Gods evil spirit?

[Amelia]

Quote:

NIV

1 Samuel 16

14 Now the Spirit of the LORD had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him.

NKJ

1 Sam 16

14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a distressing spirit from the LORD troubled him.

NAS

1Sam16

14(U)Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and (V)an evil spirit from the LORD terrorized him.

Message

1Sam16

14 At that very moment the Spirit of God left Saul and in its place a black mood sent by God settled on him. He was terrified.

God has evil spirits?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

What I find interesting is that harp music dispelled the *evil spirit from God."

I Sam. 16:23 When the evil spirit from God troubled Saul, David would take his harp and play. Then the evil spirit would leave him, and Saul would feel better.

[cricket]

Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Always a fascinating subject, IMO.

[olger]

God is not the Author of evil, is He? He is often represented as "causing" that which He did not prevent.

olger

[WayneV]

Either God is the author of EVERYTHING or He is not God.

[olger]

God is the Creator of everything yes, but evil did not originate with Him. The celebration of self originated in a perfect angel who became self-centered instead of God-centered.

press forward,

olger

[David Koot]

Either God is the author of EVERYTHING or He is not God.

That does not necessarily follow.

[Amelia]

Why would this verse be written this way if God did not send an evil. distressing, bad mood spirit to Saul?

[WayneV]

Either God is omnipotent, or He is not God. It does follow. If God created EVERYTHING, then He created EVERYTHING!

[David Koot]

Either God is omnipotent, or He is not God.

Omnipotent is a quality--capable of exercising unlimited power. However, God does not in fact exercise unlimited power. There are a lot of things God does NOT do, that He could do.

Dave

[olger]

Regarding the Endor experience of Saul:

This whole fascinating story highlights the tragic fall of Saul from grace as a consequence of his choices.

"But the spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him (1 Samuel 16:14). Thus begins the final saga in the life of Saul. It is a downward spiral. What caused this fall from grace?

Rebellion. "For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king."

It is also noteworthy that God is sometimes represented as causing that which He does not prevent in the OT. The evil spirit mentioned here came from the devil, not from God.

Saul's unresolved rebellion gave ground to the enemy in his heart, and he began to be mastered by an evil spirit. Notice that this "evil spirit" tried to get Saul to pin David to the wall with his spear. Was that God's spirit? Not at all...!

This drove the Lord farther from Saul, until finally the lines of communication were cut "And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets." Had Saul repented in his heart, the Lord would have answered him and redeemed him (remember Manasseh?). But Saul didn't, and he took the last step - consulting a witch.

Did this witch call up God's sleeping prophet? Never. God would not allow His sleeping servant to be disturbed by a method that He had already condemned (Lev. 20:27; Deut. 18:11).

The apparition that "came up" was a demon masquerading as Samuel. First off, he "comes up" according to the text. The immortal soul camp claims that the righteous go to heaven at the point of death. Why was this "thing" coming up?

Also the (hag) "perceived" that it was Samuel. It doesn't say that it was Samuel in the text, it says that Saul perceived that it was him. This is classic deception, and the primary reason that our Father takes a zero-tolerance policy towards the occult. It is a method of Satan to deceive people.

Also notice that the "apparition" did not reject the misplaced worship of Saul (1 Samuel 28:14).

"Tomorrow you will be with me" (v. 19). If it was Samuel, how could he say to Saul "you will be with me." I propose that they each had two different destinies according to their choices.

It wasn't Samuel. So, who was it?

This tragic story is summed up in 1 Chronicles 10:13 "Saul died because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance, and did not inquire of the LORD.."

The Bible says that the rebellious live (dwell) in a dry land (Psalm 68:6). Nothing good grows in a dry land. Just the occasional weed. Saul's life is a tragic example of his choices and the consequences that accompany our choices.

[LifeHiscost]

Either God is the author of EVERYTHING or He is not God.

Your conclusion is adequately born out in the Word, Wayne. Even the nasty thought of evil.

I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things. " "Isaiah 45:7 ASV

"Let every soul to the higher authorities be subject, for there is no authority except from God, and the authorities existing are appointed by God" Romans 13:1

YLT

While this may cause some consternation in the eyes of those who equate moral goodness only can emanate from our Father, it does not cause one to fear who trusts that God is love, without equivocation.

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." Hebrews 13:8 NASB

The fact that we, we who cannot understand ourselves completely, can hardly be asked to explain all there is to know in the logic of God. Much of fallen humanity's understanding needs to be couched in the mystery of godliness and the mystery of iniquity.

"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work" 2 Thessalonians 2:7 KJV

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." 1 Timothy 3:16

KJV

It is enough to know that Jesus took all the pain caused by human beings (who bring much of it, if not all, upon themselves)

upon Himself, as evidenced in the cross.

""For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.

No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father." John 10:17,18

Regards!!

[skyblue888]

We also read that "God slew Saul." 1 Chro.10:14. Yet in verse 4 we read that "Saul took a sword and fell on it." Saul killed himself and yet the Bible says that God slew him! Olger is right. God takes responsibility for what He does not prevent but He is not the executioner of the sentence against transgression. See G.C.36.

When the Bible says that God sent an evil spirit to Saul, it must be taken to mean that He did not prevent it.

The language of the Bible is consistent. Another example of this is when the Lord said to David, "I will raise evil against you out of your own house." In the book Patriarchs and Prophets, Mrs. White quotes these very words and says, "Thus was fulfilled the word of God to David by the prophet, 'Behold, I will raise evil against thee out of thine own house....'" Immediately after follows this commentary: "Not that God prompted these acts of wickedness, but because of David's sin He did not exercise His power to prevent them." P.P.739. On page 728, she says, "The Lord permitted events to take their natural course, and did not restrain Absalom."

sky

[David Koot]

I just now decided to take a look at this question. IN checking it out, I found that the word 'from' is not in the original, in v. 15. In v. 14, the word combination is different than the typical 'sent from.' It is not merely 'min' but het min. Looking at the usage pattern, it appears that a reading more along the lines of 'away from' could be appropriate. That is, in the sense of the opposite.

Dave

[Beryl]

To say that God created evil is to say that He IS evil -- and that is JUST WHAT THE DEVIL WANTS YOU TO BELIEVE!!

[Clio]

Either God is omnipotent, or He is not God. It does follow. If God created EVERYTHING, then He created EVERYTHING!

Abba did create everything but He is not the originator of evil.

Follow:

Abba created all the angels in heaven. Lucifer being one of them.

All created beings have free will because Abba desires friends, companions, and freely given service from a heart of Love.

Lucifer's heart turned away from serving his Creator and turned to rebellion instead. His rebellion, which was the result of free will with which he was created, resulted in the introduction of sin.

This was due to the natural consequences to violating Abba's rule. Death in all it's forms is the result. We call it evil, but it simply is the consequences of the abrogation of Abba's Laws.

Eventually those circumstances will end, and with their end will also come the end of the consequences of breaking the Laws established to order all of creation. We call it the destruction of evil.

[LifeHiscost]

To say that God created evil is to say that He IS evil -- and that is JUST WHAT THE DEVIL WANTS YOU TO BELIEVE!!

While my logic finds it easy to agree with you, Beryl, could you please give your explanation of why this Word does not mean what it says, especially since it comes from the mouth of God? And if you have explanation why it doesn't mean what it says, how much of the Word can we tell new believers is not true and still give them assurance God always means what He says?

"that they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none besides me: I am Jehovah, and there is none else.

I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things."

Isaiah 45:6,7 ASV

"so all the world from east to west

will know there is no other God.

I am the Lord, and there is no other.

I create the light and make the darkness.

I send good times and bad times.

I, the Lord, am the one who does these things."

Isaiah 45:6,7 NLT

"So that they know from the rising of the sun, And from the west, that there is none besides Me, I [am] Jehovah, and there is none else,

Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things.'" Isaiah45:6,7 YLT parenthesis theirs LHC

"that they may know from the rising of the sun and from the west that there is none besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I, the LORD, do all these things." Isa 45:6,7 KJ21

"That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. " Isa 45:6,7 KJV

Regards!!

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

Either God is the author of EVERYTHING or He is not God.

Take a look at the Lord's prayer: Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

God's will is not being done on earth but Satan's will is. God is permitting this, but God's will is not being done as Christ has referrenced. Therefore God is not the Author of everything going on here on earth.

I just remembered these verses Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me. Jesus is telling His Disciples about the coming works of Satan

In this vere we see the results of Satan being exposed at the cross. Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Norman

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Either God is the author of EVERYTHING or He is not God.

Take a look at the Lord's prayer: Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

God's will is not being done on earth but Satan's will is. God is permitting this, but God's will is not being done as Christ has referrenced. Therefore God is not the Author of everything going on here on earth.

I just remembered these verses Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me. Jesus is telling His Disciples about the coming works of Satan

In this vere we see the results of Satan being exposed at the cross. Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Norman

I'm not sure there is in the human mind an ability to accept the fact that God is not only sovereign, but He also holds ultimate authority. Take the experience of the testing of Job's opinion of himself in the beginning of the book as opposed to the conclusion he arrived at in the end.

"There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job; and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil.

Then Satan answered the LORD, "Does Job fear God for nothing?

Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.

"But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face."

Then the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him." So Satan departed from the presence of the LORD."

Return, I pray you, let there be no injustice; Yea, return again, my cause is righteous. Is there injustice on my tongue? Job 1;6; NASB

"I had heard of thee by the hearing of the ear; But now mine eye seeth thee:

Wherefore I abhor myself , And repent in dust and ashes." Job 42 NASB

While it is true that satan performed all the destructive acts against Job, it is also true that he was restricted to just that which God allowed him to do.

"And Jehovah said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thy hand." Job 1 ASV

Now if you had a three year old son you loved dearly, told him not to cross the street for safety's sake, and then let the fences and doors open to allow whoever wished to cross them, free access, who do you think the law enforcement agencies would hold responsible if your son was hit by an automobile while crossing the street.

Obviously the driver might be charged if found criminally negligent in speed or something similar, however the primary responsibility would be seen as the parents negligence.

The difference between our Father is that He takes responsibility for all the damage done in His universe, even though His hand was not set to do evil. OTOH man spends most of his time figuring out how to absolve him/herself of any responsibility when evil occurs.

And IMO if we believe that God does not take full responsibility for all evil, we have little understanding of the crucifixion.

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." Romans 8:28 KJV

Regards!!

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

Now if you had a three year old son you loved dearly, told him not to cross the street for safety's sake, and then let the fences and doors open to allow whoever wished to cross them, free access, who do you think the law enforcement agencies would hold responsible if your son was hit by an automobile while crossing the street.

Obviously the driver might be charged if found criminally negligent in speed or something similar, however the primary responsibility would be seen as the parents negligence.

The difference between our Father is that He takes responsibility for all the damage done in His universe, even though His hand was not set to do evil. OTOH man spends most of his time figuring out how to absolve him/herself of any responsibility when evil occurs.

And IMO if we believe that God does not take full responsibility for all evil, we have little understanding of the crucifixion.

Life, Jesus words mean nothing? He said "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." What does that mean? You can't just read Jesus words and come up with human reasoning and make of none effect His words, that is wrong. What He said is not up for discussion or interpretation, it is a solid fact to build truth on.

I will respond to you post in this way. Christ's sacrifice is part of the solution. In order to understand who is responsible for all the evil we must look at the sanctuary, specifically the day of atonement.

Hear what the Psalmist has to say; Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches. Verily I have cleansed my heart in vain, and washed my hands in innocency. For all the day long have I been plagued, and chastened every morning. If I say, I will speak thus; behold, I should offend against the generation of thy children. When I thought to know this, it was too painful for me; Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end. Psa 73:12-17

In the end all of the evil that has been committed will be placed on Satan. Follow carefully And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat. Lev 16:7-8 Then Aaron must throw lots for the two goats. One lot will be for the LORD and the other for Azazel. Lev 16:8 GW

Note the 2 goats, one for the Lord as a sin offering and the other take away the sin. Not to bear it or pay for the sin but to bear responsibility. See the GNB Lev 16:10 The goat chosen for Azazel shall be presented alive to the LORD and sent off into the desert to Azazel, in order to take away the sins of the people.

The goat for the Lord was sacrificed but the other goat was sent away by a fit man into the wilderness. This is what will happen to Satan during the 1000 years of desolation on earth.

The Great Controversy page 420, What is the Sanctuary?

Important truths concerning the atonement are taught by the typical service. A substitute was accepted in the sinner's stead; but the sin was not canceled by the blood of the victim. A means was thus provided by which it was transferred to the sanctuary. By the offering of blood, the sinner acknowledged the authority of the law, confessed his guilt in transgression, and expressed his desire for pardon through faith in a Redeemer to come; but he was not yet entirely released from the condemnation of the law. On the day of atonement the high priest, having taken an offering from the congregation, went into the most holy place with the blood of this offering, and sprinkled it upon the mercy-seat, directly over the law, to make satisfaction for its claims. Then, in his character of mediator, he took the sins upon himself, and bore them from the sanctuary. Placing his hands upon the head of the scape-goat, he confessed over him all these sins, thus in figure transferring them from himself to the goat. The goat then bore them away, and they were regarded as forever separated from the people.

When the ministration in the holy of holies had been completed, and the sins of Israel had been removed from the sanctuary by virtue of the blood of the sin-offering, then the scape-goat was presented alive before the Lord; and in presence of the congregation of high priest confessed over him "all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat." [Leviticus 16:21.] In like manner, when the work of atonement in the heavenly sanctuary has been completed, then in the presence of God and heavenly angels, and the host of the redeemed, the sins of God's people will be placed upon Satan; he will be declared guilty of all the evil which he has caused them to commit. And as the scape-goat was sent away into a land not inhabited, so Satan will be banished to the desolate earth, an uninhabited and dreary wilderness. GC 658

Here is God speaking to Satan in Isaiah 14 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? 16,17

God is not the author of confusion and evil is nothing but confusion. God's will is not being done on earth as it is in heaven therefore God is not the author if evil. God is big enough to let Satan rein this earth (For that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. Luke 4:6)

to show how he would rule the universe, seeing he wants to be like the most high. In the end all will see Satan's way and Satan's rule of the earth and agree with God, he must be destroyed or he will destroy everything.

If God is the author of evil, then how can He then justly destroy Satan? Satan can cry out, "you were doing your own will and now you want to destroy me?" No, this is not to be. When this is all over, every one will have no doubt as to where this evil came from. Sin will never rise up again because it will be proven by God beyond a shadow of a doubt that evil and sin originated with Satan.

[LifeHiscost]

Sin will never rise up again because it will be proven by God beyond a shadow of a doubt that evil and sin originated with Satan.

"He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he." Deuteronomy 32:4 KJV

The Bible is clear that there is no fault with our Lord. While you have made a good case for His innocence of wrongdoing, you have not presented logic consistent with the Scriptures in which out of His own mouth He said He created evil (or calamity). Do you dispute the Scriptures that identify His own acknowledgement?

If we use Scripture to prove the fallacy of other Scripture we will come to an incorrect knowledge of God. For those Scriptures that shed light on God's sovereignty, my post of yesterday to Beryl, if you haven't already read it, indicating my understanding of our Father's sovereign authority still stands. I'm not asking you to accept God's statement. If you see something you cannot accept, this is between you and God.

satan was never out of God's supreme control, as a matter of free will He offers all of those created in His image. Though satan would like us to believe there is something he himself originated, proving that he is a god of just another lifestyle, if only the God of heaven and earth would let him alone, when it is at last seen that his own choices are what brings death and destruction, then will come to pass this Word by the Almighty.

"But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written:

“ As I live, says the LORD,

Every knee shall bow to Me,

And every tongue shall confess to God.”"

Romans 14:10-12 NKJV

"I have sworn by Myself,

The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness

And will not turn back,

That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance." Isaiah 45:23 NASB

Regards!!

[olger]

Quote:

Sin will never rise up again because it will be proven by God beyond a shadow of a doubt that evil and sin originated with Satan.

I like this statement.

olger

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Sin will never rise up again because it will be proven by God beyond a shadow of a doubt that evil and sin originated with Satan.

I like this statement.

olger

I'm sure I'm not familiar with all the needs of God's creation. It seems to me God's friends don't need God to prove Himself and His enemies will not believe Him no matter how much proof is given. If there were only a need of proof that He is Who He says He is to make them change their allegiance, then why does the proof necessary to get them to bow the knee come only when it is too late to make any difference?

"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." 2 Thessalonians 2:7 KJV

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory." 1 Tim 3:16 NKJV

Regards!!

[WayneV]

Quote:

Either God is the author of EVERYTHING or He is not God.

Take a look at the Lord's prayer: Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

God's will is not being done on earth...

Norman

What makes you so sure that God's will is not being done on earth? I rather believe that it is. My God is a God of Power, Wisdom, Knowledge, Time, Space, etc. And, just like the crucifixion, while we may not understand it right now, it is God's will.

Have Faith!

[Amelia]

OK, so after all this; what I'm hearing is... Everyone at that time thought all spirits, good and evil, came from God. And that is why the verse is written the way it is?