Sex Abuse Allegations Filed Against Salem Church

[CyberGuy]

Gregory

You talk like a lawyer but we all know a lawyer you are NOT. Let a real LAWYER give the legal talk and not some lawyer wannabe. After all the laws in California differ from your state as you admit. Let the lawyer give the legal opinions.

[Gregory Matthews]

Hey, CG, thanks for the compliment.

One does not have to be an attorney to be knowledgeable from the business sense, and also from the denominational sense as to what the requrements are as seen by the denomination.

Legal opinon: It appears to me that you do not know the difference between legal opinion and legal advice. You might want to bone up on that distinction. Just a friendly word of advice, to one whom I have substantially agreeed with in the posts you have made here.

As I have substantially agreed with you, I am uncertain as to why you want to get into a fight with me. Pehaps you have an agenda that comes from somewhere else?

[Lil Star]

Isn't it more productive than not to be proactive when it comes to our children? It seems as though we are putting a price tag on our children. Just for me, there is NO cost that would allow me to put a child of mine into a place Sabbath School or VBS if I felt that a person did not feel right to me. There are people that a person can just sense is someone they don't want their children around. Sometimes you can pinpoint the reason while other times you can not.

I KNOW of a case where an elder in good standing gave a baby of less than 9 months old and closer to 6 months of age a fractured skull. While the mother told the church, the father was still given the right to be an elder of that church. More recently he abused his children by hitting, etc.... Still the father is an elder in the church. In fact the child told a teacher what was going on and nothing was done. Now, I know for a fact that ANYONE in a teacher or government position is SUPPOSED to and are REQUIRED to report any abuse of children of any kind, that was not done in this case. In fact they didn't even let the mother of the child know what the children were saying about this abuse. The abuse was SO bad that the child was talking about and planning his one suicide.

Granted that not all checks are going to prevent every little thing but if you add up the cost compared to the children? There is no cost that would be to high a price to pay for the knowledge that things were done to try and prevent the possibility of abuse.

[CyberGuy]

Gregory

Anyone can give legal advise. But tell me this. Should a person or entity get legal advise from a real lawyer or just someone who has an opinion on the law.

The whole issue is the cost.

Yes I understand that no cost should be spared to protect our children. Nice words but stand back from the emotional rhecteric and look at the facts.

Churches are barely able to pay their bills and basic functions. Add that cost of $200 per sabbath school worker and the cost would become prohibitive for some churches.

Also would it work? As we know this would not protect against this with no records or first time offenders.

It is like earthquake insurance.

Earthquake insurance is $20,000 dedectable and the price tag is prohibitive. According to geological survey the damage in my area from an 8.0 quake would be minimal as my house is built in Granite in fact my whole neighborhood is built in granite. Damage would be broken windows and fallen chimneys max.

Should I go out and get insurance for damage that would never go above the dedectable.

Now remember most sabbath schools are run by parents or grandparents who have a stake in our children.

I think the better solution is to have training sessions to train all sabbath school workers to look for the signs of abuse and abusers. And to train all workers to be vigilant and watchful. This more than anything will prevent abuse in my opinion.

Also in small churches everyone knows everyone. Never allow anyone ith a bad temper from being in charge of a Sabbath School. That is a bad combination. These people can serve in other functions like Adult sabbath school or potluck preparations etc. Do not put them with unruly children.

Now I think the state should make background checks free. If that is done then I would be all for background checks for all sabbath school workers. But even states are strapped for cash and that is not likely to happen anytime soon.

[JeriAnne]

I think the better solution is to have training sessions to train all sabbath school workers to look for the signs of abuse and abusers. And to train all workers to be vigilant and watchful. This more than anything will prevent abuse in my opinion.

First of all I want to say I have appreciated EVERY response to this situation though I don't agree with all of them!! I have learned some good things in this forum. I REALLY appreciate the above comment!!! And I agree wholeheartedly!! Unless we start talking about this and start learning the fact from the fiction we will not be effective in resolving this issue (as has already been forcefully pointed out to me!!!) Sexual abuse has happened and will probably continue to happen but its frequency will be drastically reduced if it is dealt with openly and awareness is increased as to the environment that it thrives in and ways to reduce the attractiveness of your church or organization to perpetrators! The program has already been written and tested and verified effective for this! An organization called Darkness to Light out of South Carolina is changing the way lay people and organizations and churches think about and handle these issues! Their web site is www.darkness2light.org The training can be taken online or in a workshop format. I am a facilitator for their workshops. But I have found that even with this excellent material it is often difficult to get the organizations that need it most to accept that their organization needs it! No one wants to think that Sexual Abuse could happen in THEIR organization! Background checks are only a PART of the solution! We ALL must make it our business to insure that the environments our kids are placed in are free from perpetrator friendly policies and practices! Darkness to Light

When this becomes the priority of the SDA Church as a denomination AND as individual churches They WILL become a safe place for children. The fact that we are still seeing lawsuits like the one that prompted this thread (and there are MANY instances where a law suite is NEVER brought) shows that safety is STILL an issue in many churches

[CyberGuy]

It has been suggested we should not put a price on our children. The sad fact is we all do put a price tag on our kids safety.

For example Comsumer report says that the VOLVO is the safest car on the road. It has side reinforcements and passenger reinforcements and does best in side rear and front collisions. Yet that car costs $38000 plus. Do we all rush out and buy a Volvo. No we buy a cheaper car. Many of us buy what my wife calls Rice rockets with pillows. A small japanese or Korean car with minimal reinforcemtn but high gas mileage that has airbags or a rice rocket with pillows. Grin

We buy our kids these rice rockets with pillows because we cannot afford a volvo for all our kids. So yes we do put a price tag on our kids because we are all not rich. We do what we can and what we can afford and train our kids not to drink and drive or use cell phones while driving and to be aware of their surroundings while driving.

Same for small churches. If they are required to get background checks I dare say we will see a reduction in services in our churches. Instead we should train all workers to be aware of their surroundings and of others to see the signs of abuse in the children and to take action when we see it. This more than anything else will stop abuse in the early stages at least.

Background checks sounds nice but as pointed it it does not stop abuse from non registered offenders or from a person who beats on his kids and family will not report on him or her.

I feel this will be the MOST effective weapon against child abuse within our churches.

[Beryl]

Just a word from "the land down-under". I do know that our Division has taken child abuse very seriously. And so have the laws of my state, Western Australia. It is now law in this state that everyone who is working with children of any age must have a current police clearance. The Conference staff includes one minister who, as part of his portfolio, deals with this requirement. That, I understand, is a requirement of the Division for each conference. There is a committee (male and female members) who deal with any complaints, and yes, there have been charges laid in some cases, and jail terms served/being served.

In my local church, the costs are borne from the church budget, which means that every member, in this way, contributes to proving safety for the children.

God bless,

Beryl

[CyberGuy]

Yup and Atoday reports that Australia's membership is decreasing. No wonder spending money on state mandated laws instead of using offerings to bring more people into the church.

http://www.atoday.com/news/atnewsbreak/2007/09/15

10,000 less Adventists in Australia

By Peter Roennfeldt, pastor, church planter and New Church Life editor

The 2006 Australian census figures provide challenging reading for Christians. Although the population in Australia is growing by over 260,000 per year, the number connecting with Christian churches is in decline. Denominations with stable membership numbers are in fact in rapid decline in relation to population growth. But official church records don’t always provide the best comparison. For example, as many as 10,000 people on the official membership lists of the Adventist church in Australia do not now identify themselves as members – and church attendance is significantly less. While some denominations have not yet embraced church planting as critical to reaching new people (and even denominational survival) – many evangelical leaders now see the urgency of cultivating planting movements. While cautious, most are also encouraging emerging and missional initiatives. For many this is in fact a return to their heritage. Glenn Townend, leader of the Adventist church in Western Australia , sees it this way for Adventism began as a planting movement. At a recent Church Planting Summit in Western Australia a possible vision was floated – 2,000 small missional groups and 200 churches by the year 2020. Such visions are needed and give identity. In Rekindling a Lost Passion Russell Burrill demonstrates that if Adventists were today planting at the 1870s rate, 1,822 new churches would be planted each year in North America alone!

(For more details on 10,000 less Adventists in Australia and the urgency of church planting, visit the New Church Life website at www.newchurchlife.com

[Gregory Matthews]

The key to your quote is found in this sentence:

Quote:

The 2006 Australian census figures provide challenging reading for Christians. Although the population in Australia is growing by over 260,000 per year, the number connecting with Christian churches is in decline.

For whatever the reason, the decline in Christian affililation is shared by the Christian churches in general. It is not limited to the SDA churches.

On thlis basis, I doubt that it can be stated that this decline is due to the SDA Chruch asking for background checks.

The decline is due to something in Austrailian society, whatever that may be.

[CyberGuy]

Gregory I never said that the decline was due to the SDA church askig for background checks. I was saying that the decline was in part due to lack of funds for evangelism.

Look at this.

Beryl reported that part of the pastors dutiles is to make sure all the government regs are done. More regs more time spent and less time vistiing and working to get the sheep back into the fold.

More government regs madating churches spend money on things like background checks and less money spend on outreach. Tell me Gregory. Which is the first program to cut if a church is short of money.

Not on salaries

Not on utilities.

Not on internal programs if that can be helped.

Outreach is the first to be cut and this Atoday article says that outreach funding is seriously in short supply in Australia.

Considence?

I think not.

Remember acording to the article 10,000 adventists in Australia on the church books do not consider themselves adventists. That is a serious due to lack of outreach to fellow church members. Lack of funds and lack of time for the pastor to visit due to doing government paperwork is part to blame.

[Gregory Matthews]

You raise some significant questions well worth thinking about.

[JeriAnne]

It would be interesting to know the number of past SDA's that can no longer belong because of the abuses they experienced there and the fact that the church has done a poor job in the past of owning their dirty laundry and cleaning up their act!

I commend the Australian Church for trying to make a difference for the children coming into the church! If you get people in through evangelism and the hook of "Truth" and then they discover that it is all a sham because the members and leaders in that church are not honestly dealing with their problems what good have you done! It is easy to get people in! What needs to be looked at is the WHOLE picture! And the reasons that people leave. Don't proclaim to have the truth unless you are willing to deal with the WHOLE truth!!! Even the ugly stuff!

[CyberGuy]

I think you put to much weight on the abuse part. Most do not care or have experienced it therefore have no knowledge or care about what they do not know about. It is the sad fact of life.

Abuse is there but not as widespread as you make it out to be.

Most SDA's leave due the cares of this life and what life has to offer. They stop atending church and slowly they drift away until they do not consider themselves SDA's. It is not abuse at all but simply a drifting away from the church. That is what you will find with the vast majority. I am sure abuse may have a small part in a very very very small percentage. But not as large as you try to make it out to be.

[JeriAnne]

Well, I doubt that we can know that for a certainty since the church is NOT very kind to those who try to inform them of the problem! The reality of the numbers that they could be dealing with has been verbalized as one reason they behave this way! The Catholic church lived in the same kind of denial!

[John317]

... If you get people in through evangelism and the hook of "Truth" and then they discover that it is all a sham because the members and leaders in that church are not honestly dealing with their problems what good have you done! It is easy to get people in! What needs to be looked at is the WHOLE picture! And the reasons that people leave. Don't proclaim to have the truth unless you are willing to deal with the WHOLE truth!!! Even the ugly stuff!

The "Truth" is not changed or become any less the "Truth" because of hypocrites or because leaders and members don't live up to the "Truth."

It is true, though, that the SDA church needs to take sexual abuse against children seriously and do whatever is in its power to stop it. I think it is taking it seriously.

[darlene]

Oh, yes, the church is definetly taking child abuse seriously! You will find that the leadership does take these cases very seriously and they are brought to appropriate resolution. That does not mean they are splashed across the media pages or television but, they are resolved.

We happen to have a case in our conference right at this time and it is being processed through appropriate existing channels. It may be slow going but, it is in process.

[JeriAnne]

"Appropriate" resolution?? By whose standards? I would really like to know what is considered an appropriate resolution.

[darlene]

Appropriate resolution could mean different things to different people but, I would think that legal action or government process are certainly appropriate actions, are they not?

Now that does not have to mean going to the media and spreading it all over the papers and television, etc.

[JeriAnne]

Legal action is certainly appropriate but it is NOT resolution. And Media coverage isn't resolution either!

I would think resolution would involve several important factors:

1. Admission of wrongdoing

2. Restoration of what has been lost.

3. Changes to prevent it from happening again.

This is where there are gaps in the resolution process. Sometimes the only thing that will provide enough motivation for resolution is going public with the problem. Organizations and humans being the self-protective organisms that they are, are not eager or ready to admit fault or pay for the damage they inflict. Along with that they do not see any need to change.

I do not know all it will take for child sexual abuse to be resolved. But I do know that Adults will have to be the ones to embrace the topic and discuss it and do WHATEVER it takes to make resolution happen. The Darkness to Light Program I have mentioned before teaches adults HOW to do that and is proven to change the way ADULTS Act in regards to protecting the children that are within their influence!

I firmly believe that if the Adults in churches that profess to be acting in God's name and preaching God's truth, refuse to do this, than God WILL bring these hidden things of darkness into the light HIMSELF!

Quote:

Job 12:22 He uncovers deep things out of darkness, And brings the shadow of death to light.

Whether the Media is involved or not will not much matter when that happens!

[darlene]

Thanks for your opinion, JeriAnne.

[JeriAnne]

Obviously the person filing this lawsuit in Oregon did not feel that resolution was in the hearts and minds of the church.

I wonder if there is anyone out there who has had dealings with the church on this subject that would be able to say that they experienced repentence, restoration and reformation when they went to the church seeking healing?

Darlene, maybe you know someone from your conference who would like to speak up regarding the satisfactory resolution they obtained in their dealings with the church on this topic. I would really like to hear their story. Perhaps there is something I need to learn and that other conferences could use as a model!

[JeriAnne]

And neither does the truth that is ugly become any LESS truth!

[Crystal]

I am reading this thread with interest. Obviously there are many views...but what I see is a whole lot of discussion AROUND what I think should be the main point of this topic -- "How do we deal with sexual abuse in the church?" It does not really matter what the laws were back then...what matters is this young women who finally had the strengh and courage to speak up...and OUR attitude towards a topic too often swept under the rug.

Anyone who asks why the child did not tell or scream out should stick to topics they are familiar with. A little research into child abuse will give you those answers. From what I have learned, the church leadership did in fact know of this 14 year olds "problem" as a sex offender. They chose to ignore it.

I was molested by the Principal/Bible teacher for 2 years in Academy. I know of four other victims and suspect there are many others. He was suspected of "improper" actions and moved to another state. One of the other victims tried to work with the church to have him removed from his Administrative position, but the church's response was full of icy indifference. She ended up seeking legal help, and the church ended up settling out of court to avoid a jury trial. The conference leaders and the lawyers for Risk Management told her they believed her. BUT , they did not remove him from access to other kids. He went on to another school in another state....

So... a couple of years later four of us went to where he was and went through the churches "Sexual Ethics Committee". They did at that point remove him...but only "slapped his wrists" allowing him to retire early with full benifits. I estimate, if he followed the pattern he had at our school, he has molested approximatly 30 girls while teaching in our boarding schools.

I asked the conference for a very small amount of money to help with my therapy. They were very indifferent and just as cold as they had been to my friend. I persued and was finally told..."We believe you, and feel so sorry for you, but if we help you, we would have to help all of his victims...it would be like opening Pandora's Box."

So what is my resolution with the church??? Not much!! But when I have the emotional energy, I still fight for recognition and help...but I have to be strong when I do, because the rejection from the church leaders is hard to take.

From my research and experence, there is MUCH MORE abuse in the church than most people are willing to admitt!!!!! Denial is a rampat disease in most churches...the SDA included.

[darlene]

I'm sorry to hear of your experience, Crystal. The abuse should never have happened. Yes, the church needs to deal with abuse. I do not feel it is for me to say how they deal with it. I would hope that they deal with it openly and honestly with the victim's best interest at heart for I believe that is how Jesus would deal with it.

Prevention should be number one and I believe that they are making every effort to do so.

[Neil D]

Sorry to hear of your experience.

there is a lot of things the church needs to deal with...

there is an awful lot of things that we don't....

I am glad that there are people, such as yourself, who have the courage to stand up and deal with other people, who seem to be getting away with a lot of bad behavior.

Our church doesn't have a listening ear...it needs to develop one...