Pope: Other Christians Not True Churches

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

I think our church is growing and "reinventing Adventism," as one of our favorite pastors has phrased it. A faith based on grace, not works.

I agree. The question is, are we going to bury the hatchet and be part of 'reinventing Adventism' or going to keep kicking the church for not being perfect? My childhood church, in all its imperfection, still ministered to me.

I grew up in an alcoholic home. My mother had five husbands she married nine times with numerous boyfriends in between. Us children knew both physical and sexual abuse. Often times our utilities were shut off, cupboards were bare and eviction notices were common place because the welfare money we received was spent at a bar. The only stability I had in my life was the church. I cannot imagine how hopeless my childhood would have been had the Holy Spirit not moved my mother to send her children to church school.

The church does not teach exclusiveness today. I am not sure it ever did officially. In fact, our church's doctrine of righteousness by faith, state of the dead, destruction of the wicked, heavenly sanctuary, health message, religious liberty and community charity make it the most beautiful religion ever known to man.

[Taylor]

I am so glad that the church was there for you especialy during those horrendous upheavels.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

so increasing closeness and ecumenism after Vatican II was a sign of the coming end because the churches were aligning, and now more alienation and separation is also a sign of the end. Is there anything that can happen that isn't?

I think there are people that will interpret anything and everything as being a sign of the end. They certainly arouse suspicions among the skeptics, and rightly so in my opinion.

From my understanding, it is apostate Protestantism and the civil government of the US that will change, not the Catholic church. So Vatican II and Pope John Paul's friendliness to other religions wouldn't be real significant to end-time events.

[carolaa]

Vicar = substitute

Antichrist = in place of Christ

Gerry

"anti" means "against," not "in place of"

[Woody]

Quote:

I agree. The question is, are we going to bury the hatchet and be part of 'reinventing Adventism' or going to keep kicking the church for not being perfect?

Good Comment Shane. I agree. WE need to move forward and "reinvent" Adventistism. But there are some who want the 'historic' approach and resist the change. I think it is important to point out the fallicy of the 'imperfections' so we can move forward.

I give the church much credit for the progress it is making towards this. There will always be some die hards who will resist change in the areas of the nondiscriminatory practices of the church , health and clothing issues and verbal inspiration beliefs.

I see the old guard losing power but they do remain an influence that divides the church and prevents progress at a faster pace.

I think there can be no turning back.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Vicar = substitute

Antichrist = in place of Christ

Gerry

"anti" means "against," not "in place of"

The word "anti" in Greek means primarily "instead of" or "in place of". For instance in Matt. 2: 22, when it says "Archelaus was reigning over Judea instead of his father Herod," the Greek word for "instead of" is "anti." See Luke 11: 11. It also means "in behalf of" in such verses as Matt. 17: 27.

But "anti" also carries the meaning of "against." One of its primary meanings is "opposite." We can expect the "anti-Christ" to seek to take Christ's place but not necessarily declare himself "against" Christ. Satan knows that would not fool anyone. It would only raise suspicions. The antiChrist claims to be in favor of Christ but in subtle ways tries to take His place and subverts His law. So he is also called "the man of sin" or "the man of lawlessness."

Regards.

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

but...doesn't he know...

the One True Church which is the only church through which people can be saved, is the SDA church??!!

At least that's what I was taught from my infancy...

aldona

There's a lot of misunderstanding about this. The SDA church has never taught that only SDAs will be saved. On the contrary, it has always taught that most people in heaven will not be SDAs. There's no contradiction between that and the belief that the SDA church is God's remnant church. Many people grow up being confused about this because they only hear a small part of what is being said and written about it, and also because there are many SDAs who don't understand or know how to explain clearly what the SDA church teaches on this issue.

Certainly Ellen White never taught this, nor have any of its leading spokespersons or its publications. Yet still the same old misunderstanding continues.

Regards.

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Quote:

I think our church is growing and "reinventing Adventism," as one of our favorite pastors has phrased it. A faith based on grace, not works.

... be part of 'reinventing Adventism'...

Could you please say more about this?

Quote:

The church does not teach exclusiveness today. I am not sure it ever did officially. In fact, our church's doctrine of righteousness by faith, state of the dead, destruction of the wicked, heavenly sanctuary, health message, religious liberty and community charity make it the most beautiful religion ever known to man.

Completely agree! Could you explain briefly what your understanding is of the heavenly sanctuary?

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Stan]

but...doesn't he know...

the One True Church which is the only church through which people can be saved, is the SDA church??!!

At least that's what I was taught from my infancy...

aldona

I have heard others say that, but have never found that in denominationally published books not in EGW

[Woody]

I am just curious ... IS there another "church" through which God's people can be saved?

If there IS ... maybe I should check them out and see if there is less in-fighting.

[Woody]

Quote:

Completely agree! Could you explain briefly what your understanding is of the heavenly sanctuary?

Please John317 ... lets not have another hijacking here. Let's keep to the subject. Perhaps you might want to open up a new thread on this topic of yours.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: carolaa

"anti" means "against' date='" not "in place of"[/quote']

The word "anti" in Greek means primarily "instead of" or "in place of". For instance in Matt. 2: 22, when it says "Archelaus was reigning over Judea instead of his father Herod," the Greek word for "instead of" is "anti." See Luke 11: 11. It also means "in behalf of" in such verses as Matt. 17: 27.

But "anti" also carries the meaning of "against." One of its primary meanings is "opposite." We can expect the "anti-Christ" to seek to take Christ's place but not necessarily declare himself "against" Christ. Satan knows that would not fool anyone. It would only raise suspicions. The antiChrist claims to be in favor of Christ but in subtle ways tries to take His place and subverts His law. So he is also called "the man of sin" or "the man of lawlessness."

Regards.

"John 3: 17"

So, when Ellen White says the "Pope is AntiChrist" ... is she speaking in Greek or American?

[Gerr]

Quote:

So, when Ellen White says the "Pope is AntiChrist" ... is she speaking in Greek or American?

You have "Pope is Antichrist" in quotes attributing it to EGW, would you kindly provide the reference where she used that phrase?

Gerry

[Amelia]

I couldn't find any references of EGW calling the Pope, the anti-Christ. I did see statements from EGW calling satan the anti-Christ and any who follow him, anti-Christs.

Also she has a few entries of others calling the Pope, the anti-Christ. One being Luther.

[Woody]

Quote:

You have "Pope is Antichrist" in quotes attributing it to EGW, would you kindly provide the reference where she used that phrase?

I will quote from my Great Controversy Appendix Note 2 page 680 of my edition.

Quote:

"And so, although the pope professes to be the vicegerent of Christ, in reality, the vicegerent of Satan - he is antichrist".

Given the context of the quote ... I would take this to mean that the pope is antichrist. But I respect that you may differ in your interpretation.

[olger]

Quote:

I think our church is growing and "reinventing Adventism," as one of our favorite pastors has phrased it. A faith based on grace, not works.

I agree. The question is, are we going to bury the hatchet and be part of 'reinventing Adventism' or going to keep kicking the church for not being perfect? My childhood church, in all its imperfection, still ministered to me.

I grew up in an alcoholic home. My mother had five husbands she married nine times with numerous boyfriends in between. Us children knew both physical and sexual abuse. Often times our utilities were shut off, cupboards were bare and eviction notices were common place because the welfare money we received was spent at a bar. The only stability I had in my life was the church. I cannot imagine how hopeless my childhood would have been had the Holy Spirit not moved my mother to send her children to church school.

The church does not teach exclusiveness today. I am not sure it ever did officially. In fact, our church's doctrine of righteousness by faith, state of the dead, destruction of the wicked, heavenly sanctuary, health message, religious liberty and community charity make it the most beautiful religion ever known to man.

You should write a book, Brother. At least a series of articles.

oG

[olger]

John, the reinventing of Adventism, is, in many circles a reinterpretation of Biblical Adventism where all that was held valuable in the past is jettisoned in favor of more "acceptable" beliefs.

The "Emerging Church" motif is just one of these liberal reinterpretations. Look for it. It is gaining some momentum.

oG

[Woody]

Quote:

John, the reinventing of Adventism, is, in many circles a reinterpretation of Biblical Adventism where all that was held valuable in the past is jettisoned in favor of more "acceptable" beliefs.

Could you provide a cite for some of these "many" circles. Personally I have never heard of these "circles" ... perhaps you should change who you associate with.

Seriously though. I do hope you can provide some kind of proof for such accusations ... or I will just have to assume they are "accusations" that are unfounded.

Anytime I see the exaggeration "all" and "many" ... I become suspicious.

[olger]

Quote:

John, the reinventing of Adventism, is, in many circles a reinterpretation of Biblical Adventism where all that was held valuable in the past is jettisoned in favor of more "acceptable" beliefs.

Could you provide a cite for some of these "many" circles. Personally I have never heard of these "circles" ... perhaps you should change who you associate with.

Seriously though. I do hope you can provide some kind of proof for such accusations ... or I will just have to assume they are "accusations" that are unfounded.

Anytime I see the exaggeration "all" and "many" ... I become suspicious.

Feel free to PM me if you need more information, Redwood. In fact I would like to speak with you about a false allegation you made. Thanks.

I too, am suspicious about generous usage of "always, and never." Many is in the same nomenclature as few, so you needn't worry too much.

as always,

oG

[Amelia]

Quote:

You have "Pope is Antichrist" in quotes attributing it to EGW, would you kindly provide the reference where she used that phrase?

I will quote from my Great Controversy Appendix Note 2 page 680 of my edition.

Quote:

"And so, although the pope professes to be the vicegerent of Christ, in reality, the vicegerent of Satan - he is antichrist".

Given the context of the quote ... I would take this to mean that the pope is antichrist. But I respect that you may differ in your interpretation.

Yes the quote is saying that EGW believed the Pope to be anti-Christ but she did not say the Pope was "the anti-Christ". I believe there is a difference in the usage of the terms/titles.

[Woody]

Quote:

Yes the quote is saying that EGW believed the Pope to be anti-Christ but she did not say the Pope was "the anti-Christ". I believe there is a difference in the usage of the terms/titles.

At NO time did I ever say she said the Pope was THE AntiChrist. I indicated that she said the Pope was antichrist. I hope that clarifies it. Perhaps you were reading something into the posts that were not there? I don't know. So far I was not aware that we were at anytime discussing THE Antichrist. But maybe it was ME that was mistaken.

[John317]

I am just curious ... IS there another "church" through which God's people can be saved?

There is no direct connection between salvation and the church or denomination that you "belong to." As you know, people become saved due to God's grace which is received through the empty hand of faith, and this happens irrespective of which denomination one belongs to, it often happens before one belongs to any of them.

Now as one grows in knowledge of God's will and of His word, one will want to follow Him as he sheds light on our pathway. For me that light led to the conviction that His will that I join the SDA Movement. That doesn't mean I am earning my salvation by being in the SDA church. But it mean this is where He wants me to be. I honestly don't believe that God necessarily wants everyone to join the SDA church at this time. For one thing the church isn't ready for everyone, and some people would no doubt be discouraged by the SDA church as it is presently constituted.

Regards,

John 3: 17

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Quote:

John, the reinventing of Adventism, is, in many circles a reinterpretation of Biblical Adventism where all that was held valuable in the past is jettisoned in favor of more "acceptable" beliefs.

Could you provide a cite for some of these "many" circles. Personally I have never heard of these "circles" ... perhaps you should change who you associate with.

Seriously though. I do hope you can provide some kind of proof for such accusations ... or I will just have to assume they are "accusations" that are unfounded.

Anytime I see the exaggeration "all" and "many" ... I become suspicious.

Feel free to PM me if you need more information, Redwood. In fact I would like to speak with you about a false allegation you made. Thanks.

I too, am suspicious about generous usage of "always, and never." Many is in the same nomenclature as few, so you needn't worry too much.

as always,

oG

That's fine Olger.

Regarding terms. I guess I was more concerned with the term "all" that was used. Do you feel that is an accurate use of the term as you intended?

[Dr. Shane]

Originally Posted By: Shane

... be part of 'reinventing Adventism'...

Could you please say more about this?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

I am just curious ... IS there another "church" through which God's people can be saved?

There is no direct connection between salvation and the church or denomination that you "belong to." As you know, people become saved due to God's grace which is received through the empty hand of faith, and this happens irrespective of which denomination one belongs to, it often happens before one belongs to any of them.

Now as one grows in knowledge of God's will and of His word, one will want to follow Him as he sheds light on our pathway. For me that light led to the conviction that His will that I join the SDA Movement. That doesn't mean I am earning my salvation by being in the SDA church. But it mean this is where He wants me to be. I honestly don't believe that God necessarily wants everyone to join the SDA church at this time. For one thing the church isn't ready for everyone, and some people would no doubt be discouraged by the SDA church as it is presently constituted.

Regards,

John 3: 17