Are Faiths Toxic?

[David Koot]

How about it? Are faiths toxic in and of themselves?

Dave

[cricket]

For the sake of equal footing in this thread, perhaps it would be wise to define first what toxicity of faith(s) is. Here is a website with a pretty clear description: http://www.philosophy-religion.org/criticism/toxicfaith.htm

And for fun:

Quote:

Self Quiz

A group starts with two people. And two individuals can find themselves embroiled in many of the same fundamental destructive group dynamics that large organizations fall prey to.

Are you "UNDER THE INFLUENCE"

of a destructive group or belief system?

Find out with this

SELF QUIZ:

Does your group discourage doubts, criticism or ideas that differ from their belief system?

Yes____No____

Do you tend to rationalize whatever the group does even when it goes against your sense of right and wrong?

Yes___ No___

Do you often feel exhausted from lengthy group activities, meetings and projects?

Yes___ No___

Does your group have its own unique words, cliches, slogans, chants, prayers and doctrinal phrases that reinforce the group viewpoint?

Yes___ No___

Are doubts viewed as a lack of faith, dedication, commitment or disloyalty?

Yes___ No___

Have "your thoughts" become "the enemy?"

Yes___ No___

Do you often find yourself doing more and more things in the group or because of group peer pressure that you would not have done on your own?

Yes___ No___

Does your group publicly humiliate or criticize members?

Yes___ No___

Does your group have a system of punishments and rewards for behavior?

Yes___ No___

Group paranoia: Does your group obsessively think other groups or people with different beliefs are out to get them?

Yes___ No___

Does the prospect of leaving your group seem scary, difficult?

Yes___ No___

Do you feel the need to leave in secret?

Yes___ No___

Have you been told something bad might happen if you leave?

Yes___ No___

Does your group/belief system think they have/are the only or highest truth, or have the solution for the world’s problems?

Yes___ No___

Are your leader’s ideas or belief system considered beyond reproach or sacred?

Yes___ No___

Do you follow a particular individual or belief system that requires unquestioning obedience and loyalty?

Yes___ No___

) Do members of your group feel specially chosen, superior, exclusive, elite?

Yes___ No___

Do you feel the need to save or convert others to your belief system or ideology?

Yes___ No___

Is your group secretive to outsiders about its inner workings, teachings, activities or beliefs?

Yes___ No___

Does your group equate purity and goodness to being in your group, and impurity or evil to those outside your group?

Yes___ No___

Do you place your group’s mission or agenda above your own goals and ideals? Do group interests come before your own interest

Yes___ No___

Do you find yourself thinking in a we-they, us-versus-them mind set?

Yes___ No___

Does your group/system have a clear outside enemy?

Yes___ No___

Do you see less and less of your family and friends who do not belong to your group or who do not subscribe to your group’s belief system?

Yes___ No___

Does your group use frequent public testimonials, confessions, or sharings that reinforce the group’s mission or agenda?

Yes___ No___

Is communication within, into and out of your group controlled or censored in any manner?

Yes___ No___

Does your group criticize, shun, abandon or demean individuals who leave the group?

Yes___ No___

Do members seek approval or get permission from group leader(s) for personal life choices?

Yes___ No___

Do you feel pressured to attend meetings, events, lectures, seminars? And do you feel guilty if you don’t attend?

Yes___ No___

Do you feel pressured to give a portion of your income to the group, or spend money on courses, books or special projects?

Yes___ No___

Are the group’s financial needs more important than your own economic well-being?

Yes___ No___

Does your group discriminate against anyone regarding race, gender, belief, or sexual orientation?

Yes___ No___

Does your group have a totalitarian structure: a strict, top-down centralized control?

Yes___ No___

Do you wonder if you have been in a destructive group?

Do you...

...have difficulty forming new friendships and intimate relationships?

Yes___ No___

...have low self-esteem, poor self-image or loss of identity?

Yes___ No___

...have difficulty making simple decisions and choices?

Yes___ No___

...often feel depressed, anxious and nervous?

Yes___ No___

...feel isolated, lonely, guilty, cynical?

Yes___ No___

...feel like you are just now growing up, becoming a mature adult?

Yes___ No___

...have short-term memory difficulties?

Yes___ No___

...feel you have nothing to believe in?

Yes___ No___

...often feel anger and rage towards the group?

Yes___ No___

...have nightmares or unpleasant dreams?

Yes___ No___

...find it difficult or impossible to stop mental or other group ritualistic practices?

Yes___ No___

This quiz has no scientifically predetermined number of "yes" answers to indicate a distructive group. However, answering "yes" to any of the above questions means you may need to examine your group and its influence in your life in those areas.

All the documents on this site are copyright 1998 by John D. Goldhammer and Prometheus Books. You may freely save, distribute or re-post this information with full credit given to this site's URL - http://caic.org.au/biblebase/abuse/selfquiz.htm

[David Koot]

Amazing! I fear I am out of the loop. It looks like the subject is a well-developed one. I was thinking more in terms of the general use of the word 'toxic.' I did not realize that 'toxic faiths' is a recognized topic. Hmmmm. What about this quiz? It seems to apply to formal, organized religious practice. How about informal, personal beliefs and practice?

But, as far as the quiz, well that does cause one to wonder. What formal, organized religions would be found toxic according to the quiz?

Dave

[there buster]

Quote:

I did not realize that 'toxic faiths' is a recognized topic.

Yeah. I bought my copy about 1992-3.

Quote:

How about informal, personal beliefs and practice?

Of course. It can be individual congregations, or sub-cultures within congregations.

I have personally seen it on just about every level from the nuclear family on up.

[Toni]

Would this topic include spiritual abuse? It's a topic that I have only recently read about. Or is this a separate thing?

[there buster]

Mainly it's a matter of scale. One person can spiritually abuse another, without even knowing them- sort of 'drive-by' abuse. Toxic faith usually includes a group of some size, and repeated interactions.

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

You know, it's looking to me like toxicity isn't just a group dynamic - it's something that becomes personal. When you take on a "me/they" attitude, even upon reading a magazine article written by someone who has an opposing point of view... You just know that something is amiss.

Anyway, you know, in all honesty, I was able to answer yes to every one of those questions but two. And I realized that toxic groups attract people who have the "toxic gene" in them: people who are unhealthy and are seeking answers to life's problems because they:

1. Can't accept it that life isn't perfect.

2. Think they need to change in order to change those things they can't really control, or at least to see them differently than they really are.

3. Think they need to change the world once they realize they can't change themselves after all.

4. Still can't accept it that life isn't perfect, and then just kind of flip out, either living in total repression or total depression.

5. Are the most likely to want therapy and the least likely to reach out for help from anyone outside the group that's hurting them in the first place.

I'm sorry, but in some of the things I've witness, after having been through counseling, group therapy in a neutral setting, etc. myself, and then stepping foot both into churches that have tight-gripped-legal-systems ("It's just the way we do things around here!") and into neutral work settings that are exactly the same way, I've just concluded that unhealthy group structures of any kind, religious or otherwise, attract unhealthy people - and keep them unhealthy because the structures themselves never change in their legalistic modes of thought and action. Most of that has to do with the centralized, top-to-bottom structure, and the rule-books that must be adhered to "or else."

This is the main reason that simply being a Child of God, of the God that I've gotten to know, who lets me be me and doesn't control my every move but at the same time only wants what's best for me and my happiness at the same time and Allows me to find that comfort zone for myself... is a LOT more attractive to me than any "God" who any particular denomination "subscribes to" who happens to be a micro-managing control freak (through their own particular legal system). I've simply stopped allowing fear to dominate my life, and I now look to God as my Dad and Husband, someone who doesn't need a "Honey do, honey be" list for me, and who I don't have a list like that for Him either, in order for us to get along with each other, like each other from the inside-out, and be happy together, without the need to condemn or punish each other: if there's a problem, we just work it out together, deal with our emotions together, etc. We actually do Love and Like, Enjoy and Respect each other, for better or worse.

It's a great Relationship to be in :)

[Toni]

Ah, okay. That makes sense. :)

[bevin]

Answering for myself at the time I decided to quit being an SDA...

Does your group discourage doubts, criticism or ideas that differ from their belief system?

Yes_X__No____

Do you tend to rationalize whatever the group does even when it goes against your sense of right and wrong?

Yes_X_ No___

Do you often feel exhausted from lengthy group activities, meetings and projects?

Yes_X_ No___

Does your group have its own unique words, cliches, slogans, chants, prayers and doctrinal phrases that reinforce the group viewpoint?

Yes_X_ No___

Are doubts viewed as a lack of faith, dedication, commitment or disloyalty?

Yes_X_ No___

Have "your thoughts" become "the enemy?"

Yes_X_ No___

Do you often find yourself doing more and more things in the group or because of group peer pressure that you would not have done on your own?

Yes_X_ No___

Does your group publicly humiliate or criticize members?

Yes_X_ No___

Does your group have a system of punishments and rewards for behavior?

Yes_X_ No___

Group paranoia: Does your group obsessively think other groups or people with different beliefs are out to get them?

Yes_X_ No___

Does the prospect of leaving your group seem scary, difficult?

Yes_X_ No___

Do you feel the need to leave in secret?

Yes___ No_X_

Have you been told something bad might happen if you leave?

Yes_X_ No___

Does your group/belief system think they have/are the only or highest truth, or have the solution for the world’s problems?

Yes_X_ No___

Are your leader’s ideas or belief system considered beyond reproach or sacred?

Yes_X_ No___

Do you follow a particular individual or belief system that requires unquestioning obedience and loyalty?

Yes_X_ No___

Do members of your group feel specially chosen, superior, exclusive, elite?

Yes_X_ No___

Do you feel the need to save or convert others to your belief system or ideology?

Yes_X_ No___

Is your group secretive to outsiders about its inner workings, teachings, activities or beliefs?

Yes_X_ No___

Does your group equate purity and goodness to being in your group, and impurity or evil to those outside your group?

Yes_X_ No___

Do you place your group’s mission or agenda above your own goals and ideals? Do group interests come before your own interest

Yes_X_ No___

Do you find yourself thinking in a we-they, us-versus-them mind set?

Yes_X_ No___

Does your group/system have a clear outside enemy?

Yes_X_ No___

Do you see less and less of your family and friends who do not belong to your group or who do not subscribe to your group’s belief system?

Yes_X_ No___

Does your group use frequent public testimonials, confessions, or sharings that reinforce the group’s mission or agenda?

Yes_X_ No___

Is communication within, into and out of your group controlled or censored in any manner?

Yes___ No_X_

Does your group criticize, shun, abandon or demean individuals who leave the group?

Yes_X_ No___

Do members seek approval or get permission from group leader(s) for personal life choices?

Yes_X_ No___

Do you feel pressured to attend meetings, events, lectures, seminars? And do you feel guilty if you don’t attend?

Yes_X_ No___

Do you feel pressured to give a portion of your income to the group, or spend money on courses, books or special projects?

Yes_X_ No___

Are the group’s financial needs more important than your own economic well-being?

Yes_X_ No___

Does your group discriminate against anyone regarding race, gender, belief, or sexual orientation?

Yes_X_ No___

Does your group have a totalitarian structure: a strict, top-down centralized control?

Yes___ No_X_

Do you wonder if you have been in a destructive group?

Do you...

...have difficulty forming new friendships and intimate relationships?

Yes_X_ No___

...have low self-esteem, poor self-image or loss of identity?

Yes_X_ No___

...have difficulty making simple decisions and choices?

Yes___ No_X_

...often feel depressed, anxious and nervous?

Yes___ No_X_

...feel isolated, lonely, guilty, cynical?

Yes_X_ No___

...feel like you are just now growing up, becoming a mature adult?

Yes_X_ No___

...have short-term memory difficulties?

Yes___ No_X_

...feel you have nothing to believe in?

Yes___ No_X_

...often feel anger and rage towards the group?

Yes_X_ No___

...have nightmares or unpleasant dreams?

Yes___ No_X_

...find it difficult or impossible to stop mental or other group ritualistic practices?

Yes_X_ No___

Scary, huh...

[aldona]

It certainly is scary...

...just as well I'm really a Quaker (only feel I'm an SDA on paper now).

Quote:

Does the prospect of leaving your group seem scary, difficult?

Yes_X_ No___

Do you feel the need to leave in secret?

Yes_X_ No___

Have you been told something bad might happen if you leave?

Yes_X_ No___

....hmmmm.... (amended to reflect my own answers)

aldona

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

It certainly is scary...

...just as well I'm really a Quaker (only feel I'm an SDA on paper now).

Quote:

Does the prospect of leaving your group seem scary, difficult?

Yes_X_ No___

Do you feel the need to leave in secret?

Yes_X_ No___

Have you been told something bad might happen if you leave?

Yes_X_ No___

....hmmmm.... (amended to reflect my own answers)

aldona

You know, that's so funny! I took the "Belief-O-Matic" test and found out that I'm a Quaker myself! Isn't that hilarious? And here I thought I was SDA or just non-denominational or something :)

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

You know, Kudos to David Koot for having the courage to start this thread! It's about time we were able to talk openly and honestly about this issue, from a wide perspective (religious or non-religious groups included) to a more narrow perspective (our own particular denomination), and in a mature fashion. I really appreciate that :)

[Gerr]

(e)]For the sake of equal footing in this thread, perhaps it would be wise to define first what toxicity of faith(s) is. Here is a website with a pretty clear description: http://www.philosophy-religion.org/criticism/toxicfaith.htm

And for fun:

Quote:

Self Quiz

A group starts with two people. And two individuals can find themselves embroiled in many of the same fundamental destructive group dynamics that large organizations fall prey to.

Are you "UNDER THE INFLUENCE"

of a destructive group or belief system?

Find out with this

SELF QUIZ:

Does your group discourage doubts, criticism or ideas that differ from their belief system?

Yes____No____

Does the religion of the Bible encourage doubt? Definitely not! It encourages faith!!! It does encourage to "come, let us reason together."

Quote:

Do you tend to rationalize whatever the group does even when it goes against your sense of right and wrong?

Yes___ No___

Bible religion says, "Test all things; hold fast what is good."

Quote:

Do you often feel exhausted from lengthy group activities, meetings and projects?

Yes___ No___

Let's see. Paul preached till past midnight. Jesus often prayed all night. Yeah, the religion of the Bible can be exhausting.

Quote:

Does your group have its own unique words, cliches, slogans, chants, prayers and doctrinal phrases that reinforce the group viewpoint?

Yes___ No___ [/quote[

The Bible uses such unique words and cliches like, "grace, atonement, propitiation, sanctification, justification, blessed hope, etc. " So the answer must be yes.

Bible religion must answer this, Yes, because: "Without faith it is impossible to please God..." Yeah definitely, Yes!!!

Quote:

Have "your thoughts" become "the enemy?"

Yes___ No___

I'm not sure what this question means. But the God of Bible religion does say, "Your thoughts are not my thoughts, and your ways are not my ways." So perhaps the answer would be, Yes.

Quote:

Do you often find yourself doing more and more things in the group or because of group peer pressure that you would not have done on your own?

Yes___ No___

Bible religion requires more & more, not less & less. In fact, it requires total commitment! However, it does so out of love & voluntary submission, not peer pressure. So the answer might be equivocal on this one.

[quoite]

Does your group publicly humiliate or criticize members?

Yes___ No___

Bible religion requires public censure of the wrongdoer under certain circumstances, which onlookers may interpret as public humiliation.

Quote:

Does your group have a system of punishments and rewards for behavior?

Yes___ No___

Bible religion most definitely does! Heaven for the obedient; hell for the rebelious & unbelievers.

Quote:

Group paranoia: Does your group obsessively think other groups or people with different beliefs are out to get them?

Yes___ No___

Bible religion says, "He who is not with me is against me."

Quote:

Does the prospect of leaving your group seem scary, difficult?

Yes___ No___

After His sermon on the Living Bread, many people left Jesus. When He asked the disciples, "Will you leave also?" To which Peter replied, "Lord, to whom could we go? You have the words of eternal life."

Quote:

Do you feel the need to leave in secret?

Yes___ No___

Many leave the religion of the Bible openly. Many secretly. The vast majority probably just fade away.

Quote:

Have you been told something bad might happen if you leave?

Yes___ No___

Bible religion definitely does. Turn away and you die!

Quote:

Does your group/belief system think they have/are the only or highest truth, or have the solution for the world’s problems?

Yes___ No___

Bible religion definitely does! There is only One Way, One Truth, One Door, One Life!

Quote:

Are your leader’s ideas or belief system considered beyond reproach or sacred?

Yes___ No___

The Leader of Bible religion most definitely has ideas that are sacred & beyond reproach!

Quote:

Do you follow a particular individual or belief system that requires unquestioning obedience and loyalty?

Yes___ No___ [

Quote:

This Leader demands absolute loyalty. You may question, but He demands total obedience.

Most definitely, Yes! "You are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood....!!!"

Quote:

Do you feel the need to save or convert others to your belief system or ideology?

Yes___ No___

Absolutely! The command is, "Go into all the world and make disciples....."

Quote:

Is your group secretive to outsiders about its inner workings, teachings, activities or beliefs?

Yes___ No___

To those who are being lost, it is foolishness, but to those who are being saved, it is the power of God.

Quote:

Does your group equate purity and goodness to being in your group, and impurity or evil to those outside your group?

Yes___ No___

Yes. Bible religion call unbelievers, "sinners", & believers, "saints."

Quote:

Do you place your group’s mission or agenda above your own goals and ideals? Do group interests come before your own interest

Yes___ No___

The Leader of Bible religion demands first place.

Quote:

Do you find yourself thinking in a we-they, us-versus-them mind set?

Yes___ No___

In a way, yes.

Quote:

Does your group/system have a clear outside enemy?

Yes___ No___

Wow!!! Bible religion must be very toxic!

Gerry

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Originally Posted By: chris[ti(a)n

(e)]For the sake of equal footing in this thread, perhaps it would be wise to define first what toxicity of faith(s) is. Here is a website with a pretty clear description: http://www.philosophy-religion.org/criticism/toxicfaith.htm

And for fun:

Quote:

Self Quiz

A group starts with two people. And two individuals can find themselves embroiled in many of the same fundamental destructive group dynamics that large organizations fall prey to.

Are you "UNDER THE INFLUENCE"

of a destructive group or belief system?

Find out with this

SELF QUIZ:

Does your group discourage doubts, criticism or ideas that differ from their belief system?

Yes____No____

Does the religion of the Bible encourage doubt? Definitely not! It encourages faith!!! It does encourage to "come, let us reason together."

Quote:

Do you tend to rationalize whatever the group does even when it goes against your sense of right and wrong?

Yes___ No___

Bible religion says, "Test all things; hold fast what is good."

Quote:

Do you often feel exhausted from lengthy group activities, meetings and projects?

Yes___ No___

Let's see. Paul preached till past midnight. Jesus often prayed all night. Yeah, the religion of the Bible can be exhausting.

Quote:

Does your group have its own unique words, cliches, slogans, chants, prayers and doctrinal phrases that reinforce the group viewpoint?

Yes___ No___ [/quote[

The Bible uses such unique words and cliches like, "grace, atonement, propitiation, sanctification, justification, blessed hope, etc. " So the answer must be yes.

Bible religion must answer this, Yes, because: "Without faith it is impossible to please God..." Yeah definitely, Yes!!!

Quote:

Have "your thoughts" become "the enemy?"

Yes___ No___

I'm not sure what this question means. But the God of Bible religion does say, "Your thoughts are not my thoughts, and your ways are not my ways." So perhaps the answer would be, Yes.

Quote:

Do you often find yourself doing more and more things in the group or because of group peer pressure that you would not have done on your own?

Yes___ No___

Bible religion requires more & more, not less & less. In fact, it requires total commitment! However, it does so out of love & voluntary submission, not peer pressure. So the answer might be equivocal on this one.

[quoite]

Does your group publicly humiliate or criticize members?

Yes___ No___

Bible religion requires public censure of the wrongdoer under certain circumstances, which onlookers may interpret as public humiliation.

Quote:

Does your group have a system of punishments and rewards for behavior?

Yes___ No___

Bible religion most definitely does! Heaven for the obedient; hell for the rebelious & unbelievers.

Quote:

Group paranoia: Does your group obsessively think other groups or people with different beliefs are out to get them?

Yes___ No___

Bible religion says, "He who is not with me is against me."

Quote:

Does the prospect of leaving your group seem scary, difficult?

Yes___ No___

After His sermon on the Living Bread, many people left Jesus. When He asked the disciples, "Will you leave also?" To which Peter replied, "Lord, to whom could we go? You have the words of eternal life."

Quote:

Do you feel the need to leave in secret?

Yes___ No___

Many leave the religion of the Bible openly. Many secretly. The vast majority probably just fade away.

Quote:

Have you been told something bad might happen if you leave?

Yes___ No___

Bible religion definitely does. Turn away and you die!

Quote:

Does your group/belief system think they have/are the only or highest truth, or have the solution for the world’s problems?

Yes___ No___

Bible religion definitely does! There is only One Way, One Truth, One Door, One Life!

Quote:

Are your leader’s ideas or belief system considered beyond reproach or sacred?

Yes___ No___

The Leader of Bible religion most definitely has ideas that are sacred & beyond reproach!

Quote:

Do you follow a particular individual or belief system that requires unquestioning obedience and loyalty?

Yes___ No___ [

[there buster]

Quote:

Wow!!! Bible religion must be very toxic!

the application you made appears to qualify.

[David Koot]

All of this is very interesting to me. I have seen the concept before, although described differently. But, for quite some time I have focused on the Bible and history as my source books, as well as lexical aids. I have also enjoyed the Spirit of Prophecy for devotional reading in the evenings. I have not kept up with other authors, but have heard bits and pieces, and have some familiarity, as a result of doing evangelism, with evangelical theology. I have focused my activities on working with non-Adventists, and have been having wonderful experiences. I would encourage people to consider that time is short, and Jesus is soon to come. There is a great work to do in reaching souls for His kingdom. I believe that Sister White's first vision has an important message. As the people kept their eyes fixed upon Jesus, and upon heaven in front of them, they were safe. This is safety for God's people today. Heb. 12:1,2. A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you. Press forward, looking to Jesus, seeking souls for His kingdom.

Dave

[Dr. Shane]

This "toxic faith" test did not get handed down from Mt. Sinai and many people's answers are based on their perceptions and feelings and not necessarily on the facts of reality.

Perceptions and feelings are valid to a point. For example, if my son is scared of the dark, his fear is real and I have to deal with it as a valid emotion and not just dismiss it - even though it is completely without grounds. However his fear of going into his dark bedroom should not lead me to pass judgment on the bedroom knowing that it is only his perception.

In much the same way just because some feel they have had experience with a toxic faith does not actually mean they have. Often time the only toxic element about a persons faith experience is the person themselves having the experience and sometimes others in that faith with the same or similar perspective.

For example, I have been around some "historic" Adventists that seemed quite cultish and legalistic. Many in these groups end up leaving them and the Adventist church altogether. They look back on their "Adventist" experience as toxic. However it wasn't the Adventist faith that was toxic but their application of it and they surrounded themselves with others like them. They were the toxic element - not the Adventist faith.

In my experience, I attended some of the church services of this "historic" Adventist group but never joined it because my faith experience resisted what they had to offer. Others that attended it were drawn into it and eventually left the church bitter.

[cricket]

While it is true that a lot of what we experience is subjective in nature, there sometimes comes a point when the "subjective collective" becomes "collective objective."

The first to believe in the toxicity of _______, are often ridiculed as being insincere, dramatic, over-the-top, reactionary, too subjective and even under the influence of evil. When more and more persons have similar experiences, a trend of commonality occurs and the original persons aren't regarded as ludicrous. Let the trend grow a little further, and those not believing the same as the "subjective collective" will face similar ridicule as the first group.

At what point is the room/faith/situation/group toxic? When more than few realize it, or only when it is recognized by the majority?

It is important to weigh even the seemingly "ridiculous" notions then of those who feel hurt. Indeed, it might just be that they've experienced something toxic and are not just crying foul.

[there buster]

Those accustomed to a dysfunctional environment view it as 'normal' and 'healthy,' and anyone who points out its toxicity is labeled a 'troublemaker.'

"In the kingdom of the blind, the sighted are considered crazy."

[bevin]

Yes, experiences of the SDA church very widely depending on both the individual and the congregation.

Let me give you a summary of the last few decades of the Nashua SDA church pastors (dates, names, and order changed to protect them)...

: ignorant - thought that one of the Gospels had an explicit "AD" date in a verse, but couldn't find it

: nice guy, chased out of area

: fired when left wife for another woman

: nice guy, chased out of area and of the ministry

: nice guy, received call to another congregation same conference

: nice guy, well loved, retired

: fired when caught borrowing money from members

: nice guy, fired (this week)

My wife last night said to me that now she has to make a decision between moving to a different SDA congregation or moving to a different denomination, this seems to be the last straw for her with the Nashua congregation...

/Bevin

[WayneV]

Gerry Cabalo

I liked your application of the questions to Bible Religion. In reality though, they did not apply to Bible Religion, but to "group," "system," "members" or how you personally related to each of those.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

My wife last night said to me that now she has to make a decision between moving to a different SDA congregation or moving to a different denomination, this seems to be the last straw for her with the Nashua congregation...

The other option is to get a few others from the same congregation and start a company. They can do this within the organized structure of the church. Done correctly, it is healthy and promotes growth and evangelism. Such groups can often rent Sunday-keeping churches to meet in on Sabbath or meet in a community room of a local library, municipal center, federal building or even a shopping mall (which is less desirable because of the retail activity on the Sabbath). I know one group that was able to rent one of the theater spaces in a local cine - nothing normally goes on there Saturday mornings. Such a groups should avoid meeting in a member's home because it then starts to be seen as that member's church. I am not even sure a conference would support a "home" church.

[Gerr]

Gerry Cabalo

I liked your application of the questions to Bible Religion. In reality though, they did not apply to Bible Religion, but to "group," "system," "members" or how you personally related to each of those.

But why not?

Gerry

[Clio]

Because the Bible has nothing to do with a "religion", Gerry. Everything in the Bible is about relationships.

It describes our relationship with our Creator, the types of relationships we should have with others, and is focused on the grace and power of those relationships rather than the forms, rules, regulations, and works based bondage generally imposed by "religion".

[David Koot]

Because the Bible has nothing to do with a "religion", Gerry.