Times, they are a changin' #2

[Stan]

and... will we be able to retain all, and bring back those who left?

[melvin mccarty]

Here is a suggestion. Limit every discussion to maybe 4 pages then have a poll and close the thread!

mel

[Neil D]

And where would be the fun in closing a fun thread???? I have known some pretty good fun threads that went many pages...

[cricket]

We cannot possibly repair damage to all who have left--either of their own accord or otherwise. Owning our responsibility, however, might soothe a wound or two.

[David Koot]

In the midst of all the bashing--in particular, self-bashing, perhaps it might be of some value to take a practical look at the circumstances. While each person is valuable, in order for a group or a fellowship to continue and be healthy, some guidelines need to be followed, and some boundaries may need to be set and enforced. If a person leaves because of conflict with those standards or boundaries, then that is a somewhat different issue, and self-bashing under such circumstances may be counter-productive.

[Jeannieb43]

and... will we be able to retain all, and bring back those who left?

My first impulse is to say, Why should we expect to?

[That is, to bring into the SDA Church all those who have left.]

"Other sheep have I, not of this fold," Jesus says. I personally don't expect [or necessarily desire] that all Christians become Seventh-day Adventists before Jesus comes.

[olger]

The Lord's true people (remnant) will be keeping the sabbath and looking for His return on That Day, won't they?

olger

[Clio]

Doesn't mean they'll be card carrying members of the SDA church. I know of a several other denominations that worship on the Sabbath.

I also know of a surprisingly high number of people who are members of NO denomination, but who worship and set aside the Sabbath day as Holy unto the Most High.

[David Koot]

I also know of a surprisingly high number of people who are members of NO denomination, but who worship and set aside the Sabbath day as Holy unto the Most High.

The Sabbath is only part of God's message for the last days. the body of Bible truths taught by the Seventh-day Adventist church is God's message for the last days. And God raised up the Seventh-day Adventist church for the purpose of giving that message, and He calls all people everywhere to unite with His remnant church. God is a God of order, and He called His faithful, commandment-keeping people to organize as the Seventh-day Adventist church. In the final crisis of faith, God will continue to call people out of Babylon into His remnant church, the Seventh-day Adventist church.

Dave

[Clio]

Originally Posted By: Clio

I also know of a surprisingly high number of people who are members of NO denomination, but who worship and set aside the Sabbath day as Holy unto the Most High.

The Sabbath is only part of God's message for the last days. the body of Bible truths taught by the Seventh-day Adventist church is God's message for the last days. And God raised up the Seventh-day Adventist church for the purpose of giving that message, and He calls all people everywhere to unite with His remnant church. God is a God of order, and He called His faithful, commandment-keeping people to organize as the Seventh-day Adventist church. In the final crisis of faith, God will continue to call people out of Babylon into His remnant church, the Seventh-day Adventist church.

Dave

*snort* With that kind of spiritual arrogance it's going to HAVE to be Abba. Cuz it sure ain't gonna be us!

[David Koot]

that kind of spiritual arrogance

It is not spiritual arrogance. It is solidly Scriptural. God has been preparing a people to meet Him, and over the centuries, He has been leading them to greater and greater light. In preparation for the Antitypical Day of Atonement, God raised up a people to teach the judgment hour message, and He has called that people to carry forward the work of reform, and present the final message of warning and mercy, in an organized way. The name given to that group of believers is the Seventh-day Adventist church. The message which God gave to the ADventist church is the one He wants to be given to the entire world. God is calling people everywhere to accept the message and to unite with His last-day people, the SEventh-day Adventist church.

[melvin mccarty]

We should not forget that the message to the "Laodiceans" describes spiritual arrogance and warns against it. Maybe we no longer teach that the "remnant" is Laodicea?

mel

[David Koot]

The Second Advent message which was given by God, is indeed the last-day message. God did raise up His remnant church to give that message to the world. His remnant church has become Laodicean. It is still His remnant church. He has promised to purify His church in preparation for His return.

Dave

[Tom Wetmore]

...and He calls all people everywhere to unite with His remnant church...In the final crisis of faith, God will continue to call people out of Babylon into His remnant church, the Seventh-day Adventist church.

Jesus said, "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest."

The call to come out of one city, Babylon, is followed by a call to come to another place, another city, The Holy City, The New Jerusalem, whose Builder and Maker is God and not to another earthly habitation built by man. It is a call to the wedding supper of the Lamb, "The Spirit and the bride say, 'Come!' And let him who hears say, 'Come!' Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life."

It is a call to come to a meeting place, a final coming together that will not end. And this same Jesus seen going into heaven will come again, for His final Word is “Yes, I am coming soon.”

Tom

[Dr. Shane]

’Tis the old time religion,

[or Give me that old time religion]

’Tis the old time religion,

’Tis the old time religion,

And it’s good enough for me.

It was good for our mothers.

It was good for our mothers.

It was good for our mothers.

And it’s good enough for me.

Refrain

Makes me love everybody.

Makes me love everybody.

Makes me love everybody.

And it’s good enough for me.

Refrain

It has saved our fathers.

It has saved our fathers.

It has saved our fathers.

And it’s good enough for me.

Refrain

It will do when I am dying.

It will do when I am dying.

It will do when I am dying.

And it’s good enough for me.

Refrain

It will take us all to heaven.

It will take us all to heaven.

It will take us all to heaven.

And it’s good enough for me.

Refrain

[David Koot]

Jesus said, "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest."

The call to come out of one city, Babylon, is followed by a call to come to another place, another city, The Holy City, The New Jerusalem, whose Builder and Maker is God and not to another earthly habitation built by man. It is a call to the wedding supper of the Lamb, "The Spirit and the bride say, 'Come!' And let him who hears say, 'Come!' Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life."

The call out of Babylon is time-specific. It is given shortly before the final destruction of Babylon for her sins. The people to whom God is speaking have already come to Jesus. They have already responded to the gospel, and have drunk of that living Water. The call out of Babylon has to do, not with the general call to come to Jesus, but is an appeal to God's people ("My people") to come out of error and religious confusion.

Thus, the time-specific call to God's people in Babylon is distinguished from both the general call Jesus gave to come to Him (Mt. 11), and the gospel appeal found in Rev. 22.

Dave

[Bravus]

Nice discussion, but I think (to the extent I can read The Stan's Mind) that he meant 'back to CA', not 'back to SDA'. In that instance I don't think we can or should aim to bring everyone back: peoples' lives just move on. I've been on the web for about 13 years or so, and joined, enjoyed and left a number of communities in that time as I grew and changed. Haven't needed to move on from here yet, but if I do it will be a stage of growth and development, not a 'taking my ball and going home' situation... and efforts to bring me back would feel like efforts to stuff the butterfly back in the chrysalis!

[Tom Wetmore]

My point was only the destinational objective of the being called out of Babylon.

You said the call was to come out of Babylon and join the remnant people. The remnant are God's people. Now you say that the call is for God's people, which would be the remnant, to come out of Babylon. This I do not dispute, because that is Scriptural. To where they are called is the question. It is not to an earthly place or organization.

The invitation to "come out" strongly portends a definite destination to which those called out are to go. The exiled Jews were called out of ancient Babylon to return to Jerusalem. Reading Revelation 18-22, the sequence is the same. Babylon is judged and found wanting, is fallen, and God's people are called out to come home to the New Jerusalem. To that extent you are correct, it is time specific - end of time, second coming. The exiles are homeward bound to the New Jerusalem.

Tom

[Tom Wetmore]

Oh yeah! That's was the topic. So I guess the answer to the topic is that the more things change, the more they stay the same. Some people just naturally wander away from a topic, and some people, as you have pointed out, just naturally wander away from a forum.

Tom

[Bravus]

(I do also realise that not everyone leaves in the calm and natural way I describe: some are forcibly booted out the door and some do take their bat and ball and go home)

[there buster]

where abuse is tacitly condoned, the only healthy alternative is withdrawal. Remaining enables the abusers.

[Amelia]

No one is forced to stay.(free will and all that) And it's always sad to see people leave whatever the reason. Unfortunately with the diversity here on CA it's hard to keep everyone happy all of the time. Even half of the time. And some we couldn't keep happy any of the time. Sorry if my tacitly condoned abusive words harm anyone.

[John317]

My point was only the destinational objective of the being called out of Babylon.

You said the call was to come out of Babylon and join the remnant people. The remnant are God's people. Now you say that the call is for God's people, which would be the remnant, to come out of Babylon. This I do not dispute, because that is Scriptural. To where they are called is the question. It is not to an earthly place or organization.

The invitation to "come out" strongly portends a definite destination to which those called out are to go. The exiled Jews were called out of ancient Babylon to return to Jerusalem. Reading Revelation 18-22, the sequence is the same. Babylon is judged and found wanting, is fallen, and God's people are called out to come home to the New Jerusalem. To that extent you are correct, it is time specific - end of time, second coming. The exiles are homeward bound to the New Jerusalem.

Tom

How does the Bible describe those who answer the call of God to come out of Babylon?

1) They are described as a "remnant," or the last part of God's people. They are obviously a relatively small group because they are contrasted with "the whole world" that wonders after the beast, worships it, receives its mark, and are recipients of the seven last plagues.

2) They keep the commandments of God. Obviously the rest of the world is not keeping the commandments of God. These include all of the Ten Commandments. (Notice that many non-SDA scholars consider these people Jews because they are thought by these commentators to be back "under law," an unfortunate misunderstanding of the issues involved.)

3) They are worshipping the creator God who made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them-- a quote from the 4th commandment of Ex. 20. Thus they keep the Sabbath-- that is, all of the commandments of God, and not just nine of them.

4) They hold the testimony of Jesus Christ, which is the Spirit of prophecy. (Thus they have the gift of prophecy among them. This makes good Bible sense since we know from Scripture that there is a connection between keeping God's law and God's sending His prophets. The Gift of Prophecy ceased to exist in the church about the time that the church ceased to keep God's law and began to keep Sunday. This gift is restored just before Christ returns as God's church again acknowledges God's law.)

5) They hold fast to the faith of Jesus. This is to be understood as meaning that they have the same faith that Jesus had and also that they persevere in maintaining their trust in Jesus.

6) This small remnant come on the scene of action not long before Christ returns, about the time that the sea-beast receives its "mortal wound," and about the time that the second beast is coming up out of the earth. All 3 things happen about the same time.

[David Koot]

A lose-lose scenario is when you have two groups in a church or elsewhere, both of whom are convinced they are right and the other group is wrong--and, both of whom want to 'rescue' those in the other group and 'protect' bystanders from being 'led astray.' That is an absolutely impossible situation to work with. The only workable options would include:

1) The two groups have a change of heart and realize that there is good in the 'other group.'

2) One group leaves, and the other group takes over. That certainly is not ideal, but at least folks are on the same page.

3) Both groups leave and the church gets a fresh start.

Unfortunately, situations like this continue for YEARS in some churches or other types of fellowships. People are hurt. The church ceases to grow. It gradually dwindles in numbers. Successful outreach comes to a halt, because the Spirit of God cannot do what He would like to do. The Holy Spirit draws believers together. He helps believers see the good in other believers. He also helps people see their own shortcomings, and leads them to humility and putting others first. The work of the Holy Spirit is manifested in the fruits of the Spirit in the believers lives and interaction with others--love, joy, peace, gentleness, kindness, goodness, self-control, etc. And, in the fruit of souls for the kingdom of God.

Dave

[melvin mccarty]

Excellent point Dave and if we substitue "persons" for "groups" it would still be true.

I have been hanging around these forums for a long time and I do not remember an instance where anyone has admitted error and agreed with the other viewpoint. I'm not saying it has not happened but if anything is to be gained from these discussions surely we should be able to arrive at a concensus. What do you see as the problem here?

mel