Doctors of death! Why?

[Woody]

The "World Church" in the "General Conference" ... has already put women in "leadership positions over men". One of the vice presidents of the GC is a woman. It don't get much higher than that in leadership over men.

But ... we really should not hijack this thread over women. Back to the 45 doctors of death.

[John317]

Seven are believed to be doctors or medical students, while one formerly worked as a laboratory technician.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6265500.stm

What would make doctors want to set off bombs?

As for the last question, the answer to that clearly is hatred and a desire to do maximum harm to the West and the "Great Satan." Why? It would require a fairly complex answer to explain every facet, but essentially it is that Islamists eventually want to impose "Allah's will", or Islamic law, on everyone. They are firmly convinced that Allah favors what they are doing. If their view of Allah changed so that they understood that He is not pleased with their blowing up babies and women and anyone else who happens to be within range of their bomb, they would no doubt change their tactics to that of persuasion and showing love. But as I read the Koran, that is not likely to happen because the Koran encourages them to attack and destroy those who oppose Allah.

The Hebrew Scriptures do, too, of course, but only under certain historical conditions, i.e., theocracy, when God was ruling directly and was in the process of establishing Israel in the land of violent and wicked people who had refused for 400 years to repent. That is totally different from the New Testament, which reveals God's ideal.

[John317]

The "World Church" in the "General Conference" ... has already put women in "leadership positions over men". One of the vice presidents of the GC is a woman. It don't get much higher than that in leadership over men.

But ... we really should not hijack this thread over women. Back to the 45 doctors of death.

Yes, true, but I am talking about the world church in general conference making women full pastors in all of the conferences throughout the world.

No "hijacking" here. I was responding to your own and others' comments about women pastors.

About the doctors of death, it means the extremists are making it more difficult to know who is a terrorist and who is not, because before this happened, few would never have imagined that physicians would be involved in the murder of masses of people. It was obviously planned for that very reason.

Is it not likely that we have similar Muslim sleeper cells in this country consisting of doctors and others who would probably be the last to be suspected of such intentions?

[Woody]

OH ... No hijacking. OK. Well .... the GC has obviously decided on the issue of having women in leadership over men since they have a woman VP. But as far as doing it world wide ... that would not be wise. The issue of women over men is not really a scriptural issue as it is a cultural issue. And so it would not be good to impose it on cultures that do not believe in it.

[John317]

OH ... No hijacking. OK. Well .... the GC has obviously decided on the issue of having women in leadership over men since they have a woman VP. But as far as doing it world wide ... that would not be wise. The issue of women over men is not really a scriptural issue as it is a cultural issue. And so it would not be good to impose it on cultures that do not believe in it.

Agreed. But some time, on another thread devoted to the subject, it might be interesting to look into the question of whether the NT views the issue as one of culture.

I agree, however, that no matter what, the church must have consensus before it moves in the direction of women pastors in all the conferences.

[Woody]

I think we have beat this horse dead many times here on CA.

Now ... back to the regularly scheduled broadcast of the 45 death doctors. Not the 45 dead horses.

[John317]

I think we have beat this horse dead many times here on CA.

Now ... back to the regularly scheduled broadcast of the 45 death doctors. Not the 45 dead horses.

It will no doubt be tempting for some to say that these doctors did what they did as a result of America being in Iraq. But we have to keep in mind that 9//11 happened before we were in Iraq. In fact, Muslim terrorists were hijacking planes and boats and blowing themselves up long before Reagan's administration.

The Western govenments are loath to admit it, but in my opinion, the world of Islam is really at war with the West, i.e, Europe and North America.

[lazarus]

Yes, true, but I am talking about the world church in general conference making women full pastors in all of the conferences throughout the world.

I think the only real issue left concerning women pastors is the use of the term ordination. Women are already being ordained and practicing as "full" pastors in many parts of the world. Slight of hand (in fact tongue) is being perpetrated on SDA's right now. Its sad that as a church we have to be so political in order to keep the body together.

[Woody]

I know of NO spiritual gift that is gender specific. Women are even doctors. And some are doctors of death. No descrimination there.

[Amelia]

Muslim doctors here condemn UK attacks

By Kim Bell

ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH

Saturday, Jul. 07 2007

WEST ST. LOUIS COUNTY — Trying to avoid a backlash here, a group of Muslim

physicians who call St. Louis home felt compelled Friday to condemn the

terrorist actions in Britain said to involve doctors and medical students.

Police overseas are questioning eight people — all thought to be Muslim

foreigners who worked for Britain's National Health Service — in connection

with foiled car bombs in London and an attack at Glasgow airport in Scotland.

In Britain Friday, an Iraqi-born doctor was charged in the Glasgow attack.

Muslim doctors here say they are trying to be more vocal in denouncing

terrorism. They condemned the "crazies" who are "misguided" and did those acts.

"If we keep quiet, we become kind of a silent supporter of that, although we

are not," said Dr. Ghazala Hayat, a professor of neurology at St. Louis

University. "This is actually sickening and shocking to doctors, that this

would happen."

British media reported Wednesday that a cryptic warning was made months ago to

a British cleric by an al-Qaeda chief — "Those who cure you will kill you."

On Friday, about 20 Muslim doctors who practice medicine in the St. Louis area

gathered for a news conference in the lecture hall at the Islamic Foundation of

Greater St. Louis, 517 Weidman Road. The turnout represented about 10 percent

of the 200 or so local Muslim doctors.

"I just hope to appeal to the general public, not to develop into a mob

tendency, having received these messages from abroad," said Dr. Noor Ahmed, a

plastic surgeon .

Ahmed is president of the St. Louis chapter of the Islamic Medical Association

of North America. If the public is fearful or distrustful of all Muslim

physicians, the terrorists will have won, Ahmed said.

"The man in that cave will be smiling," Ahmed added, referring to terrorists in

general. "He will have achieved what he wanted to achieve, to create this

terror in the general public, a fear that, 'Here is another Muslim physician

coming. Let's get him.'"

The local chapter of a Muslim civil liberties group, the Council on

American-Islamic Relations, helped coordinate the news conference. Some other

council chapters across the country have made similar denouncements, but

Friday's news conference here was not timed as part of a national effort to

speak out, organizers say.

British Muslim communities have taken out newspaper ads condemning the bomb

plots.

Dr. Khaled Hamid, an allergist who has offices in St. Charles and Des Peres,

said Muslims have felt a backlash before — and now he hopes being a physician

won't be a "double whammy," of sorts.

"As a community, we are in pain. As a physician, we are in twice the pain,"

said Hamid, who is a board member for the Council on American-Islamic Relations.

In an interview, Hamid added: "We are tired of being labeled because of a few

idiots among us who do these things."

What's going on in Britain demonstrates that bad people can be found in health

care, just like any other job, Hamid said.

"We have the crazies amongst us, like any other profession," Hamid said.

Hamid cited examples of non-Muslim doctors doing harm, including those who

helped Nazis conduct medical experiments on Jews, and, he said, a podiatrist

who plotted to bomb a mosque in Florida in 2002 in revenge for the Sept. 11,

2001, terrorist attacks.

[John317]

...In some SDA schools I know of its the parents that have the problem. They don't want their kids sitting next to too many black hispanic kids in class so they move their kids to "whiter" schools.

While I think of it, it happens in churches too! I guess its not hate it just a preference and anyway we all will be the same color in heaven anyway. "as white as He is"

Of course, the truth is, that if He looks anything at all like He did while on earth, Jesus will be neither white like I am nor black like you are. He will more likely be somewhere in between, more olive colored. But if He is black like you, it won't matter to me one bit. I honestly don't care what color He is, and I am willing to allow Him to be any color anyone needs Him to be if it will help them trust Him and have no doubt that He loves them as if they were the only person on earth.

Lazarus, most of my family is hispanic. My kids are considered hispanic and my oldest speaks better Spanish than English. I've never noticed whites not wanting to sit near my kids or near my wife whose dad called her "Negra." (I've noticed other things that made me kinda mad but this was not one of them.) It's sad but true that there is as much dislike and distrust among hispanics for blacks, maybe even more than among "whites." I don't tell you this happily at all. The fights at the high school where I kids went to school are all between hispanics and blacks. Whites mostly don't even get involved. It is the same at my work. There my job all too frequently consists of keeping warring sides apart or breaking up fights that are already in process.

[John317]

I know of NO spiritual gift that is gender specific. Women are even doctors. And some are doctors of death. No descrimination there.

Yes, of course there is no gender specific spiritual gift. Paul's prohibition against women "usurping authority over the man" was not due to any lack of spiritual gift on the part of women. Paul states the reason for this in no uncertain terms in 1 Tim. 2: 12-14: "Because Adam was first formed, then Eve. And [because] Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

Carefully compare 1 Cor. 11: 3-19; 14: 34, 35, 37.

I am not here at this time to argue against women preachers or against women being ordained to the gospel ministry. I am only presenting evidence and argument that the lack of spiritual gifts among women is not the Bibical reason given for any kind of "discrimination."

A second point I would like to make is that the spiritual gifts can be used by women in the preaching to other women and in the study of the Bible with women. Just because God gives the gifts of speaking or teaching does not mean He intends them to use it to "usurp authority over the man." My grandmother was an early SDA Bible worker before WW I. She wouldn't have thought of wanting to "usurp" the leadership role in the congregation, a leadership function that properly belongs to the man. It isn't necessary for women to take over the man's role in order to fulfill women's talent or abilities.

I know that what I say will probably make some people really upset, but I am merely repeating what Paul said. I personally don't like it any more than anyone else does, but we can't deny that this is what the Word of God says.

Did Paul say this because he was a male chauvinist? Some dare to say that he was.

Did he Paul say it because of the local traditions? If so, why didn't he say this, instead of attributing it to the fact that Eve was deceived and Adam was not deceived? Why does he say, "The woman was created for the man"? Why "the head of the woman is the man"? Does being in subjection to a "head" imply inferiority? No. The head of Christ is God, and that does not in way imply that Jesus is inferior to God.

And why does he add, "If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord" and again, "Now if anyone is disposed to be argumentaive and contentious about this, we hold to and recognize no other custom [in worship] than this, nor do the churches of God generally"? (Amplified Version) There must have been even then many in the church whom Paul knew would reject what he was saying.

Finally, does the Bible predict that the church will get closer to God as we come down to the time of Christ's return? Or does the prophecy teach that the church will get further away from God? Yes, it predicts that the church will not get closer to the way God wants it to be but further from that goal as it draws nearer to the time of Christ's return. "When the Son of Man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth [among those who claim to be Christians]?" The question can only be answered in the negative, that true faith will indeed be rare.

The Bible is clear that the church at large will take on the image of the world, not the image of the Son. (Please study and compare 1 Tim. 4: 1; 2 Tim 3: 1-8.)

I half apologize for writing such a long post about this subject because I realize this is not neccessarily the proper thread for this topic. However, since the subject was broached and certain statements seemed to fairly cry out for response, I decided that I would at least offer a preliminary answer. If anyone likes, we can move it a different thread for further discussion, should that be considered desirable.