Are Faiths Toxic?

[D. Allan]

Quote:

Quoting Monsieur le Duc: "It most certainly does. The worship of God is indeed a religion."

But isn't real worship what happens when we come into contact with God? when we come into relationship with God? Because when that happens we can not keep from worshiping and adoring him.

Religion is something that humanity has created to find God, but when the goal is reached - one is beyond religion.

[Dr. Shane]

James 1:26, 27

Quote:

If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

What was James talking about?

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Re: Perceptions, feelings, and fears among the laity of our churches.

Please forgive the tone of my reaction, should it come across as anything but Loving. I say all of this in Love, yet I have some sharp yet I believe necessary points that I wish to make here, and hope they will be received in Love. I am not wishing to personally attack anyone, and hope this won't come across that way - I do disagree with some statements though, and desire to show why I disagree with them. So, that disclaimer out of the way...

If I'm scared of getting killed in a car crash that I can't prove will even happen on a particular road trip, is it unrealistic of me to wear a seat-belt?

God doesn't ask us to be blind, dumb, deaf... He did give us brains, that include emotions, and He expects us to use them both. What He, I believe, never intended was for all of us to split apart into denominational factions, with each faction acting like a tightly-gripped borg-queen and chant "Resistance is futile." All I'm saying is that I'm tired of watching "God fearing Christians" use fear as a means of controlling others (and themselves) into really doing nothing more than the Buddhists and the Bahai people do, just with a different theological set of rules, a different proclaimed Leader, and a different ideology for the future. Seriously, it's worth studying world religions themselves, not just working with people who are members of other religions or denominations of religions. It's startling to see all the similarities regarding religious politics, and how pretty much all of them use fear as their main tactical objective.

For instance, we use the battle cry "Jesus is coming soon, so we'd better..." There's that "Honey do, Honey be" list again... Since when should the Bride be afraid of her own Groom coming to get her? Since when should she even have to look in the Mirror before the wedding? What? He doesn't Love her the way she is? He proposed to her but in the proposal said, "You're going to have to do this, this, and that, or I won't marry you."? What Woman in her right mind would Accept such a proposal, particularly under the threat of being Burned to Death by the same Groom who's Proposing, should she choose otherwise?

I've been thinking a lot about that whole "the branches will be cut off and thrown in the fire" thing. Yes. Branches. We are the branches. Fire. The Holy Spirit. We are fruitless without Him consuming every last bit of selfishness from us Himself (we don't end our own selfishness) and replacing it with His Love that we Ask for when we Ask for the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit and then taking ownership of what He has Handed to us (His Love) so that it can be the genuine article in us when we say "I Love you" to others and act truly Lovingly towards them. Fruitless without the Holy Spirit indeed. There's no point in all that Bible study, all the devotionals, all the sermons, all the, well, everything, if we don't either Ask for the Spirit once we Know that He's available to us, or if we Ask and then we don't Allow. And really, from that point on, there is no fear, no doubt, no worry, no - anything.

Our worldly-lives remain the same until we Ask God to change them and then allow ourselves to work toward that change, Knowing and Trusting that He'll do all He can to make our efforts succeed. And when we have that Knowing and Trust, we can Act on them both, without fear. We can follow our hearts because our hearts belong to God, or we can choose not to follow them (because that's always our choice) without fear of hell-fire-retribution from Him (because Jesus has now lived and died in our place - we don't need to fear OT punishments the way we used to) and only knowing that if we are chastised, it'll be in some way that allows us to Grow more (there's that Holy Spirit Fire for the Branches again) and Learn more. And it'll be something that's a natural consequence, not something God just dreamed up out of the blue. No, God doesn't make people sick as a result of sins that don't cause sickness. He does allow it because He can't stop the unrelated affects of sin to ravish our world until everything is Finished.

He allows us to get hurt in this life when it was "needless" (in our opinions) and others did the hurting because He has to give them the latitude to be un-Spiritually-Aware people until they become Aware of Him and can start their Journey intentionally, towards Knowing His Heart of Love for them (usually with the help of those of us who Allow Him to Dwell in us and who choose to Listen to our hearts). We aren't even responsible for their Salvation. It's only when we choose to Allow Him to Work through us that we take on the responsibility to make even that Work our own because He has Handed that Work to us to do, yet never leaves us, and always Offers Guidance, should we choose to Accept that too. We need not fear failure, and even if we did fail to follow our hearts, that's why He gave us a High Priest who Understands our weaknesses. We don't become gods as He fills us! We become more Aware that we are God's, and that there's nothing fearful about that Knowledge - it's Truth that sets us Free.

We are only responsible for our own part, which is simply to choose moment by moment whether or not to follow our hearts and Trust God to do the rest Himself, and then learn from the experiences we have, whether we follow our hearts or not. We need not worry about it if someone knowingly seems to choose against God in our presence. Pray for them, yes. Worry and go chasing them down, pressuring them and trying to make them feel guilty for not doing what we wanted them to do, regardless of our "loving intentions" for them, NO. God's words will not return to Him empty, void, and fruitless. They stick like glue in the backs of people's minds, and the more people push them away, the harder they stick. We can Trust that the Work He has Given us to do in the Kingdom and in the world is work that will do exactly as He intended it to do. Because it's His Work, which is Perfect already, and we need not worry about it from our own perspectives or judgment.

We always have every right to choose not to do anything for Him at all, without fear of being condemned for it, or that He's not capable of Doing it for Himself, or by using others (He is) - we will never be His Holy Robots, mindlessly doing what the Drone-Master (Hmmm... Sounds like D&D to me!) tells us to, without any vested interest or choice in it whatsoever after becoming part of the Kingdom. We can only do as He Offers for us to take part in doing because we truly want to - everything else is insincere at best, and though He can and does use anything, we are the ones who don't benefit at all from our insincere acts.

Since we aren't His Robots, we need not Live in fear of being nuked in hell if we do happen periodically to choose not to follow our hearts. We need only Know that He'll use the Holy Spirit to whittle away the hard edges of our minds, as He always Offers to and as we intentionally Allow Him to and only then, so that we can reconnect with our hearts, hear them, and keep on hearing them, until we can See for ourselves why in the world we would benefit from Listening to them. And then He simply Gives us even more Opportunities to act on our hearts for the benefit of others. He doesn't Give Up on us, His own Holy Kids, nor does He take away our Freedom of Choice. It's a Spiritual Growth Process, from our perspective. From His, I believe that it's just our natural way of growing in this world that is His, and we are His, and this is how He has Created us each to Grow, as we are able and as He Leads us in that Growth process with our consent.

Eventually, we all wind up Growing to any given point on the Path that is the Life He's Afforded us, and He puts that Path before us long before we can even See it for ourselves. But it's always there. God has Created everything, and without Him nothing was Created. The Light Shines in the darkness and floods the whole Universe. Even those who don't Realize anything about Him at all do Grow on that Path, only blindly, because even they have some small portion of the Holy Spirit in them - and they are a Law unto themselves, as Paul put it. And so, in the end, none of us need worry about our souls. Yes, it's good to work out our Salvation! Once we are Aware of it! And it's profitable to spread the Gospel of the Blood of the Lamb to others, so that they too can Enjoy the Fruits of Living as Members of the Kingdom of the Spirit which is God's and is God with us, in our Hearts, and which is here now! I choose not to belittle the Coming of the Holy Spirit into each one of us more fully as we Ask for and Receive Him into ourselves. I would hate to see us turn this experience into a cause to fear that somehow we'll make some horrible mistake and then the Groom, who Paid the Price for our mistakes, won't want to come back or won't be able to or something.

That is not the Light Yoke nor the Cross of Salvation that He has Offered to us and the world, the Bride, Herself. He died to set us Free from the burden of fear, worry, doubt, shame, blame, and everything else that causes our Peace, our Shalom, to leave us. It would be wonderful if we would leave the houses of our dark, fear filled worldly-minds with our selfish agendas that only seek to be Loved by others and don't Recognise the Connection with Him that He's Offering for us to Enjoy even more fully... and wipe that dust off our feet, and never look back! This is not a call to leave our churches! It's a call to Infest them with Real Truth and Knowledge as God Gives it to us through His Spirit in our hearts, and to wake those who happen to be Spiritually "dead" (unAware of His True Love for them personally and corporately) by simply sharing His True Love with them after we've Received it from Him intentionally and then taken ownership of that which He's Given us, so that our Love for them and one another can be genuine and Real.

And when I say "Infest" I don't mean through sermons, rote prayer, more books/devotionals, bantering about the validity of EGW, or whatever. I mean through Asking Him to send each of us personally Brothers and Sisters, one by one, who are hurting, confused, misinformed, fearful, and hopeless and to Work Tirelessly ourselves (not just handing them some silly pamphlet that only temporarily calms them down) and watch Him set them Free for Real through the Higher Understanding of the Implications of Salvation that doesn't place heavy yokes on our shoulders, as He chooses to Allow that to happen in front of us. And to Trust Him to do His part in it, and should we not always see results right away, we can See into the future as it were and Know that those results will happen anyway, and so we need not fear.

It's one thing to sit around and banter all day about Truth. It's another to Truly Live with His Truth in Peace (lack of fear) that's in us that we choose to share with others through having His Love for them in us after we've Asked for it and Received it into ourselves. We are truly Children of the Light - I put the Challenge before us all to Accept that as Spiritual Truth and Allow it to Infest our hearts and then flow out of them through us to others, be they "in the Truth" or not. Are we Spiritual Warriors? Yes. What Warrior can fight a Good Fight if he fears anyone at all, even death from his own Commander should he humanly make some mistake along the way? How can we win any War of any kind at all if we are cowering in our own spirits, hiding in the bushes, crying "we are naked and filled with shame and fear!" Freedom is being set free from that feeling of shame that tends to bring people into houses of shame and remorse that never choose to show them how to Live in that Freedom from inner bondage.

Let's enter those houses, Knowing that He is with us Always, (and that we have each other too, you know) and be available to Share what we Know of His Truly bondage-less Love with the souls of those who live in perpetual shame and fear, and show them the Way, the Truth of Freedom, and the Light of His Love that is available to them all so that they can Grow as they are willing to Grow! This is real Freedom! And only when we Know that Freedom for ourselves can we possibly, Genuinely and Completely even remotely Truly Desire to take ownership of the Love that He offers us and allow it to flow through and from us to others. The sick cannot heal the sick nor themselves. We must turn to the Doctor for that. But once we are fully well, and set Free from all this fear and bondage to that fear of retribution for even the tiniest "church decided" misstep, that we've personally been living under (when any of us can say that this is true for ourselves), we are then capable of choosing, with Free and Clear Consciences, to actually WANT to Love others enough that we just simply DO it by nature and by default. Because we've Accepted and Received that Love that He's Given us and made it our own. We can then Genuinely say, "IIII Love you, with His Love."

If anyone disagrees with me over this, that's cool - I can deal with that because His Love is in me and it's up to me to choose to Accept it, Receive it, and Act on it, making it my own so that I can genuinely Love each of you, and even that is always my choice without the threat of being killed off. If you have anything truly shocked or hateful to say to me about it, please PM that to me. If not, I'll still PM with you about it if you leave anything disturbing here for me, because to me, that's the Loving way to deal with major disagreements that are fraught with either personal insults (towards me for my beliefs as stated here) or my answering your questions as to why I would believe anything so Loony as I do, or even if I'm to risk winding up personally insulting you because I somehow chose not to Listen to my own heart and act on it.

[D. Allan]

James 1:26, 27

Quote:

If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

What was James talking about?

(James is not here to defend hisself but I'll hazard giving a commentary as you request anyway ) ... about how a person acts when they no longer claim to be religious, no longer seem to be religious, but actually have gone beyond all that conventional useless religion and let God work in them. People, he is saying, who are proud of 'being religious' are fooling theirselves. People should defend not 'religion' but people. This is what happens when one encounters God - one cannot help loving God - one cannot help loving all people - one has become infused with God's love filling every nook and cranny of one's being, and overflowing out everywhere in all directions - one just cannot help it. Religion has been outgrown - only God remains. Religion no longer fills the heart mind and soul. Only God fills the heart mind and soul. And God is seen everywhere.

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Originally Posted By: Shane

James 1:26, 27

Quote:

If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

What was James talking about?

(James is not here to defend hisself but I'll hazard giving a commentary as you request anyway ) ... about how a person acts when they no longer claim to be religious, no longer seem to be religious, but actually have gone beyond all that conventional useless religion and let God work in them. People, he is saying, who are proud of 'being religious' are fooling theirselves. People should defend not 'religion' but people. This is what happens when one encounters God - one cannot help loving God - one cannot help loving all people - one has become infused with God's love filling every nook and cranny of one's being, and overflowing out everywhere in all directions - one just cannot help it. Religion has been outgrown - only God remains. Religion no longer fills the heart mind and soul. Only God fills the heart mind and soul. And God is seen everywhere.

Amen and amen again! Sing it, Brother! Total agreement over here!

[David Koot]

But isn't real worship what happens when we come into contact with God? when we come into relationship with God?

[Jeannieb43]

Well said.

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

[WayneV]

Originally Posted By: WayneV

Gerry Cabalo

I liked your application of the questions to Bible Religion. In reality though, they did not apply to Bible Religion, but to "group," "system," "members" or how you personally related to each of those.

But why not?

Gerry

It is built into the questions (E.G.: "Does your group or system...?").

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

But why not?

Gerry

[/quote']

It is built into the questions (E.G.: "Does your group or system...?").

If you had asked any of the disciples of Jesus or any of the OT heroes of faith in Heb 11, I believe the answers provided would have been very similar to what I gave.

Gerry

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Perhaps a question of semantics is involved.

Yes, it is an issue of semantics. Pure religion, James tells us, is good. So according to James, according to the Bible pure religion = good However there is a lot of false religion out there.

The religion of Christ is in the end, still a religion. While it is relationship based, it still involves good works - even though we are not saved by them.

I have spent years in AA meetings and I have seen people come in that were completely bitter toward religion and slowly learn that religion doesn't need them but they need religion.

So many of us are so self-centered we cannot see outside of the bubble of self that we have been living in to look at the issues objectively. Many look down upon and judge others they feel are too religious, too strict, too judgmental and they don't stop and get outside themselves to look at these others as people in need of love too. Many of us are so quick to throw on the mantle of victemhood. Off the top of one's head, how many can list more positive experiences they have had with religious people than they can negative experiences?

The day I learned that I had the problem and not the rest of the world is the day I found liberty.

[D. Allan]

The secondary meaning has to do with a 'system' of 'organized' religion. But I am not so sure that God doesn't have something to do with the organization of religion.

Meilleures salutations, Monsieur.

Mon cher frère, Is He not more concerned about people than 'religion?' We should imitate Him in that respect, like the dearly beloved children we are.

Que le bon Dieu vous bénisse, Monsieur le Duc!

[Gerr]

Because the Bible has nothing to do with a "religion", Gerry. Everything in the Bible is about relationships.

It describes our relationship with our Creator, the types of relationships we should have with others, and is focused on the grace and power of those relationships rather than the forms, rules, regulations, and works based bondage generally imposed by "religion".

Divorcing religion from relationships is artificial, man-made, and a misunderstanding of what true religion is. One of Webster's definition of religion is, "the worship & service of God." The two tables of the decalogue has to do with one's relationship to God & his fellowman. This is reiterated by God through Micah (6:8) in the same way.

Gerry

[D. Allan]

So many of us are so self-centered we cannot see outside of the bubble of self that we have been living in to look at the issues objectively. Many look down upon and judge others they feel are too religious, too strict, too judgmental and they don't stop and get outside themselves to look at these others as people in need of love too.

You are absolutely right, of course, hermano Shane. Everyone is in need of love, tout le monde, todo el mundo. In pure good religion there is not room for self-centeredness is there? there is only room for God, the solution to all problems. The ultra-orthodox and the ultra-liberal should have no reason to be defensive toward each other, if only they would not sneer at each other. ?Hmm? :)

[David Koot]

Well, I am headed out the door to San Francisco for the evening. I will look forward to participating in this most interesting discussion when I return. Meanwhile,

au revoir

Que Dios les bendiga

[Guest charis]

Could we PLEASE limit the amount of non-English phrases and comments? It's become not only annoying, but rude to people who don't speak or understand French or whatever language two jousters are dueling with. I mean, every once in awhile - yeah, okay - but not every cotton-pickin post, for crying out loud!

[D. Allan]

Mais oui, cherie! (Sure, dear!) :)