Aside genocide acts what else is God capable of?

[skyblue888]

Usually we refer to the sun or the moon "going down" when they appear to sink below the western horizon, but this is an erroneous expression, for neither the sun nor the moon go down in relation to the earth. They only appear to. The disappearance of these heavenly bodies behind the western mountains or plains, is caused by the rotation of the earth on its axis so that as the earth turns we are the ones who "go down"--not the sun and moon.

Because of its scientific inaccuracy this understanding of the expression, "go down," as used in the Scripture under consideration, must be highly suspect. That it is not the correct interpretation is made evident by certain facts revealed in the Word of God.

The first creation was perfect and the second will be a reproduction of it. There can be no differences between the second and the first because perfection cannot be improved, and modification being an admission that the first was imperfect and thus required improvement.

In the first creation, there was day and night occasioned by what we term the "going down" of the sun. If the promise of Isaiah 6:20 provided that the sun would never set in the western sky, then there would be no day and night as in the original, perfect creation. In fact, one side of the earth would ever see the sun while the other would see only the moon. So it is easily seen that this is not the meaning of Isaiah 60:20.

Some may point to the reference in Revelation 22:5. "And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun, for the Lord God giveth light: and they shall reign for ever and ever," and claim this teaches that there will not even be a sun in the new earth, for it will not be needed.

However, most will recognize that this Scripture is not describing conditions in the new earth generally but as they will be in the new Jerusalem. Even then it does not say there will be no sun, but only that there will be no need of it for there will be the greater light streaming from the presence of God. So far as the rest of the earth is concerned it will have, as promised in Isaiah 30:26, a blazing sun and a brilliant moon. The earth will still rotate on its axis and each evening the sun will appear to "go down" behind the western horizon as it does today.

Furthermore, why should the Lord make a special promise that the sun would never go down again behind the western horizon each evening, when such an event was no trouble or problem? It is a perfectly normal and desirable occurence, introducing the blessings of the night. Therefore, it this is all the Lord was offering in that Scripture, it could hardly be regarded as a precious promise.

The promise is made in respect to new earth dwellers who will again be enjoying perfect climatic conditions under the protective and insulating canopy supported by the sun and the moon as they will be then. They will know what happened when the sun went down in intensity and the moon withdrew itself in the days of Noah. To them, the promnise that this will not happen again is a very valuable and precious one for by this means they are assured that never again will their beautiful home be flooded to destruction.

The guarantee offered in this Scripture is not merely that it will never happen, but that it will happen "no more." "Thy sun shall no more go down..." Isaiah 60:20. If it is to happen no more, then it must have happened already. The only occasion it could have been, was when the dimming of the sun and the extinguishing of the moon brought the deluge. Therefore, this verse along with Isaiah 30:26 and 2 Peter 3:3-7, is directly referring to the great changes which occured in both the earth and the heavens when the light of the sun went down and the light of the moon withdrew itself. Consequently, the world "that then was," was very different from the "heavens and the earth, which are now."

The Biblical evidence gathered so far, confirm the scientific nature of the flood. The perfect arrangement of balanced heat supply and protective mantle producing a mild and equalized climate over the earth, was critically dependent on the uniform production of heat from the sun and the moon. When that failed, the flood was inevitable.

The question now remaining is why the sun came to be dimmed and the moon extinguished? This problem solved, there will remain no difficulties in connection with God's character as it was manifested in that catastrophe. If the dimming and the extinguishing of those two bodies was God's deliberate act performed at a moment dictated by Him, then God certainly was an executioner of the sentence against transgression. He did not leave the rejectors of His mercy to themselves to reap that which they had sown. He was a destroyer. Undeniably, He departed from His stated principles and resorted to measures foreign to Him and His kingdom.

This is, of course, the view generally adopted, together with its implications which, unfortunately, are rarely considered. If men did but contemplate the full import of what they believe, they would heartily reject many errors.

Strengthening the tendency to adopt this position, is the awareness that God had full power to extinguish the moon and to dim the sun, easily and instantly. There is no possibility, need, or intention of denying this. God is possessed of infinite power. Just as by commanding it was done, God placed those blazing orbs in the day and nightime sky, so He could as readily put them out again. There is no contention over God's ability to be the executioner. He possessed all the power necessary and much more besides. It required Him only to speak and it would be done, to command and it would be destroyed.

The controversy is over whether He, who was in possession of such power, would use it in this way. Those who have grasped the principles laid down in this thread, will understand that while God had the power to do it, He did not, because He is bound by immutable principles of righteousness not to use His might in that way. All such will praise the excellence of character which, equipped with infinite might while pressed under the severest provocation, does not retaliate. That is righteousness at its beautiful best.

TO BE CONTINUED

[skyblue888]

The key lies in the application of two principles. The first is that God will never force His presence where it is not desired, and the second is that every power in nature is directly and continually dependent on His presence and power to keep it on station fulfilling its appointed task. Therefore, in the era leading up to the deluge, the sun and the moon, which were critical factors in the coming of the flood, were dependent on the presence and power to keep them burning at exactly the correct heat level and stationed at the proper distance from the earth. "The only key to the mysteries that surround us is to acknowledge in them all the presence and power of God." The Desire of Ages, p.606.

Let the Lord remove His presence and power from the control and direction of those two orbs of fire, and the flood had to follow. Under Satan's determined and relentless influence, men increasingly desired total separation from God. They wanted nothing of His ways or principles. God, knowing the dreadful consequences of such a course, sent message after message pleading with them to correct their drift, but they steadily insisted on His departure. Because He will never force His presence where it is not wanted, He had no choice but to depart. In doing so, He gave them what they wanted, the control of the heavens and the earth. The moon, being nearer to the earth, was the first to feel the effect of God's departure. It went out entirely. The sun, much further away from men and much larger than the moon, took longer to diminish completely. Before it could do so, the wicked had perished and suddenly the situation was reversed. Whereas the majority had been against God, now the changed situation placed the majority on His side. They were only eight in number but still the majority.

These, of course, desired the Lord to fill His office and do His owrk of sustaining the powers of heaven and earth. Thus the returning Spirit of God was able to arrest any further decay in the sun and maintain it at the diminished level. It has remained that way ever since.

With the moon out and the sun at diminished output, there was neither the heat energy to return the water to its proper place nor the energy to maintain it there. Nor was it possible for the surviving remnant to live on a shoreless ocean. The water must be relocated to expose sufficient land to produce food for man and beast. This was accomplished by the violent upthrusts of land masses forming the great mountain chains and peaks found in the Himalayas, Andes, Alps, Rockies, and so on. Additionally, enormous quantities of water were held in cold storage at the poles.

It was not by God's direct decree that the moon was extinguished and the sun dimmed. God laboured unceasingly to save man from stepping so far out of the ways of righteousness as to compel His retirement from control. If His efforts had been successful, there never would have been a flood. It came, not because God sent it, but because He could not stop it. Those who believe that there are two sides to the character of God--the loving side and "His strange act,"--see the flood coming as a result of God's changing from the former to the latter. The real truth is that the flood proved inevitable. With Him, the use of force has ever been excluded. Therefore, to have prevented the flood once His final appeals had been rejected would have required Him to change to forcing His presence where it was emphatically not desired. This He could not do, thus leaving nothing to prevent the onset of disaster.

God's "strange act" is not to destroy but to repair the ruin that sin has made. "God's great and strange act is to redeem and save, and thus repair the ruin that sin has made." The Review and Herald, Vol.3, p.583.

[skyblue888]

John, you quoted: "At the coming of Christ the wicked are blotted from the face of the whole earth-- consumed with the spirit of His mouth and destroyed by the brightness of His glory." GC 657

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"And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His glory." 2 Thess.2:8.

This Scripture has been usually understood to portray the picture of Christ descending the advent skies, while before Him precede great flowing sheets of devouring flame which reach out to consume whoever of the impenitent have somehow managed to survive the plagues.

Such an interpretation of this Scripture, obvious as it may appear, is out of harmony with the character of God and Christ. If fire emanating from Him kills the wicked, then there is a direct, destructive work associated with His presence and Person. Therefore, He would be an executioner after all. But He is not, nor ever will be. "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression." Great Controversy, p.36. This is always true.

When He came the first time to this earth He testified that He had not come to destroy men's lives but to save them. The purpose of His advent does not change with His second coming. Once again, His intention is to deliver His people from an earth which has been so reduced by the final disasters as to be incapable of supporting life any longer. He has not come for the wicked. They have taken themselves out of the circle of His protection and their fate is entirely a matter of their own appointment.

There are statements which explain 2 Thess.2:8 and which harmonizes with this principle.

"Then shall they that obey not the gospel be consumed with the spirit of His mouth, and be destroyed by the brightness of His glory. Like Israel of old, the wicked destroy themselves; they fall by their iniquity. By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of His glory is to them a consuming fire." The Great Controversy, p.37.

That this statement is a direct explanation of the verse under study is clear from the fact that firstly the text is quoted, and then comment is made upon it. Therein, it is affirmed that the wicked destroy themselves. It is not the work of God but their own. They have sown the seed and they must reap the harvest.

Most significant, is the parallel between the way in which Israel perished and the destruction in the last days. As the one perished, so will the other. This is to indicate that the Israelites were likewise destroyed by the brightness of His coming or glory. This is true, for that is exactly how they did come to their end. It may be immediately objected that Jesus did not come with outshining glory at His first advent. Furthermore, He was far away in the distant heavens when the Jews met their fate, so there is no visible evidence of their having been consumed by the brightness of His glory.

Such an interpretation depends on the understanding of what the brightness of His glory is and how humans are consumed by it. Defining that expression is the key to solving the problem.

TO BE CONTINUED

[skyblue888]

The factor which above all others brought the Jews to their untimely end, was the manifestation of the brightness of God's character-glory in Christ. Before Christ came, the Jews were in a serious state of apostasy, but, even so, were not totally separated from God, for they had not taken the final steps in rebellion. But, as the light of Christ's glorious character shone on them, they were driven to desperate lengths of resistance until they were pushed to the extremes of apostasy. God did not intend that such be the result of this revelation, but once they determined on rejection of Him, it became the only possible outworking of that decision. They were destroyed, and it was by the brightness of His coming!

The sequence then was as follows:

The Jews were in a state of apostasy.

Christ shone on them the brighteness of His glory, the glory of His character.

They rejected this influence and thus separated themselves from God's protection.

The actual destruction was accomplished by the unleashed natural forces.

In the sacred writings, both of these forces are described. There we can read of Christ's coming, of the Jew's reaction, and of the separation of the Spirit of God from them. Then we can read of the destructive work accomplished by the outrage of human passion no longer under divine restraint.

In exactly the same way, there is recorded the indentical procedure which leads to the destruction of the wicked in the final overthrow of mankind.

They will be in a state of deep apostasy.

The brightness of His character-glory will be revealed to them in the loud cry. "The revelation of His own glory in the form of humanity will bring Heaven so near to men that the beauty adorning the inner temple will be seen in every soul in whom the Saviour dwells." C.O.L.420. Their rejection of this influence will drive them to separate themselves from God's protection. The actual destruction to befall them will be accomplished by the unleashing of the wild passions within them and by the unrestrained forces of nature.

Basically then, it is the coming of the brightness of His character-glory which destroys them but not in the sense that they are struck down by it. That is left to the unrestrained forces in man and nature, the destruction from which the brightness of His glory would have saved them from if they had related to it correctly.

When the fall of the wicked is described in The Great Controversy, it shows that they are to be obliterated by the furious outburst of their own fierce passions and by the outpouring of the seven last plagues. There immediately follows the statement that they will be consumed by the spirit of His mouth and destroyed by the brightness of His glory. Here is exactly how it sppears on page 657:

TO BE CONTINUED

[skyblue888]

"... 'And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold everyone on the hand of his neighbor, and his hand shall rise up against the land of his neighbor.' In the mad strife of their own passions, and by the awful outpouring of God's unmingled wrath, fall the wicked inhabitants of the earth,--priests, rulers, and people, rich and poor, high and low. 'And the slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried.' At the coming of Christ the wicked are blotted from the face of the whole earth,--consumed by the spirit of His mouth, and destroyed by the brightness of His glory. Christ takes His people to the city of God, and the earth is emptied of its inhabitants."

The immediate and seemingly obvious means of their destruction will be the terrible onslaught of maddened man and nature. But the deeper, underlying cause is not to be overlooked. Prior to the coming of the physical calamities, divine love will have sent the revelation of Christ's character-glory in full and final display. Their rejection of those saving provisions will place them where destruction is free to descend upon them.

Those who do not understand this but believe that the death of the wicked will be directly and physically accomplished by the flaming fire emanating from the person of Christ, would need to have the statement differently written. For them it should appear as follows:

"In the mad strife of their own fierce passions, and by the outpouring of God's unmingled wrath, fall" the larger proportion of "the wicked inhabitants of the earth..." "At the coming of Christ" the remainder of "the wicked are blotted from the face of the whole earth by the brightness of His glory."

But it is not written that way. To be slain by the brightness of His glory is to perish under the seven last plagues and the fierce battles they will fight.

Exactly as the Jews who perished by the physical instrument of the Roman armies, were destroyed by the brightness of His coming as already noted in this thread, so the plagues will come upon the wicked in the same way. The brightness of Christ's coming begins to shine long before He actually appears in the clouds of heaven. As the message of the loud cry goes forward, "men will be captivated by the glory of an abiding Christ." C.O.L.420. Very few will respond to this powerful drawing love. The balance will resist it with all the determination they can muster. This will separate them from God to the point where He will be forced to leave them entirely. Then "Satan will have entire control of the finally impenitent... Satan will plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let lose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old." G.C.614.

This is how the rejectors of God's mercy will be consumed by the spirit of His mouth and by the brightenss of His character glory!

A further evidence to support the fact that it is not the fire from the Person of Christ which destroys the wicked, is the final confrontation around the city of God. There the wicked come quite close to the presence of Christ but they are able to march against the city in which is the presence of God and of Christ. They are able to stand there in their mortal state when Jesus appears on the wall of the city and they are able to see all that God wants them to see without being consumed with physical fire from the brightness of His glory.

Therefore, if the fire surrounding Christ does not consume them at the end of the thousand years, why should it do so at His second coming, unless Christ personally decided that it should? If He did, then of course He would become a direct destroyer which, for Him, is impossible.

p.s. This does not mean that a human being can come directly into the power circle surrounding the Person of God and survive without special protection. At the second coming or at the end of the thousand years, the wicked do not come within that power circle and therefore are not directly consumed. We know that they will annihilate each other.

[melvin mccarty]

Well Sky if you are able to convince yourself that the devil has power to play with the sun and moon I wouldn't want to try to change your mind! I just hope you are wrong.

mel

[skyblue888]

Well Sky if you are able to convince yourself that the devil has power to play with the sun and moon I wouldn't want to try to change your mind! I just hope you are wrong.

mel

I don't think you took the time to read my posts because if you had, you would have seen that I have never said such a thing. I showed that God was forced to remove His presence and power from the moon and from the sun. This is how the moon lost its light and how the sun was dimmed and this is what caused the flood.

"The only key to the mysteries that surround us is to acknowledge in them all the presence and power of God." D.A.606.

sky

[John317]

...The wicked will agree to put the blame upon Satan and his angels for their being lost forever and they will turn upon them. It is said that they will bring Satan down to the pit! Is this not the lake of fire?

So this will be the last struggle. Then Mrs. White quotes these verses: "Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies. He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest; this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin.

The language of the Bible is always consistent. This struggle of the ages will be of gigantic proportions and we can surmise as to the kind of weapons that will be used. Certainly this struggle will last a great number of days, months perhaps, and to be sure, fire will break out from the midst of them and in the end they will have destroyed each other completely. This is how they will perish in the lake of fire that they themselves will have kindled! And yes, the language of the Bible is that "fire will come down from God out of heaven."

"Evil shall slay the wicked." Psalm 34:21.

I believe it is in that sense that God will destroy them all!

What is your understanding of GC 673?

""Some [of the wicked] are destroyed as in a moment, while other suffer many days. All are punished 'according to their deeds.' The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit....After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on...The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met..."

It seems clear to me that the amount of punishment or suffering each of the lost suffers is decided by Christ and the saints who judge the wicked during the 1000 years in heaven. It is based on the sins of the wicked and their responsibilites and the knowledge of the truth they rejected. It is no arbitrary decision but is in accordance with "the full penalty of the law" of God and "the demands of justice."

What do you think?

[LifeHiscost]

Recalling threads on Gods capability of committing acts seemingly questionable such as the instruction of genocide acts, sparing non, including women, children and civilians. Raphael

If you mean by genocide that God chooses to eliminate from His universe those who set themselves up against the principles that make love the foundation of life, and that He is capable of seeing all circumstances in the future were there rebellious life left to exist in continuous combat against those who willingly choose not to accept that rebellion. I see nothing illogical regarding the love of God, especially His love toward the ones whose lives will not have to continue with the fear, pain, suffering, frustration, and mental heartache for eternity, that accompanies behavior that acts in opposition to the principles of love.

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." Revelation 21:4 KJV

Regards!!

[LifeHiscost]

What is your understanding of GC 673?

""Some [of the wicked] are destroyed as in a moment, while other suffer many days. All are punished 'according to their deeds.' The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit....After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on...The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met..."

It seems clear to me that the amount of punishment or suffering each of the lost suffers is decided by Christ and the saints who judge the wicked during the 1000 years in heaven. It is based on the sins of the wicked and their responsibilites and the knowledge of the truth they rejected. It is no arbitrary decision but is in accordance with "the full penalty of the law" of God and "the demands of justice."

What do you think?

Punishment for the sake of punishment alone is illogical and beneath the character of God's love for His created beings. Re:

those whose time is lengthened during their punishment, some of that could be a result of the wicked's misuse of the power they initially were given by the God of heaven, to maintain their existence as long as they can while still in opposition to the principles of Love.

"He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he." Deuteronomy 32:4 KJV

Regards!!