simply because the numbers of renters outnumbered the property owners.

>>Much of the growth in the income gap which separates the rich and the poor, is a result of immigration. Many agricultural, meat processing and construction jobs which use to belong to the middle class now employ low-paid immigrants. There are various reasons for this, free-trade is one of them.<<

Well-spoken. Example: the butchering business previously employed good, honest American citizens at pay sufficient to qualify for a 30-year mortgage. Those same butchers now must work for a fraction of their previous pay scale because of illegal immigrant pressure. They no longer are able to look forward to such things as sending their kids to college – as they must still meet their mortgage payment – but now, with a shrunken paycheck.

[jasd]

>>It's possible, by force, to keep the US a white, English-speaking, Protestant enclave. Is it desirable to do so?<< [ed.jasd]

Or, by law: unless, ‘illegal’ is simply an inconvenient truth.

>>Apparently about half of the white, English-speaking Protestants there think so.<<

Gd bless them.

[lazarus]

>>English please!<<

Assimilate

Just like the BORG eh.

I will never assimulate if means becoming a WASP. Assimulation is code for adopting the additude of the current majority. One of my sons was born here but I will encourage him to celebrate his non-American heritage as well as his American heritage.

[Bravus]

jasd wrote:

Quote:

>>It's possible, by force, to keep the US a white, English-speaking, Protestant enclave. Is it desirable to do so?

Or, by law: unless, ‘illegal’ is simply an inconvenient truth.

It is indeed possible by law, by creating the equivalent of the White Australia policy we had in the bad old days. If the intention is to keep America white, English-speaking and Protestant then the policies in relation to legal immigration will have to be changed.

And yes, of course illegal immigration will have to be stemmed and eventually halted... and employers who employ illegal immigrants will have to face penalties if that's going to happen.

The point of the original article was that the hysteria about illegal immigration is at bottom not about economics but about xenophobia, or if that is too strong a word at least about the desire to preserve homogeneity. Bad news: it's already too late.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Election cycle before this (don’t have the numbers for this one) 300,000 illegals annulled the votes of citizens – by voting.

Election fraud is not caused by immigration. It is easily fixed by requiring a photo id when voting.

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Not true. In order to function in the barrios, they almost have to know Spanish.

What is spoken in the "barrios" is Spangish which is poor Spanish and poor English mixed together. It can be compared with Ebonics that many blacks speak. However it is not the primary language spoken by most second and third generation immigrants.

Quote:

Hispanics tend to vote Catholic, that is, more Democratic.

Because of the abortion issue, most Catholic officials encourage their members to vote for pro-life candidates. Democrats tend to come up short in that area. I haven't seen a break down of the Catholic vote but I find it hard to believe that it favors either party by any large margin.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Assimilation is code for adopting the additude of the current majority.

Assimilation is simple doing as the Romans when in Rome. This is wise, especially if our goal in life is to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ. I have lived in Panama, Mexico and El Salvador. When living in those countries, I found the best way to be an effective witness was to become as the people. To the greatest extent possible, I adopted their customs, their diet and took interest in their past-times.

Study after study after study will show that immigrants that assimilate have the greatest success not only in the US but in any nation. One thing that hold back many first generation, Hispanic immigrants is not learning the language and not becoming an active part of their communities here. Their children normally don't make the same mistake and their grandchildren rarely do.

[jasd]

>>Just like the BORG eh.<<

I've always thought they were a little square.

>>I will never assimulate if means becoming a WASP.<<

That would prove difficult, wouldn't it?

>>Assimulation is code for adopting the additude of the current majority.<<

Rather, I think of it as showing respect for the country of one's emigration; otherwise, why wouldn't one just remain in their own country?

>>One of my sons was born here but I will encourage him to celebrate his non-American heritage as well as his American heritage.<<

That's copacetic.

[jasd]

>>It is indeed possible by law,<<

It was, primarily, to laws that are already extant I referred. There is somethin’ bad wrong with advocating a climate of scofflaw – esp where the costs are so demonstrably prohibitve.

>>…by creating the equivalent of the White Australia policy we had in the bad old days.<<

That was never the case in America and I don’t think that anyone here is really advocating an equivalent of such laws as were formerly held by the Australians. That said,

I don’t think that one is amiss to suggest that the illegal immigrant situation, as presently existing, is tragically unfair to those of the many nations where people are lawfully awaiting their papers. No one,

most especially me, condones cutting into a queue; well, it seems –there are those.

>>If the intention is to keep America white, English-speaking and Protestant then the policies in relation to legal immigration will have to be changed.<<

The WASP is already a fast-fading minority in their own nation. Is that a good thing?

I agree, the laws should be streamlined -- esp for men. We’re going to need bunches of them come the draft.

>>And yes, of course illegal immigration will have to be stemmed and eventually halted...<<

How about – immediately halted? I’m glad to see at least a nod to objectionable illegal immigration.

>>…and employers who employ illegal immigrants will have to face penalties if that's going to happen.<<

Well said. I favor seizure of the entire assets of any and all offenders – even to seizures extending beyond corporate safeguards.

>>The point of the original article was that the hysteria about illegal immigration is at bottom not about economics…<<

Economics is always at the bottom. It is inescapable.

>>…but about xenophobia, or if that is too strong a word…<<

And no, its ‘irrational’ connotation aside, xenophobia is not too harsh.

>>…at least about the desire to preserve homogeneity.<<

Call it xenophobia. Europe is hastily developing a healthy and justified distrust of the non-assimilating foreigner.

>>Bad news: it's already too late.<<

Yes, too late. Bad news? -- La Raza, Aztlan, May Day demonstrations, etc…? Indeed.

That said, when there is an overflow -- the spigot can and ought to be turned off.

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:jasd

Election cycle before this (don’t have the numbers for this one) 300,000 illegals annulled the votes of citizens – by voting.

Election fraud is not caused by immigration. It is easily fixed by requiring a photo id when voting.

My concern is with the ‘illegal’ vote.

“In 1994 Mario Aburto Martinez, the assassin of Mexican presidential candidate Luis Donaldo Colosio, was found to have been registered to vote twice by groups like this one.”

>>…requiring a photo id when voting.<<

However, as of now…, not all States require a photo ID to vote; and worse, the trend seems to be towards voting by mail.

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:jasd

Not true. In order to function in the barrios, they almost have to know Spanish.

What is spoken in the "barrios" is Spangish which is poor Spanish and poor English mixed together. It can be compared with Ebonics that many blacks speak. However it is not the primary language spoken by most second and third generation immigrants.

Okay, I accept that. So that’s what is spoken in East LA High Schools; at least, that is halfway there.

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:jasd

Hispanics tend to vote Catholic, that is, more Democratic.

Because of the abortion issue, most Catholic officials encourage their members to vote for pro-life candidates. Democrats tend to come up short in that area. I haven't seen a break down of the Catholic vote but I find it hard to believe that it favors either party by any large margin.

“In 2000 70% of the Catholic Hispanic vote went to Gore.”

“In 2004 64% of the Catholic vote from those of Mexican descent went to Kerry.”

It is not with Hispanics, per se, that I have a grief. It is with my own Govt. The present situation of allowing and encouraging an inundation of this nation by combined illegal immigrants -- is chaotic and insane. At the very least,

they should be stopped at the border and given inoculations. They are bringing in very serious diseases for which the American population has no developed immunity. Only the good Lord knows what else is being brought. And,

let’s not forget the pronounced antipathy that a great many of the influx hold towards us.

All of the above said,

one cannot, for the most part, fault those desiring to come to America; however, the implications of their doing so far exceed the

simple desires of most of those traveling El Norte.

[David Koot]

America at its inception represented the best of the Enlightenment, as far as governance; and the Puritan ethic as far as the common people (at least in New England. South of there, traditions varied. But, still, more or less enlightened.) Immigration patterns prior to the Civil War were homogeneous with those traditions, with the exception of the Irish and the Germans. As for the Germans, while not sharing all the traditions of the Enlightenment (the German states remained remarkably feudal) these immigrants, too, were hard-working, industrious and honest.

The recent waves of immigration are not homogeneous with those traditions or cultural mores. The immigrants are accustomed to corruption in their home governments. They bring that here. Thus, the concern is not necessarily or primarily racial.

[bevin]

Quote:

The immigrants are accustomed to corruption in their home governments. They bring that here.

ROFLOL

Tamany Hall. Mayor Daly. Randy Cunningham. Heckuva Job Brownie.

When I was a kid, a standard joke about the USA was "it had the best government that money can buy".

I had a summer job with Mobil Oil in Wellington in NZ. Mobil had run into a spot of bother with the NZ Govt. Some head-office USA people were sent out to resolve it. Their first question, by office rumor, was "Who do we pay and how much?" and they were surprised to learn that things didn't work that way in NZ.

/Bevin

[Bravus]

jasd: I agree with stopping illegal immigration, and that it is wrong in principle and in fact.

I'm concerned partly though with why it has been condoned for so long by so many, and with the sheer logistics (and potential human rights nightmares) of rounding up and repatriating 12 million people.

So while solutions like amnesties have huge flaws in justice, they may well have pragmatic benefits, not least in fostering the very kind of assimilation into mainstream American society that you're advocating.

So if it were possible to completely or almost completely stop new illegals coming in, that would be a good thing, but would still leave the problem of the 12 million people (more than half the entire population of Australia) already living in the country.

[jasd]

>>jasd: I agree with stopping illegal immigration, and that it is wrong in principle and in fact.<<

I applaud you.

>>I'm concerned partly though with why it has been condoned for so long by so many,<<

I suspect that it may have something to do with the basic goodness and likeability of most of the Hispanics (that is not to say that the illegal factor redounds only to them). I’ve found that almost every Hispanic I’ve met is more than agreeable. (I almost married a fine woman from Guadalajara. I’ve ever since regretted that I opted for ‘party on!’ rather than domesticity with her. Ah well, que sera…)

>>…and with the sheer logistics (and potential human rights nightmares) of rounding up and repatriating 12 million people.<<

I don’t think that is feasible. I would not advocate that – except for those who’ve demonstrated themselves to be very undesirable…, the ‘plata o plomo’ bunch, for example, or their like. Either ship them out, muy pronto! or settle them in for very long stays in the tent cities of Arizona.

>>So while solutions like amnesties have huge flaws in justice, they may well have pragmatic benefits,<<

Re amnesties: not until we’ve addressed other existing factors – those who are still in queue, for instance.

>>…not least in fostering the very kind of assimilation into mainstream American society that you're advocating.<<

Pragmatism as it stands is exactly what has engendered the problem in the first place. The first and foremost pragmatic benefit I perceive is the enlarged pool of green card recipients that would be available for the draft. That, though, would seem to be a bit cynical

>>So if it were possible to completely or almost completely stop new illegals coming in,<<

It is possible for other countries to do so: why would it be impossible for us? It seems the answer suggests itself and kills two birds with one stone, as it were – scatter our nuclear waste along our Southern border [/kidding ]

Seriously, the coast of Oregon is strewn with motion sensors – so that it is quite impossible for drugs and other contraband to be smuggled in by coastal means.

>>…that would be a good thing, but would still leave the problem of the 12 million people<<

That problem would best be dealt with by placing those 12 million on the back burner with its most immediate aspects addressed, well – immediately. (…the overwhelming demands placed upon our medical facilities, for example. It is unreasonable that the citizens of this country should see nigh-on a hundred medical facilities closed in California alone because of unpaid demands placed upon them. Those same demands are now being felt elsewhere…)

As it stands, the new legislation proposes to legalize those 12 (to 20) million and grant them the right to 'sponsor' four more of their immediate family. (so how much time will pass before there is a black market in the sale of those 'relative documents' {no pun} to every national --to be feared, or otherwise-- from every which other country?)

>>(more than half the entire population of Australia) already living in the country.<<

Speaking of which: I’ve heard that Australia is experiencing a drought so severe that there are plans in the works for the govt to evacuate 11 million Aussies elsewhere. Is that true? or is that another urban legend?

[Bravus]

Sounds like an urban legend in scale but not in detail: we are indeed suffering a major drought, with dams where I live at about 15% of capacity and falling fast. We have had less than a third of our normal summer rains this year, but that's in the 7th or so year of drought. The same is true for most of the populated areas of Australia, although ironically last year the country as a whole had above average rainfall. It all just fell in the largely uninhabited tropical far north.

[lazarus]

Rather, I think of it as showing respect for the country of one's emigration; otherwise, why wouldn't one just remain in their own country?

Americans live quite happily in europe or elsewhere and do not adopt the attitudes of the majority of the host country. It happens all the time.

[lazarus]

America at its inception represented the best of the Enlightenment, as far as governance; and the Puritan ethic as far as the common people (at least in New England.

I don't really accept that version of history, even though it is most widely received. For Native Americans and Africans the birth of America was not very enlightened. It was a very dark and painful period characterised by ignorance and suffering.

[lazarus]

In the same way that the arrival of europeans changed the North American continent forever the 12-20 million illegal immigrants will dramatically change the US. I think it will become the norm to be bilingual and as some have predicted the white majority will become a large minority.

Of course this Bill is amnesty but the US can't deport 12 million and the corporations need the cheap labour. By the time the dust settles Texas will be Mexican again!