Immigration anxiety is cultural

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

In the same way that the arrival of Europeans changed the North American continent forever the 12-20 million illegal immigrants will dramatically change the US.

In the same way???

Europeans brought technology and industrialization that completely transformed North America from what is was to what it became. By no stretch of the imagination will the 12 to 20 million illegal immigrants do that. - especially since they are mostly uneducated peasants that cannot earn a living in their home country.

Quote:

By the time the dust settles Texas will be Mexican again!

Whites are already a minority in Texas. However this is not an "again" situation. Whites are now a minority in Texas for the first time. Texas was settled by mostly American and European immigrants. It was part of Mexico's territory but when Mexico trashed their own constitution, Texas (being mostly American and European) became independent and was its own sovereign nation for some years before becoming part of the United States.

[David Koot]

Tamany Hall. Mayor Daly. Randy Cunningham. Heckuva Job Brownie.

When I was a kid, a standard joke about the USA was "it had the best government that money can buy".

"America at its inception . . ."

The Jacksonian revolution marked a steep decline in American governance IMO. Nevertheless, reforms inaugurated under Garfield, with the Civil Service System, for example, went a long way toward addressing the problem. In America, while there are problems at times, they are dealt with sternly, with prison sentences where appropriate. In some of the other countries, the problem is endemic and accepted as the norm. As one man who was born in Mexico and emigrated here told me today, "in Mexico that happens. It doesn't here."

Dave

[Dr. Shane]

Let me give an example.

In Mexico a boy rapes a girl. The girl's father is wealthy. He pays the police to beat the boy up when they arrest him. He pays the judge to sentence the boy to 25 years in prison. The boy is taken care of.

Next story.

In Mexico a poor boy rapes a poor girl. The police arrest him and he gets sentenced to five years in prison.

Next story.

In Mexico a rich boy rapes a poor girl. The police arrest him and he gets out on bail the next day. The boy's father bribes the district attorney so charges are dropped. Or the boy's father bribes the judge and the boy gets six months in jail.

That kind of corruption is common place in Mexico. It is unheardof in the United States.

[David Koot]

For Native Americans and Africans the birth of America was not very enlightened. It was a very dark and painful period characterised by ignorance and suffering.

In comparison with conditions during previous centuries in Europe, things were rather enlightened in the late 18th c. Granted, it would take some time for the enlightenment to embrace other races, byt the focus at the time was on issues within Western Europe.

As for the Native Americans, a well-known American historian spent extended time with a number of the Indian tribes, during the first half of the 19th c. (I forget his name now, but have read his account.) According to his account and that of other observers, the lifestyle of the Native Americans was not, comparatively speaking, enlightened. Violence and brutality was a way of life, among other issues.

Dave

[David Koot]

It is unheardof in the United States.

True, indeed. There are some very alert 'watchdogs,' both within and outside the legal system, who would 'bark' if such a thing were attempted. In fact, there are mandatory sentencing guidelines, certainly in a number of jurisdictions. If dad were to try such a thing, he would be charged with attempted bribery. If a judge or DA were to accept such a bribe, s/he would be arrested and charged.

Dave

[Dr. Shane]

Corruption along in Texas along the Mexico border is not nearly as bad as it is in Mexico but is worse than it is in other parts of the country. Louisiana is one of the only other areas that compares from what I understand.

I have lived here nine years. I live in Hidalgo county one mile from the Camaron county line. Our local news channels cover about a five county area. Since I have lived here I have seen a country treasurer go to jail for embezzlement, a county judge commit suicide after getting caught taking bribes, a sheriff go to prison for running drugs, a police chief and a deputy go to prison for running drugs, a boarder patrol agent was arrested for letting drug runners bring drugs through his lane, a county commissioner get caught letting his friends use county land for agriculture at no cost, a local mayor arrested for I don't remember, a school board member arrested for taking bribes from a contractor and a different school board member arrested for taking bribes from an architect. All those were in the past nine years in a two-county area and those are only the ones that got caught.

Now that kind of corruption isn't to the extent one finds in Mexico but it is certainly much greater than what we had in rural Minnesota.

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:

by lazarus >>Assimulation is code for adopting the additude of the current majority.<<

quote:jasd Rather, I think of it as showing respect for the country of one's emigration; otherwise, why wouldn't one just remain in their own country?

Americans live quite happily in europe or elsewhere and do not adopt the attitudes of the majority of the host country. It happens all the time.

Good point – assimilation vis-à-vis yourself. However,

assimilation as pertains to this discussion: I think the concern is more about demographics.

A few American expatriates in foreign countries, paying their way, cannot be equated with multitudes who destabilize and generate sea changes in an existing society. And as we’re speaking of American Society,

without attempting to appear chauvinistic – well, need it be said…?

Per your situation: well, that’s copacetic.

Additionally, digressing…: the above spoken-of [American] corruption was/is incidental and anecdotal; whereas, that brought from so-called third world countries is –

pervasive, and I believe, the term was used here…, endemic. That is not to say,

I don’t suspect we, ourselves, are devolving.

(I was standing next to a man from China a few years back and as he watched someone purchase a newspaper from a coin-operated dispenser… he marveled, “America is so wonderful!”

I asked why he said that and he replied that were this China, the man would have put his quarter in the dispenser and absconded with the entire contents – to sell elsewhere or to simply thieve)

Thanks, Bravus, for the update from our Southern newsdesk.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Americans live quite happily in Europe or elsewhere and do not adopt the attitudes of the majority of the host country.

This is one of the reasons Americans have been despised by other countries long before Bush ever went to the White House. When in Rome, do as Rome does.

[lazarus]

Here, quite explicitly, is what I was talking about. At least Bill O'Really is quite candid about what the real issue is.

Bill O'Reilly: But do you understand what the New York Times wants, and the far-left want? They want to break down the white, Christian, male power structure, which you're a part, and so am I, and they want to bring in millions of foreign nationals to basically break down the structure that we have. In that regard, Pat Buchanan is right. So I say you've got to cap with a number.

John McCain: In America today we've got a very strong economy and low unemployment, so we need addition farm workers, including by the way agriculture, but there may come a time where we have an economic downturn, and we don't need so many.

[crosstalk]

O'Reilly: But in this bill, you guys have got to cap it. Because estimation is 12 million, there may be 20 [million]. You don't know, I don't know. We've got to cap it.

McCain: We do, we do. I agree with you.

http://www.democrats.org/a/2007/05/mccain_agrees_w.php

[Amelia]

Jun 2, 2007

Migrants See Abuse in Guest Worker Jobs

By LAURA WIDES-MUNOZ

Associated Press Writer

ARCADIA, Fla. (AP) -- Kenny Jesus Zavala heard too many horror stories to enter the U.S. illegally. But when a recruiter came to his central Mexico hometown and offered him a legal path as a temporary worker, it sounded too good to pass up.

The recruiter promised that with an H-2A agriculture work visa, Zavala would earn $8.56 an hour picking oranges with no fear of sudden deportation. Zavala, 21, earned that much, but as soon as he cashed his check, the contractor would steal a third of the pay.

"The contractor told us that if we spoke up, no one would want to hire us again," said Zavala of Moroleon, in the Mexican state of Guanajuato. "It's worse than for the illegals because you're not free to go. You have to stay with the contractor that brought you."

The agriculture guest worker program was designed to provide a stable, legal work force for agriculture with safe working conditions for the immigrants, without adversely affecting local wages. More than 37,000 such visas were issued nationwide last year, primarily to Mexicans.

But farm worker advocates say the act has not met its goals - workers are still abused and often left dependent on middlemen who steal their money. And they say it shields corporate growers from lawsuits and sanctions over lost wages, leaving the workers with nowhere to turn. An Associated Press review of temporary farmworker requests in Florida found nearly two-thirds were filed by contractors.

Advocates want Congress to address those problems as it contemplates reauthorizing thousands more temporary farm workers under the proposed immigration bill.

Zavala was one of nearly a dozen migrant workers in central Florida who told The AP about being forced to pay contractors kickbacks. Most declined to give their names for fear of retribution. Many are afraid to file complaints because the contractors decide who gets to come back the following year. The contractors also provide worker housing, serve as translators and often offer the only ride to the grocery store or to the doctor.

Unscrupulous contractors once doctored the hours of the employees to steal from them. But as more large growers switch to electronic timekeeping, they are finding new means to squeeze money from the workers, said Mary Bauer, who recently co-wrote a study on the U.S. guest worker program for the Southern Poverty Law Center

"This seems like a new variation on an old theme," Bauer said. "Growers create this system where they claim the workers are not their employees to get cover. They benefit from it, and the contractors benefit, but the workers don't."

Her group wants the U.S. to require growers - not the contractors - to file guest worker requests with the federal Labor Department and step up enforcement of existing guest worker protection laws.

Walter Kates, who heads labor relations for the growers' Florida Fruit and Vegetable Association, said growers rely on the contractors because the current visa system is so convoluted - employers must get approval from four different federal and state agencies. That makes it impossible to guarantee they will get their workers on time without contractors.

"If there are problems out there, the majority of the industry condemns them as much as anyone else does. We don't condone cheating workers, and we don't want to be labeled with that black brush," Kates said.

Because the workers are loath to complain and lose their jobs, most keep quiet or return to their native country. A growing number are also opting to go the illegal route where they are not dependent on one contractor.

Mexico City native Genaro Flores, 26, decided to go home in March after two weeks of losing money to the man who hired him. He has since returned to the U.S. illegally, working in Atlanta as a day laborer.

"It's a lot better here," he said. "I'm making money and I don't have to give it to the contractor."

The contractor system, in which independent harvest companies supply workers to large corporate growers, has exploded in the last 20 years. Many of these operations can fold up quickly if sued and lack the deep pockets of larger agriculture conglomerates.

A review of petitions requesting 4,700 guest worker permits in Florida since last September, showed about 75 percent were filed by contractors rather than growers, especially in the citrus industry. Tomato growers, who need more help year-round, are far less likely to rely on a middleman.

Part of the problem is that the contractor is caught between the grower and the worker.

The current H-2A agriculture visa allows workers to come to the U.S. for three- to six-month periods if local help cannot be found. The temporary workers must receive above average pay - $8.56 an hour in Florida.

Yet citrus pickers, the largest percentage of Florida's guest workers, are usually paid by the number of oranges they pick and not by the hour. They have to pick about one orange every two seconds to reach $8.56 an hour.

Many do not, especially those attracted by the promise of a legal job who may not have a background in farm work. And growers don't necessarily subsidize the makeup pay the contractors must shell out, said Greg Schell, an attorney for Florida Rural Legal Services.

Complaints can backfire. Consolidated Citrus LP, which employs Zavala's boss, Benjamin Ramirez Harvesting, threatened to fire at least one contractor in the wake of worker complaints about pay. That would have left all the workers out of a job.

In response to the workers' concerns, Consolidated handed out written messages to workers with their checks reminding them they "were under no obligation" to give money to Ramirez. He did not return repeated calls from the AP.

Mike Bartos, Consolidated human resources head, said he could not discuss ongoing cases but said the company had received complaints from Rural Legal Services, which prompted the messages. He said the company offers training for contractors and brings in federal and state agencies to talk with them about labor issues.

"If something like this is going on, (Consolidated) would not tolerate it," he said.

Earlier this year, Schell signed roughly 20 people to a claim against the kickbacks. By May, all but four had returned early to Mexico, including Zavala, or no longer wanted to press their case fearing retaliation.

Zavala said Ramirez kept the temporary Social Security cards of those who left, meaning they could be used again for other workers.

For now, Zavala is biding his time, hoping his early return won't affect his ability to get a visa next year. He wants to return to the U.S. legally to work for a friend gardening in Chicago.

If that doesn't work out, he might come back illegally across the desert.

[Robert]

No, it has nothing to do with culture, but it has everything to do with partiality. That, in itself, is racist. How so? Because there are people from all nationalities legally waiting to get in. But no, Hispanics are special because they can cut in line.

The fact is these people are breaking the law. If you are going to have law you must place everyone under it. If not, you begin practicing discrimination. If it is illegal for a Chinese guy to live here illegally then it is equally illegal for the Mexican guy.

Of course the Hispanics are only half the problem. The other lawbreakers are the Employers. Crack down on them and a large percentage of the illegals would go home. But it isn’t being done! Why? Bribery and corruption at the highest level.

Rob

[Woody]

What about the Cubans. They have the greatest discrimination "for" them. All others are discriminated "against" in regards to immigration.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Bill O'Reilly: But do you understand what the New York Times wants, and the far-left want? They want to break down the white, Christian, male power structure, which you're a part, and so am I...

I suspect that the DNC is taking O'Reilly out of context as so many of his critics do. I have a good idea of what the context is from watching and listening to him for some time but I can't be sure.

Bill O'Reilly is likely saying that the New York Times and the far-left view the power structure in America as being white, Christian, male-powered. Furthermore he is adding that the NY Times and the far-left see him and Senators like McCain as part of the structure. I doubt that O'Reilly agrees with that NY Times about that view. However O'Reilly believes that the NY Times and far-left liberals favor radical changes to immigration law because of their view of America's power structure and their desire to destroy it. That would be my guess at the context.

Is America's power structure white, Christian male? I think there are a million ways to answer that. At this time, whites out number others so one would expect the majority of the population to have most of the power.

Then we move to the next question: who has the majority of college degrees. If I am not mistaken, that would be white women. Of course motherhood causes many of them to drop out of the workforce while their male peers continue to advance, which is why white men tend to hold more positions of authority than white women.

The big question which I don't have a clue about its answer is, do minorities hold a proportionate number of executive jobs as they do college degrees? That is, if 20% of those with college degrees are minorities, are 20% of the executive positions held by minorities?

Personally, I think fear is impacting a lot of people's positions on immigration but I will start another thread about that specific topic.

[lazarus]

Is America's power structure white, Christian male? I think there are a million ways to answer that. At this time, whites out number others so one would expect the majority of the population to have most of the power.

In the area of politics, business, news media etc. there is only one answer. The answer is simply yes. The power is disproportionate however!

If you watch the mcCain interview the context show exactly what he meant. watch the video.

http://www.johnmccain.com/Blog/Read.aspx?guid=6a0c5227-7f85-49a9-9035-6671166392bc

[lazarus]

No, it has nothing to do with culture, but it has everything to do with partiality.

Language is not an issue of legality it is about culture. The whole discussion is laden with concerns about the future of America, linguistically and culturally.

At least Bill O'Really is honest enough to say what its really about. He may not speak for you but he speaks for alot of people in the US.

[Dr. Shane]

Can't follow the link at home since I went back to dial-up. I am so backed up at work I have been working my lunch hours so I am not sure I will get a chance there either, at least for a few days.

Depending on the perspective, America certainly is dominated by white males but I am not sure the pronoun "Christian" would be correct. But those white males are a majority so that would be expected. Where I live, Hispanics dominate the power structure. We have few, very few, white people elected to office. Our public school administrations are dominate by Hispanic males. Our courts are dominated by Hispanic males both on the bench and in the prosecuting offices. Many of the banks in the area have Hispanic CEO and many of the small business owners I work with are Hispanics. Since our population is 90% Hispanic, that is to be expected.

To see if leadership positions are proportionate to the population, we classify only those holding a college degree as professionals. So just because blacks make up x% of the population in general doesn't mean they make up x% of the professional community. If blacks are more likely to go to college than Hispanics than it wouldn't be surprising to find more blacks in leadership positions than Hispanics even though the Hispanic population is larger.