Aside genocide acts what else is God capable of?

[Raphael]

Recalling threads on Gods capability of committing acts seemingly questionable such as the instruction of genocide acts, sparing non, including women, children and civilians. These may still be plausibly seen as God's execution of ‘deserved’ punishment. But what about the case (was that Jeremiah, Isaiah or some other minor prophet) where God requested beings to 'come forth' to perform a role of the lying spirit... and a spirit came forth to execute the request... I believe that there are other instances in the Bible sharing these similar likes.

Can God, in His convenience hide behind His renowned alibis of 'allowing' ... when God called Michael as His right hand, to rise up against Satan, 'His left hand'. Can God still remain conveniently 'uninvolved' simply by saying that He allowed His hand (either that be right or left) to do as pleases?

Just wondering... and of course there will always endless things to wonder on God. We have been told that it would be an eternal study, growth etc.

As I have mentioned several times in other threads that, since there is no where else to go in a sane mind aside to God, though how many questions may arise, the point remains by just considering the factual options and eventually, if not immediately one may come to an agreement.

Hopefully someone may provide exciting invigorating new angles of thought that may cultivate & expand minds.

May God be always compassionate on the blind and the wounded from head to toe.

God is love,

Raphael

[skyblue888]

Concerning this subject, "Darkness covers the earth and gross darkness the people." Isaiah 60:2.

"It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men have lost their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminationg in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth." Christ's Object Lessons, p.415.

[skyblue888]

God provided in Christ's life and teachings the complete and final means whereby every theory about Him can be tested. By this means, every interpretation of God's behaviour can be infallibly categorized as true or false. Thus, for instance, the idea that God destroys those who defy Him is classified as erroneous.

If faith can take firm hold upon the principle that Christ is the perfect and incontrovertible expression of all that God is, the ground work has been thoroughly laid for revising the common interpretations of the Old Testament stories. Confidence will be established in the truth that there is an alternative version of what God actally did in those situations.

[skyblue888]

When upon this earth, God the Father, in Christ, showed no disposition to reach out in acts of punishment and destruction. It was not because He was afforded no opportunity or power to do so. He certainly had the power as was manifested in His miracles of healing, His command of the wild storms, and His ability to restrain the demoniacs.

There was no lack of occasion for the administration of punishment and destruction, for He was continually confronted with those who despised His offers of salvation, not only refusing to obey Him, but actually working in open rebellion against Him.

More than this, He was urged to raise His hand and rain fire upon those who had turned against Him:

"James and John, Christ's messengers, were greatly annoyed at the insult shown to their Lord. They were filled with indignation because He had been so rudely treated by the Samaritans whom He was honouring by His presence. They had recently been with Him on the mount of transfiguration, and had seen Him glorified by God, and honoured by Moses and Elijah. This manifest dishonour on the part of the Samaritans, should not, they thought, be passed over without marked punishment.

"Coming to Christ, they reported to Him the words of the people, telling Him that they had even refused to give Him a night's lodging. They thought that a grievous thing had been done Him, and seeing Mount Carmel in the distance, where Elijah had slain the false prophets, they said, 'Wilt Thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, as Elijah did?'" The Desire of Ages, p.487.

Those men were familiar with Old Testament history and they thought they understood quite well the way in which God had dealt with similar offences in the past. Therefore, they believed that they were asking Christ to do just what they were sure God would have done under the circumstances. Their misunderstanding of His character led them to expect Christ to endorse their suggestion.

Like millions before and since, those men had a concept of God and His kingdom which differed in no way from earthly kings and their kingdoms. For this reason they held to the expectation that Christ would establish a kingdom by using force and comnpulsion. So firmly entrenched was this idea that Christ's efforts to disillusion them proved fruitless. They came to the last Passover making no provision whatsoever for Christ's rejection, a crown of thorns, and a crucifixion.

In order to understand the Samaritan incident, it is important to recognize that the apostles did have a very wrong concept of God's character and that their request to Jesus was made in harmony with that erroneous idea. They looked upon God as a majestic Being of judgment and destruction who would miss no opportunity of asserting His authority by making an example of the impenitent.

They believed that Christ was on the journey of His coronation in Jerusalem so that if there was ever a time when men should have a signal lesson of the peril of withholding homage, this was that moment. A few lives sacrificed now, would save many later.

If the disciples had been correct in their assessment of God's character, if what they thought they understood God as doing in the Old Testament, had been what He really had done, then, because Christ did only as and what the Father did, He would have called down fire from heaven there and then. This would have been a splendid opportunity for Christ to show forth the character of God as the executioner of those who rebelled against Him. Christ would have taken full advantage of such a splendid opportunity to show this aspect of God's policies.

But Christ would not even consider doing any such thing. Instead, He rebuked the disciples. "They were surprised to see that Jesus was pained by their words, and still more surprised as His rebuke fell upon their ears, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of Man is not come to destory man's lives, but to save them.' And He went to another village.'"

Christ did not use this opportunity to show forth the Father as an executioner because that is not God's character. But this does not mean that He missed the chance of revealing the Father. Far from it. This was a golden opportunity to do so and He made the most of it.

He instructed His followers that the course they proposed sprang from a spirit foreign both to Him and His Father. Such a spirit and its fruit, not being found in the divine nature, found its source in Satan's heart. It was his way, not God's, to destroy those who failed to serve him.

"[color:#330099]There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the dispostion to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas." The Desire of Ages, p.487.

"[color:#330099]We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and longsuffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restrain is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an execution of the sentence against transgression. He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves to reap that which they have sown... The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is as last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan." The Great Controversy, p.36.

sky

[skyblue888]

"There can be no more conclusive evidence that we possess the spirit of Satan than the dispostion to hurt and destroy those who do not appreciate our work, or who act contrary to our ideas." The Desire of Ages, p.487.

The Samaritans did not appreciate Christ's work and they certainly acted contrary to His ideas. Had Christ shown the least disposition to hurt or destroy them, He would have given the strongest evidence that He possessed the spirit of Satan. It was because He did not possess that spirit that He did not show any such disposition.

If we project this principle back to God's behaviour in the Old Testament, the same conclusions must be maintained. Let the popular concept of God's character be thus tested.

If every person in the world could see God in Christ with the understanding that Christ gave a full and undimmed revelation of the Father; if they could know that "All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son," Testimonies, Vol.8, p.286; they would reject every concept which sees God as One who rises up and destroys those who are disobedient. They would see Him only as a Saviour, who, while He cannot condone and support sin, will not destroy those who cherish it, but will accept their freedom to choose their own way and perish.

"God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression. He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown... The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan." G.C.36.

[melvin mccarty]

Hmmmm somewhere I heard about a universal flood. Did the devil really do that?

mel

[skyblue888]

Hmmmm somewhere I heard about a universal flood. Did the devil really do that?

mel

hmmm somewhere I read in the Scriptures that "God slew Saul and turned the kingdom over to David." 1 Chronicles 10:14. How did God slay him? Was He the executioner? It is true that God slew him but how? In verse 4 it says that "Saul took a sword and fell on it."

It was a case of suicide and yet the we read that "God slew him." This language throughout the Scriptures is consistent. But God's ways are not our ways. "For My thoughts are not your thoughts nor are your ways My ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8,9.

If God was responsible for the flood, then He stands toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgresssion!

[John317]

Hmmmm somewhere I heard about a universal flood. Did the devil really do that?

mel

The Bible clearly says many times that God caused the Flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. In fact, the Bible says the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is an example of God's destruction of the wicked at the end of the 1000 years, described in Rev. 20: 9.

We have to realize that whatever God does is right. All morality comes out of God. God is above all law because God made all law. The moral law is a written expression of God's character, but it was written and adapted especially for mankind. We do an injustice to God when we think that He must always obey His own law as we understand it. For instance, the law prohibits murder, yet God tells people to take human life. Given the fact that all human life comes from God, doesn't God have the right to destroy human life if He wants to or deems it the right thing to do? Of course he does. He doesn't HAVE to get our permission to do it. He wants us to know why He did it, but He is not obligated to inform us, etc. What He does He does out of love for us, not out of obligation or necessity. It's a hard thing to say, but the truth is that if God had destroyed all human beings at the Fall of Adam, God would have been right to do it. He did not HAVE TO save anyone. If He saves anyone at all, it is matter of pure grace and love for us who are totally undeserving.

[skyblue888]

Thus we may learn from king Saul's death that the Spirit of God was at last withdrawn from him and there was left no power to control the evil passions of his soul and that he had no more protection from the malice and enmity of Satan.

[skyblue888]

The Bible clearly says many times that God caused the Flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

**************************************

John, there is no question as to what the Bible says God did. Like you, I do believe the Scriptures when they say that God "sent" the flood or that He "sent His armies" (Roman armies) to destroy Jerusalem. The Bible also says that "God killed Saul." 1 Chro.10:14. I believe that but what does that mean exactly? Was He the executioner? Saul killed himself! "He took a sword and fell on it." verse 4. This shows that God's ways are not our ways. So we must be careful how we interpret the language of the Bible when it comes to His ways. When the language of the Bible concerning the principles of God's dealing with men is rightly understood, another picture of God emerges.

_________________________________

In fact, the Bible says the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is an example of God's destruction of the wicked at the end of the 1000 years, described in Rev. 20: 9.

************************************

John, we are also told that the destruction of Jerusalem is an example of God's destruction of the wicked before Christ's second coming. Here again, the language of the Bible is consistent. In Matt.22 God (the king) is pictured as being "furious" with the Jews and therefore it is said that "He sent His armies" (the Roman armies) to "destroy those murderers and burn up their city. See Matt.22:7.

This is the language of the Bible. However, in the book The Great Controversy, p.28, we read, "God withdrew His protection from them and removed His restraining power from Satan and his angels, and the nation was left to the control of the leader she had chosen." Then we read these words: "Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work." p.35.

Since this is the way the language of Matt.22 is to be taken, then the language of the Bible concerning the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and the destruction that took place at the time of the flood, must be taken the same way for "The principles of God's dealing with men are ever the same." G.C.343.

_________________________

[John317]

I understand clearly what you are saying.

But if God didn't bring a flood on the earth, then the language of the Bible appears to be deceptive and unreliable. The only way to explain it would be if Moses was mistaken to think that God did it. For clearly the language used can only mean that the writer intended for his readers to believe that God did it. For instance, God says, "I will blot out man, for I am sorry that I have made them...I have determined to make an end of all flesh...I will destroy them...Behold, I will bring a flood to destroy all flesh.......I will send rain...I will blot out....He [God] blotted out...I will never again curse the ground, neither will I ever again destroy every living creature as I have done..."

I just don't see any way those words can be changed to mean that Satan caused the flood. According to Ellen White, Satan was in fear for his own existence during the flood, which shows me that Satan could not have been the one causing it. At least I don't see how that argument can be made.

As far as Sodom and Gomorrah are concerned, if God did not destroy those wicked cities, why doesn't the Bible say that Satan did it? Why does the Bible say clearly, "Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven," the same language used in Rev. 20: 9? Are we to believe that Satan is the one who destroyed the cities of the plain and caused the flood? And are we to believe that Satan will destroy himself at the end, bringing fire down from God out of heaven? Ellen White speaks of Satan being the very last creature to finally perish, after a very long period of time burning.

Does God simply throw open the doors of the Holy City and invite all to come into His presence, and the righteous can thrive in God's presence whereas the wicked self-destruct in His presence simply because sin itself cannot exist before the "Consuming Fire"?

I know what many say these verses mean. The problem is that if we say the Bible doesn't mean what it obviously says, then there are many other things perhaps that the Bible says but does not mean. Lots of people are already making that argument, for instance, about the creation, about the Second Coming, about death, about Christ's resurrection, etc. Perhaps these also are just metaphorical uses of language that we have failed to interpret correctly?

[skyblue888]

And since the destruction of Jerusalem is an object lesson of the destruction of the world prior to the second coming of Christ, we read:

"When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which had been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from wicked one. Satan will plunge the inhabitants of the world into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old." The Great Controversy, p.614.

So we see that at that time the angels of God will cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion. The Lord will say to them, "No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience, for the cup of iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing His work." Review and Herald, Vol.4, p.335.

In Revelation the angels are portrayed as pouring out the vials of God's wrath upon the world. Once again, the language of the Bible is consistent.

Now compare this statement with these two which I have quoted in my last post regarding the destruction of Jerusalem.

"God withdrew His protection from them and removed His restraining power from Satan and his angels, and the nation was left to the control of the leader she had chosen." Then we read these words: "Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work." The Great Controversy,p.28,35.

Therefore, it is the everlasting truth that "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression. He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown... The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and malignity of Satan." G.C.36.

[skyblue888]

John, my dear brother, I hear you when you say that you have studied these things for years. So have I. This is why we must be very careful. "The question is, 'What is truth?' It is not how many years have I believed that makes it the truth." E.G. White, Faith and Works, p.77.

If we were to follow what you said (in your last post) to its logical conclusion, we would have no choice but to reject Mrs. White when she says that "It is not God that blinds the eyes of men or hardens their hearts" (D.A.322) because in the language of the Bible, it is written, "I will harden Pharaoh's heart... And He hardened Pharaoh's heart..." Exodus 7:3,13.

It is the same when we read, "And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." 2 Thess.2:11,12.

In the book The Great Controversy, p.451, Mrs White comments upon this passage and says: "As they reject the teachings of His word, God withdraws His Spirit and leaves them to the deceptions which they love."

So here are a few examples which teach us how we are to read the language of the Bible concerning God's ways. Isa.55:8,9.

[John317]

Given your view of how we are to read the language of the Bible concerning God's ways, how do you understand the destruction of the wicked as described in Rev. 20: 9?

Also, are you familiar with Jehovah's Witnesses interpretations of Revelation, particularly as they relate to the destruction of the wicked?

[John317]

Please tell me what there is in the following paragraphs that you find teaches that God does not destroy the wicked. What is your very best argument based on what the Bible and Ellen White say about these events?

Ellen White says about the Flood, "Satan himself, who was compelled to remain in the midst of the warring elements, feared for his own existence." PP 99

She also says that Satan "now uttered imprecations against God, charging Him with injustice and cruelty... Conscience [of those about to die] was at last aroused to know that there is a God who ruleth in the heavens. They called upon Him earnestly, but His ear was not open to their cry. In that terrible hour they saw that the transgression of God's law had caused their ruin...So when God's judgments shall fall upon the earth before its deluge by fire, the impentitent will know just where and what their sin is-- the despising of His holy law." PP 100

Concerning the death of the wicked at the Second Coming of Christ: "At the coming of Christ the wicked are blotted from the face of the whole earth-- consumed with the spirit of His mouth and destroyed by the brightenss of His glory." GC 657

In describing the death of the wicked at the very end, after the 1000 years, Ellen White wrote, "Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven...The earth surface seems one molten mass-- a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of unglody men--'the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion.' Is. 34: 8.

"The wicked receive their recompense in the earth...Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished 'according to their deeds.' ...After all have perished who fell by [satan's] deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames teh wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch-- Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah."

[skyblue888]

Given your view of how we are to read the language of the Bible concerning God's ways, how do you understand the destruction of the wicked as described in Rev. 20: 9? Also, are you familiar with Jehovah's Witnesses interpretations of Revelation, particularly as they relate to the destruction of the wicked?

First of all, John, it is not "my view" of anything, at least not a private one. So far I have not given any private interpretation and the answer to your question, as far as Revelation 20:9,10 is concerned, we need only to read from the book of Ezekiel, chapter 28, and from the book of Isaiah, chapter 14, to find the answer.

These chapters tell us exactly how Satan will suffer and finally be destroyed. Again the language of the Bible is consistent. In Ezekiel 28, the Lord, looking back, says, "By the abundance of your trading you became filled with violence within, and you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing out of the mountain of God; and I destroyed you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the fiery stones. Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, that they might gaze at you. You defiled your sanctuaries by the multitude of your iniquities, by the iniquity of your trading; therefore I brought fire from your midst; it devoured you, and I turned you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all who saw you. All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; you have become a horror, and shall be no more forever." Ezekiel 28:16-19.

It is in verses 6 to 10 that we find what these words mean.

"Therefore thus says the Lord God: Because you have set your heart as the heart of God, Behold, therefore, I will bring strangers against you, the most terrible of the nations; and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom, and defile your splendor. They shall throw you down in the Pit, and you shall die the death of the slain in the midst of the seas. Will you still say before him who slays you, 'I am God'? But you shall be a man, and not God, in the hand of him who slays you. You shall die the death of the uncircumcised by the hand of aliens; for I have spoken, says the Lord God."

The Bible is its own interpreter and so are the Testimonies of God's Spirit. "The Testimonies themselves will be the key that will explain the messages given, as Scripture explains Scripture." 1 S.M.42.

The verses we have just read are a clear explanation of Revelation 20:9,10. God will not lift the finger against Satan except that He will not interfere when the wicked of all ages, (among them the most terrible of the nations) shall turn against him and his evil angels to make them suffer for their being lost forever. They will then used him as their scapegoat. According to Isaiah 14:10, Satan and his angels will have to defend themselves with reduced strength. "They all shall speak and say to you: Have you also become as weak as we? Have you become like us?" Isaiah 14:10.

This is how God will destroy Satan and his evil angels. "Evil shall slay the wicked." Psalm 34:21. The more wicked or hardened we are, the more we cling to life and are ready to fight to stay alive. When Jesus was crucified, He offered no resistance whatsoever but it was not so with the two thieves who were crucified with him. They put up a fight before they were finally hung to the cross. This is what I read in The Desire of Ages. In the case of Satan and his evil angels, this cannot be more true and this is why they will suffer the longest when this great battle, as described in Ezekiel 28:6-10, takes place after the millenium before the earth is purified by fire.

sky

p.s. I am not faliliar with what the JW have to say about it.

[John317]

Quote:

First of all, John, it is not "my view" of anything, at least not a private one.

I just meant based on your understanding of these things we're discussing, how do you view the death or final destruction of the lost at the end? We have the descriptions of Ellen White in The Great Controversy and of course, as you say, we also have Ezekiel 28. Is there anything in all that material that causes you to beleive that God does not destroy the wicked?

Quote:

p.s. I am not faliliar with what the JW have to say about it.[/quote']

The "Jehovah's Witnesses" don't believe the fire in Revelation 20: 9 is literal. Nor do they believe God will actually live among the saved or that the saved will ever see God. Only the 144,000 spirit beings will get into heaven and be able to see God. The rest of humanity will never see the Father or Christ. They believe most people will be given a second chance during the 1000 years of Christ's rule on earth to accept His kingdom. If they do really bad sins at that time, then they will be put to sleep. They don't believe that Adam and Eve or even Solomon will be resurrected. They don't think that Jesus died for Adam and Eve because they sinned with their eyes opened. God will not really remake the earth but the righteous will work to make the earth all new and beatiful. It will take place gradually, just as it will be a gradual process for the righteous to get well from the effects of sin and sickness. Jehovah's Witnesses will be used to teach the people about the laws of God's kingdom.

[skyblue888]

quote=John317] Given your view of how we are to read the language of the Bible concerning God's ways, how do you understand the destruction of the wicked as described in Rev. 20: 9? Also, are you familiar with Jehovah's Witnesses interpretations of Revelation, particularly as they relate to the destruction of the wicked?

_______________________________

Quote:

"First of all, John, it is not "my view" of anything, at least not a private one."

_________________

I just meant based on your understanding of these things we're discussing, how do you view the death or final destruction of the lost at the end? We have the descriptions of Ellen White in The Great Controversy and of course, as you say, we also have Ezekiel 28. Is there anything in all that material that causes you to beleive that God does not destroy the wicked?

John317

****************************************************

John, the language of the Bible is that God destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by fire and brimstone, that He sent the flood, that He sent His armies (the Romans) to destroy Jerusalem in A.D.70, and that fire will come down from God out of heaven to devoure Satan and all of the wicked after the millenium.

I believe what the Bible says but I also believe that the Bible is its own interpreter. By comparing Revelation 20:9,10 with Ezekiel 28:16-19; 6-10, we are afforded a perfect example as to how we are to let the Bible interprets itself.

In The Great Controversy, the pen of inspiration uses the example of the destruction of Jerusalem. Mrs. White interprets the language of Matt.22:7 for us. Here we could not deal with stronger language. In the parable God is said to be "furious" with the Jews and He calls upon the Roman armies to destroy those murderers and to burn up their city. I would encourage everyone to carefully re-read pages 35 and 36 for a full commentary on this.

John, you referred us to Revelation 20:9. Verse 8 mentions Satan who is going to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, "God and Magog," to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea...

We understand that this verse is talking about the wicked of all ages who will be raised from their graves after the millenium and Satan will deceive them again by convincing them that they are able to take the City. Mrs. White was shown that they will be given time to prepare, to organize. And then in verse 9 we read about their surrounding the camp of the saints and the beloved City. Mrs. White was shown that it is at this point that Jesus will appear on the walls of the City with all the saints. Satan and all his armies are then suddenly arrested. Then it is said that all will see in panoramic view the whole plan of redemption, from the fall of Lucifer to that time and every one will understand why he/she are lost forever. All, including Satan and his angels, will bow before God acknowledging that all His ways are righteous.

However, "Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again burst forth. Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King of Heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. [color:#000066]Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them." The Great Controversy, p.671,672.

In the next paragraph, on page 672, Mrs. White quotes Ezekiel 28:6-8 and 16-19 in which verses God says, "I will bring strangers upon thee, the most terrible of the nations; and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the Pit... I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire... I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay you before kings, that they may behold thee... I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee...Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more."

In other words, God will not interfere with the wicked when they turn against Satan and His evil angels any more than He will interfere when the wicked shall turn against the ministers and leading men at the time of the sixth plague. See G.C.636,656.

The wicked will agree to put the blame upon Satan and his angels for their being lost forever and they will turn upon them. It is said that they will bring Satan down to the pit! Is this not the lake of fire?

So this will be the last struggle. Then Mrs. White quotes these verses: "Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies. He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest; this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin.

The language of the Bible is always consistent. This struggle of the ages will be of gigantic proportions and we can surmise as to the kind of weapons that will be used. Certainly this struggle will last a great number of days, months perhaps, and to be sure, fire will break out from the midst of them and in the end they will have destroyed each other completely. This is how they will perish in the lake of fire that they themselves will have kindled! And yes, the language of the Bible is that "fire will come down from God out of heaven."

"Evil shall slay the wicked." Psalm 34:21.

I believe it is in that sense that God will destroy them all!

John, Revelation 20:10 says that the devil and the beast and the false prophet will be cast into the lake of fire and that they will be "tormented day and night forever and ever."

You and I understand that they will not be literally tormented day and night for ever and ever! And yet this is what it says! The language could not be any stronger than that! We know, in the light of other passages of Scripture as Ezekiel 28:19 that when the fire has completely done its work, "they shall be no more." "They shall be as though they had never been." Obediah 16.

But we could, like many do, take this verse and teach that they will be tormented in the fires of hell forever and ever! But we don't do that because we know that the Bible is its own interpreter. Right?

So, I do believe that God will destroy Satan and his evil angels and all the unsaved and that they will perish in the flames of the lake of fire after the millenium just as I believe the Bible when it says that God sent the flood or that He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah by fire or Jerusalem by sending His armies but I also believe that we must let the Bible and the pen of inspiration tell us how because God's ways are not our ways! Isaiah 55:8,9.

The Bible says that "God hardened Pharaoh's heart." Exodus 7:3,13. But the inspired comment says that "It is not God that blinds the eyes of men or hardens their heart. He sends them light to correct their errors, and to lead them in safe paths; it is by the rejection of this light that the eyes are blinded and the heart hardened. Often the process is gradual, and almost imperceptible." D.A.32.

"By rejecting the first warning from God, Pharaoh of old sowed the seeds of obstinacy, and he reaped obstinacy. God did not compel him to disbelieve. The seed of unbelief which he sowed produced a harvest of its kind. Thus his resistance continued." C.O.L.84.

This is how God hardens men's hearts! Indeed, God's ways are higher than our ways! Isaiah 55:8,9.

p.s. Please take another look at Isaiah 28:16,17. These verses make Satan responsible for all the earthquakes, for making the world a wilderness and for destroying its cities! Satan is indeed the destroyer!

Should we not heed the words of Jesus, "Take heed how you read." :)

[skyblue888]

I am sure you are familiar with the verses where God says He will punish the wicked with the rod. "Then I will visit their transgression with the rod." Psalm 89:32. In Psalm 2:8,9 God says that He will punish, break, or rule the nations "with a rod of iron." In Lamentations 3:1 this rod is spoken of as "the rod of His wrath."

I have often wondered what this "rod" was, what "the rod of His wrath" was, haven't you? Then one day, I came across these words: "There is an unerring register kept of all sins committed. All man's impieties, all his disobedience of Heaven's commands, are written in the books of heaven with unerring accuracy. The figures of guilt rapidly accumulate, yet the judgments of God are tempered with mercy, until the figures have reached their appointed limit. God bears long with the transgression of human beings, and continues through His appointed agencies to present the gospel message, until the set time has come. God bears with divine patience with the perversity of the wicked; but He declares that He will visit their transgressions with a rod. HE WILL AT LAST PERMIT THE DESTRUCTIVE AGENCIES OF SATAN TO BEAR SWAY TO DESTROY.." E.G. White, Bible Commentary, Vol.4, p.1171. (emphasis mine)

Is not Mrs. White clearly saying here that the destructive agencies of Satan are, when permitted to bear sway to destroy, God's rod of iron or the rod of His wrath?

There are other passages of Scripture from the Old Testament which comfirm, indeed, that Satan is "the anger of the Lord," that he is "the wrath of God." The Bible is its own interpreter. By comparing 2 Samuel 24:1 with 1 Chronicles 21:1 we find that that is exactly what the Lord says Satan is, "the anger of the Lord." In Jeremiah 30:24 it is prophesied that in the last days the people of God would consider it, or understand it perfectly. In verse 23 and 24 Satan is not mentioned by name but in the light of 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1 we may know that Jeremiah is speaking of him as "the fierce anger of the Lord," or "the whirlwind of the Lord."

We know that there is coming a time when human probation will close. At that time "the restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent... The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble." The Great Controversy, p.614.

This is the time for the seven last plagues. It is the time when God says to His holy angels, "No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I wil no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work." The Review and Herald, Vol.4, p.335.

"So when Christ shall cease His intercession for guilty men, before His coming in the clouds of heaven, the door of mercy will be shut. Then divine grace will no longer restrain the wicked, and Satan will have full control of those who have rejected mercy. They will endeavor to destroy God's people; but as Noah was shut into the ark, so the righteous will be shielded by divine power." Patriarchs and Prophets, p.98.

Revelation 15:1 refers to that time as the time when the wrath of God will be complete: "Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete."

"From those who to the end continue in obstinate rebellion, He removes his protecting care. Providence will no longer shield them from Satan's power." Review and Herald, Vo.4, p.335.

At first, God's protecting care is in a measure removed from the sinner. It is progressively removed from the sinner until, impenitent, it is fully removed and then there is no more protection from the evil passions of the soul or from the malice and malignity of Satan.

So, when it is all said and done, it will be seen (though the language of the Bible, on the surface, seemed to imply that God Himself did the work of destroying the wicked) that "God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself." Christ's Object Lessons, p.84.

All will see, then, that this statement from The Great Controversy, p.36, was true, that "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves to reap that which they have sown... The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and malignity of Satan." The Great Controversy, p.36.

There is more evidence that God is not the executioner of the sentence against transgression. We will look at that evidence in future posts.

God bless!

sky

[ChildofChrist]

Just tagging on before finishing all the comments.

Quote:

But if God didn't bring a flood on the earth, then the language of the Bible appears to be deceptive and unreliable.

God is perfect, man is not. Things He speaks are truthful and man's ears and logic equipment is not.

God did bring the flood. Noah spoke with the people for 120 years while construction was underway. I'm sure that people of the whole inhabited world was there or came to see this odd event of old man Noah.

The people were given 120 years to make their decision. Go on the ark and be saved or stay off and perish. In their book, rain didn't exist!

(Think that should be a warning for us?)

By the way, God takes responsibility for every thing . But does that mean those 'Acts of God' is part of His divine will? That families are ripped apart, that murders are committed, genicide preveils, ...?

Just my 3 cents worth.

[skyblue888]

ChildofChrist, you said, "God takes responsibility for every thing."

Exactly. God said, "I will harden Pharaoh's heart." Yet, all He did was to send him light to correct his errors and to lead him in safe paths. "It was the rejection of that light that blinded his eyes and hardened his heart." D.A.322; C.O.L.84.

In the case of Saul, it is written that "God killed him and turned the kingdom over to David," when we know that "Saul took a sword and fell on it." Saul killed himself and God says that He killed him!

This language is consistent throughout the Bible. Another good example of the same is found in THE REBELLION OF ABSOLOM chapter of Patriarchs and Prophets, p.739. God had declared to David by the prophet that He would raise up evil against him out of his own house. 2 Sam.12:11. Now let us read the inspired commentary. "Thus was fulfilled the word of God to David by the prophet, 'Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house...' Not that God prompted these acts of wickedness, but because of David's sin He did not exercise His power to prevent them."

Can we find words more plain than these?

In the same chapter, on page 728, we read, "The Lord permitted events to take their natural course, and did not restrain Absolom. When parents or rulers neglect the duty of punishing iniquity, God Himself will take the case in hand. HIS RESTRAINING POWER IS IN A MEASURE REMOVED FROM THE AGENCIES OF EVIL, SO THAT A TRAIN OF CIRCUMSTANCES WILL ARISE WHICH WILL PUNISH SIN WITH SIN." (emphasis mine)

Here we are plainly told what the Lord means when He says that He will take things into His own hands. His restraining power is in a measure removed from the agencies of evil so that events take their natural course and sin is punished with sin!

When probation closes, His restraining power will be fully removed from the evil agencies and thus Satan will have entire control of the finally impenitent.

In my next post, we will look at what happened at the time of the flood. In the report of the flood, God has given us sufficient evidence in various parts of the bible to establish the scientific way in which the flood did come.

When it is seen what caused the flood and how it came, powerful confirmation will be given to the truth that God does not execute the sinner nor destroy the earth. Far from actually sending the flood in the way that we think He did, God held it back as long as He could. It finally came because He could no longer prevent it without forcing His presence where it was no longer desired.

[skyblue888]

Conditions before the flood were radically different from what they have been since. The key to that difference lies in the state of the sun and moon, the former having been seven times as hot as it now is and the latter having been equal to our present sun. This meant that eight times dotay's heat and light was being beamed upon the earth before the flood!

The Scriptural evidence is found in Isaiah 30:26.

"Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the Lord bindeth up the breach of His people, and healeth the stroke of their wound."

This is both a prophecy of the future and a description of the past. God is telling us what He will do at the time of the restoration of all things, the bringing back of that which was already there. If this involves increasing the sun to seven times its present intensity and the moon to equal the present sun, then this is how it was before.

It will be when He makes a new heaven and a new earth, that this restoration will be achieved. At that time, the sun and moon combined will be transmitting eight times the heat and light now being produced.

With these two orbs of fire jointly serving the new heavens and the new earth, a vastly changed condition of things will prevail from what they do now. This would appear so drastic as to cause many to think that the Scripture predicting this has to be understood only figuratively. The words are to be understood literally however, as the following statement verifies:

"All will be a happy, united family, clothed with the garments of praise and thanks-giving--the robe of Christ's righteousness. All nature in its surpassing loveliness will offer to God a constant tribute of praise and adoration. The world will be bathed in the light of Heaven. The years will move on in gladness. The light of the moon will be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun will be sevenfold greater than it is now. Over the scene the morning stars will sing together, and the sons of God will shout for joy, while God and Christ will unite in proclaiming, 'There shall be no more sin, neither shall there be any more death.' These visions of future glory, scenes pictured by the hand of God, should be dear to His children." Ministry of Healing, p.506.

TO BE CONTINUED

[skyblue888]

In the first creation, God, on the second day, lifted water from the earth's surface to the upper levels by His creative fiat. As the second creation will be an exact duplication of the first, this is how it will be done again, the only difference being that, whereas the human family did not exist when it was originally done, this time they will be interested spectators.

At the creation, God took a tremendous quantity of water and elevated it above the surface of the earth where it remained in a state of suspension. Some concept of the volume of water thus raised is given by the story of its return to earth to produce Noah's flood. "And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights." Genesis 7:12.

We do not know how deep the flood was in the early creation days. We are told that even after the Lord had elevated an enormous amount of water, that which remained had to be gathered in one place in order, even then, for the dry land to appear. This would be achieved by reshaping the earth's surface. Some parts must be heightened, others lowered. The water would then naturally gravitate to the lower areas thus forming seas.

"And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear."

This meant that a great deal of the land was higher than when the entire surface was flooded. Yet when, in Noah's day, the waters which had been placed high above the earth on the second day of creation, returned to the earth, it was so vast in quantity that it flooded the world again. From these evidences it is established that an enormous volume of water was lifted into suspension on that second day.

"And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day." Genesis 1:6-8.

Thus, in God's creative organization, He left some water upon the earth, but the remainder, He stationed high above and completely around the world. In between there was an atmospheric expanse. How high that mantle was we do not know.

God made reference to it in His conversation with Job when He said, "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it..." Job 38:4,9.

Thus a deep, protective, insulating mantle of water vapour cocooned the earth, just as clouds partially and periodically do today. The height and thickness of this was precisely calculated by the Creator to produce the perfect climate upon earth.

Having positioned the water vapour, the Lord then commissioned the sun and moon to hold it there, as well as to give light to the earth. "And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years. And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth; and it was so. And God made the two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night..." Genesis 1:14-18.

The sun and moon were not established in their appointed orbits to give only light to the earth. The Scripture clearly testifies that they were to "rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from darkness."

The purpose of giving light to the earth is easily understood, but more study needs to be given to the meaning of the phrase, "to rule over the day and over the night." "To rule," is to govern, to exercise a controlling influence of some nature or the other. In the light of Scripture evidences revealing the physical conditions existing at the time of creation, something of the nature of this rulership becomes apparent.

TO BE CONTINUED

[skyblue888]

So, an enormous amount of water had been elevated above the globe where it rode in suspension to form a complete mantle. To hold it there required a considerable supply of heat without which the pull of gravity would draw it down again. The sun and moon were placed in command of this situation. They were to rule over the moisture mantle, wrapped like swaddling clothes around the planet, preventing if from returning to the surface again and causing complete flooding. In order to have sufficient heat energy to accomplish this important task, the moon had to be as hot as the sun now is and the sun seven times moreso.

The arrangement was a masterpiece of balanced technology. The amount of heat produced from the two suns was calculated to keep just the correct volume of water vapour at the optimum altitude.

In effect, the earth was located within a giant green house, with the temperature inside being maintained at the best possible comfort level for man, aninmals, and plants. With no adjacent areas of great temperature differences thre was nothing to generate storms, low and high pressure systems or any form of violent weather.

The great, scientific minds of that day could prove mathematically that no rain was possible because of the continued generation of heat by the sun during the day and the moon by night. They also boldly declared, as scientists do today that the sun would continue its radiation of heat energy for millions of years yet. Like the Pharaoh as yet unborn, they had lost sight of the essential knowledge that the laws of nature are not self-acting but require the continued presence, control, and sustenance of God.

"The laws of nature are not self-acting. Nature in her work testifies of an intelligent presence and active Agency of a Being who is moving in all things according to His will." Ministry of Healing, p.416.

"The world before the flood reasoned that for centuries the laws of nature had been fixed. The recurring seasons had come in their order. Heretofore rain had never fallen; the earth had been watered by a mist or dew. The rivers had never yet passed their boundaries, but had borne their waters safely to the sea. Fixed decrees had kept the waters from overflowing their banks. But these reasoners did not recognize the hand of Him who had stayed the waters, saying, 'Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further.' Job 38:11.

"As time passed on, with no apparent change in nature, men whose hearts had at times trembled with fear, began to be reassured. They reasoned, as many reason now, that nature is above the God of nature, and that her laws are so firmly established that God Himself could not change them. Reasoning that if the message of Noah were correct, nature would be turned out of her course, they made that message, in the minds of the world, a delusion,--a great deception. They manisfested their contempt for the warning of God by doing just as they had done before the warning was given. They continued their festivities and their gluttonous feasts; they ate and drank, planted and builded, laying their plans in reference to advantages they hoped to gain in the future; and they went to greater lengths in wickedness, and in defiant disregard of God's requirements, to testify that they had no fear of the Infinite One. They asserted that if there were any truth in what Noah had said, the men of renown,--the wise, the prudent, the great men,--would understand the matter." Patriarchs and Prophets, p.96,97.

For the first time ever, rain fell, beginning its torrential and incessant downpour seven days after the closing of the door. Thus the change came suddenly. Up to a certain day, it had never rained. With the advent of that day, it rained, not gently and then increasingly, but in absolute deluge. The water literally dropped out of the sky.

But this change could not occur unless firstly, changes had taken place in the sun and moon. There is only one way in which rain can come. Suspended water vapour must cool down to condensation point. There was only one way for the water vapour in suspension above the earth to be chilled and that was for the moon and sun to begin to wane in heat production. This they did. The moon went out altogether and the sun faded to one seventh of its former brightness.

Suddenly, the vast volume of water vapour up there found itself deprived of seven-eighths of the heat it had been receiving. Rapidly the heat energy was exhausted in the work of keeping the vapour suspended. Chilling followed. Then came condensation. Practically all the water that had been taken from earth to sky by God's direct power on the second day of creation, was returned through natural causes those forty days and nights.

So great was the power of God that He could speak into position a volume of water which took forty days and nights to return by its own power. The result was that for the second time the earth became completely flooded with water. Not a trace of dry land showed anywhere.

The first appearance of rain in Noah's day is positive proof that it was then that the extinguishing of the moon and the dimming of the sun took place.

The dimming of the sun and the extinguishing of the moon were the direct scientific and natural causes of the flood. What caused the sun and moon to lose their powers is a question yet to be determined, but the answer will come as we proceed.

TO BE CONTINUED

[skyblue888]

In the Old Testament it is Isaiah who provides the information that there was a great change at the time of the flood. In the New Testament it is Peter. In fact the latter writer is even more specific in that he names the flood as the great point of change. "Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment nad perdition of ungodly men." 2 Peter 3:3-7.

In these words, Peter divides history into two periods--antediluvian and post-diluvian. In doing so he uses the expression, "the world that then was," to indicate the world as it was before the flood and which was destroyed by the flood. When referring to the world after that catastrophe, he speaks of "the heavens and the earth, which now are."

He does not speak only of the earth which is now, as being different from what it was before. He also includes the heavens in the change. The information contained in the other Scriptures makes it clear that the heavens which changed at the time of the flood were those governed by the sun and the moon of this solar system.

Before the flood, the sun was seven times brighter and the moon was as bright as the sun now is. The sun ruled the day and the moon the night. There was a wonderful mantle of protective vapour around the earth and the climate from pole to pole was of pleasant, even temperatures. It never rained but a gentle mist rose each morning to water the earth. Storms, tidal waves, earthquakes, blizzards, hurricanes, and hail storms were completely unknown. That was the heavens and the earth which then were.

But how different are the heavens and the earth which now are. The sun is dimmed to one seventh. The moon has gone out. The mantle of vapour is not there. Wide diversity of climate covers the earth. Fierce storms, terrible earthquakes, destructive blizzards, pulverizing hailstorms and a thousand other scourges blast the earth.

These are the great changes of which the wise men of today are ignorant, and willingly so. It is not that they do not believe in the flood, for many of them do, but the deluge is seen as if it were no more than the same disasters which occur today on a lesser scale. They see the heavens and the earth before the flood as being essentially the same as the heavens and the earth after the flood. There simply came the time when an abnormally wet season flooded the entire earth. When the flood ended, as all floods do, the earth gradually returned to the same situation as before. This is the thinking of those who do recognize the flood, but fail to acknowledge the real changes which took place there.

We see from a more thorough and careful study of the Scriptures that the changes were much more far-reaching than that. It is needful that their full extent be understood, together with the causes, namely, the dimming of the sun and the extinguishing of the moon.

When Noah emerged from the ark, God made a special promise and prophecy to him that there never would be a flood upon the earth again. That promise is repeated again in Isaiah. "Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the Lord shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of mourning shall be ended." Isaiah 60:20.

In what sense are these words to be understood?

TO BE CONTINUED