Adventist Schools

June 20, 2002

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by PheonixRises:

I went through our school system from Grades 1 though 16 or college. During that time I went to four elementary schools one academy and one university. Yes there was rules but being on the west coast we were more liberal and since I was sort of on the conservative side on my dress style and hair cuts anyway I never had any problems. I greatly enjoyed by adventist school system experience. Both my kids are going through our school system same as me and they to have no problems.

I think you guys are looking at all the negative stuff and not looking at the good stuff in our schools. Yes our schools make mistakes but remember this. According to a survey done by the church most kids left the church NOT because of the school but because of their home experience. If the parents are over restrictive it will tend to drive the kids out of the church. After all the kids can come home and get away from those rules at the school anyway.

Jim<hr /></blockquote>Jim,

I had to REALLY TRY to be calm before answering your post. Yes, I guess I am looking "negatively" at our school experience. Probably because there was nothing positive in it.

I think you miss the point. The problem many of us reiterate about the schools is not the "rules". It is the organizational principles, approach of the staff, and unloving and critical environment we are asked to place our kids in that is the problem.

a) Organizational Principles: The chief OP seems to be, in many schools, "The Organization is more important than the students". While there are many teachers who don't operate on that principle, there are many, many who do. Students easily see when the teacher is more interested in control than relationship. The other chief OP, which is more structural is: "The churches exist to support the schools". This forces the churches to feel guilty about spending resources to actually reach unchurched people in their areas, rather than feeding the ever-expanding budgets of the schools. This OP makes a, in my opinion, SATANIC attack upon the very reason that God placed the church on the earth.

Approach of the Staff: Condemnation, suspicion, no effort toward relationship, Bible as a subject to be tested upon rather than the Word of God to be enjoyed and followed.

Jack

June 21, 2002

What are kids paid now at adventist schools?

I don't know......I got 35 cents an hour at Milo Academy in 1957.

June 21, 2002

Hi Jim,

I am sure that your experience in school was great and I agree as parents we are responsible for making the difference in our childrens lives. However are a lot of us having a difficult experience within the Adventist School system.

I have to agree with Jack, I have found that no-ones really interested in my child as an individual it's all about the "organisation". If I showed you my daughter Rianna's school report you would understand where I was coming from. The teacher does not know my child, yet there are only 14 children in her class. She can't tell me where my childs weak/strong areas are, because doesn't know. When the issue has been raised it has been reasoned out with no action taken.

I have seen children chided like they were the teachers own, even though they didn't do anything really bad. It is the norm for a child to be left till last if the teacher doesn't like them or if the child is a head of the rest. It is too much work for them to deal with that child one on one.

I know of a child in my daughters class (the nursery) who has a reading age of 8. The teacher is not interested, the child is bored. This child is given simular homework as the rest of the class. Why give a child phonics when they read better than you??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> (Not all teachers are like this!!)

My child can sing all the choruses and talk about Jesus, yet the focus on academic education is reduced. Don't get me wrong I don't expect my child to be a boffin before her time. But the balance has to be right.

Too much time is spent ignoring the issues and playing happy families, when under the surface is rotten!! It's a bit like a the hollow pie bedtime story. It looks great on the outside, bite into it and it's empty.

This is my opinion and my experience, again it is not the same for all. But no one wants to create a scene, no one wants to expose wrong as wrong. It's just too easy to cover it up, and when you complain you are a trouble maker. But then how can you push your issues forward when nepotism is rife from the conference right down to the local church.

I pray that God will give us the willpower to stand for right even when everyone else is standing for wrong.

Blessings

Fifiqueen

June 21, 2002

Fifiqueen

Every school has its pros and cons. Just because one child's past educational experience has been good doesn't mean it will be the same for others.

I am grateful to all of you who have the courage to post the TRUTH about your past experiences without the fear that it may be misconstrued as "negative". Not everyone has POSITIVE feedback on everything that is SDA. SDA is NOT the sinless organization with sinless members.

I'm grateful for C/A for having a message board where we as SDA members can share information with one another without the hesitation of sounding negative or angry.

By the medical profession, the cause of anger comes from being hurt and not knowing of any other way to deal with the pain.

I wish I could say that SDA schools are the epitome of a "Peculiar people, a peculiar nation" as the bible describes Christ's Bride (church).

I went to public school for 1st and 2nd grade. It was a very big school. Then for third grade, (my father being an SDA pastor) took me to SDA elementary school. It was small, four grades in one classroom. Gr. 1-4. At first I loved it and it felt I had brothers and sisters. Then the kids made fun of my lunches. First, it was my taking a lunch box instead of brown paper bag. Then, it was not taking a paper napkin but using a cloth one. (We came from Europe and my mother was used to cloth). My mother had a hard time explaining to me why my "brothers & sisters" in Christ were mocking me while the ones of the world in public school didn't.

When it came to 4th grade, my parents let me go to public school which was within walking distance. I spent 4-6th grade there. My mother instilled in me that I need to set an example to those and be a witness of Christ's love and example. So, eventhough some did kid around with me in a hurtful way, I didn't seem to mind as much, since I knew they didn't know better and I just prayed for them.

Grades 7-Academy was in SDA schools. Yes, the Bible I know I learned the most from those schools. I also learned to defend myself verbally, stand up to bullying, snap back at my teachers to be accepted into the "peer group" and was offered a cigarette by another pastors kid. These are facts. Not any negativity.

If I had a choice of sending my child to public school or SDA...... it would be SDA with great demand.... that they do what is required of them from GOD.

It is first up to the parents/family to install in a child at a very early age the importance of having a "relationship" with CHRIST (not fear from authority) that will last a lifetime.

I'm happy I'm an SDA <img border="0" title="" alt="[big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'm sad about the organizations flaws <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I hope to make a difference in a child's life <img border="0" title="" alt="[smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

That is why SafeChurch forum has been set up.

ss

June 21, 2002

Jack:

Sexual abuse in our schools? If the school didn't do anything then the authorities should have been notified. I know that the states I have taught in require teachers to report any suspicions of abuse to the police. This includes our schools. Look at what is happening in the Catholic Church right now.

Mr. D

June 21, 2002

Doug,

This maybe just a little unfair to the parents being addressed here.

>and as for the ones who has had bad >times in our

>SDA schools maybe we need to look >at our own

>morals and values and morals >becuase does not the

>children learn from their >parents???????

>just thinking

Under any circmstances can the suggestion be made those that posted concerning sexual abuse of either themselves or their child had anything to do in any way with hte morals of the parents. Would this in your opinion indicate a reason for the lack of response by those in leadership.

What about those that have described less than christian experience do to being poor. Is this a issue of morals of the parents.

Our sons went to the boarding academy and did thrive and are thankful they went. It was far from perfect, I did not expect it to be.

But most children picked on and abused are not victims because of the morals of the parents.

There are parents that treat it as an expensive reform school, when they realize their child is out of control. They are not the ones abused and picked on, they are generally the ones that do it, many times in full view of the staff, who does or says nothing.

Bonnie

June 21, 2002

Sylvia said:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Every school has its pros and cons. Just because one child's past educational experience has been good doesn't mean it will be the same for others.<hr /></blockquote>I have found this to be true. I was chastised for homeschooling instead of sending my kids to church school. But I am glad I persevered- my kids got a social experience and probably scholastic experience that helps them even today.

I might be out of it to say this, but there are some kids who thrive at public school. There are some that thrive at church school. There are some that thrive who are educated at home. I don't know if there is any one answer- I am just happy that we have a choice.

June 21, 2002

It pains me to have to take my child out of Adventist education. As Education Leader for my local church I am unable to promote this particular school at present. I recognise that state schools can be less desirable. Gail said it though, some schools work for some children and others don't.

One thing that we can't get away from is the nepotism. I beleive that it is one of the reasons why issues such as abuse in our schools does not get dealt with. Those in authority are either related, friends or friends of friends. This is a problem that we can't get away from.

At present I don't feel that my child is protected so I will move her out. I would like be in a position where I could leave her in, but basic protocols are not followed. Such as Risk Assessment for school trips!

However a at an Adventist school on in another city, my neice and nephew are doing very well. Input from parents is welcomed and issues are dealt with very quickly. Unfortunately this is not the norm.

It is my responsibility to teach my daughter about my God and to show her Him in my actions. I don't pass that responsibility on to school or church, my child is a gift that God gave to me not to others.

Sometimes as Adventists we don't take things seriously, sometimes we are too willing to let things go. We stand strong for our doctrines, but not so strong for our children or issues that are not necessarily doctrinal based. Call a spade a spade, that's how I was brought up. Sometimes we like to call a spade cotton wool and then can't understand why someone hit us with the cotton wool!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I hope I make sense

Blessing

Fifiqueen

June 21, 2002

My head is spinning!

I realize that all organizations and churches have problems. As for the guy who taught in public schools 28 years, how many years did you teach in SDA Schools?

Yes, we have problems, we should or Satan is not interested in us. My suggestion is that we develop an across the board way of dealing with legitimate complaints, and have them investigated. Things do get pushed under the rug, I have personally witnessed that in our schools as a teacher.

Mr. D

June 21, 2002

I grew up in what was a significantly SDA town and for a variety of reasons attended the public school. It was country and relatively unsophisticated and I did not have any real problems there. However I felt it socially, my school friends were not my church friends and at church, everyone else knew each other from school.

For these and other reasons my 4 children attended SDA schools for almost all their grade school lives. We tried to back that up with appropriate worship and home life. And today not one of them considers themseves SDA, and only one has any activity in any form of organised religion. They are basically decent people and I love them dearly - but of course this is a source of concern and sadness.

Any form of generalisation is difficult. We make decisions which seem like the right ones at the time, entered into prayerfully - and sometimes the outcome seems entirely negative.

So it is back to square 1 for me - to continue to pray for the well being, spiritual and physical, of my family.

June 23, 2002

There has been some interesting stories, some happy, some sad. Any suggestions on how we can address some of these probelsm, so they don't happen again?

How can we make SDA schools better?

Dave Davison <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

June 23, 2002

Step 1: Pray and pray hard

Step 2: Don't let issues go. Fight the good fight with all your might. Go to the top if you have to, our children are at stake

Step 3: Get involved in the school, so that you know first hand what is going on

Step 4: Pray and pray hard.

One other, give credit where credit is due

These are not answers for every problem.

Blessings

Fifiqueen

June 23, 2002

I attended an SDA school for 3 years. The first year I was miserable and had no friends so my mom took me out and homeschooled me for two years before we tried it again. The second time I had a mixed experience. I do have fond memories and enjoyed it, but many of the issues raised on this forum also occurred there. I was teased for doing the things Adventists are supposed to support and issues weren't dealt with well. Because of the things I've heard from my peers about our local school, I will be sending my daughter to a private Christian school but not our academy. I am teaching her what we believe and why, myself. But I do want her to recieve a Christian education so I will chose a private Christian school instead of a public one. (She's 2 right now, so she doesn't attend yet <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

June 23, 2002

Yes, I have known a mother who had sent her SDA child to a private Christian school as well.

Basically I think what we all want are happy, Christian kids who grow up to be happy, Christian adults. The trouble is that sometimes our round kids don't fit the square holes of a certain environment...

June 23, 2002

Yet in spite of all the shortcomings of our school system, the Valuegenesis study reveals that more of our children who go through our schools stay in the church because of itthan those who do not.

I wish though that the study could have included in their survey how many leave the church because of their experience in our schools.

GerryC

June 23, 2002

You may have answered your own question.

If we begin to ask questions as to how many leave as a result of our schools ,we may not like the numbers. If we look at a 100 that stay because of our schools and don't look at the numbers that leave, we end up with quite impressive stats.Those that leave are dumped into the bin of mal-contents.Ellen White says we will have those and must not let them dissuade us from our true mission. The numbers saved will only be a few in number. No one has a reason to leave and it would be wise not to listen to those thst do,lest they pull us with them.

Chimmy

June 23, 2002

Ellen White says we will have those and must not let them dissuade us from our true mission. The numbers saved will only be a few in number. No one has a reason to leave and it would be wise not to listen to those thst do,lest they pull us with them.

__________________________________________________

Cimia:

You said the above in your posting. Did Sister White say the whole paragraph or only the first sentence?

Please let me know where that reference can be found.

Dave Davison

June 24, 2002

Dave,

The statement was not meant to be an exact quote. Ellen White says many places throughout her writings that few will be saved. I believe the numbers 1 in 20 Seventh Day Adventists are accurate. She gives stinging rebuke to any that would critizie those that God has placed in authorty in our denomination. They should not be allowed to spread to spread discontent.

Which goes right to the heart of your question, of what we can do.

Change almost always requires criticism, a unhappiness with the way things are done

Most Seventh Day Adventists are conditioned from early on to resist change of any kind.It become a great concern if that change is required of those in authority over us are expected to change if the current actions or polices are seen as harmful.

A reference was made in another thread here about pretty feelings,anything that is not pretty by our definition is resisted.

The charity shown a homeless person paints a pretty picture of our christian caring and concern. To have to own up to the fact that single mother with young children left due to having to struggle on her own,and our acknowledgement of why she left is not pretty

The stories of abuse on this thread alone are not pretty,nor do they instill pretty feelings. We make a prettier picture by saying either we need to look more closely at the parents to see the real reason of abuse or in the face of undeniable truth,it becomes pretty again by saying it made us stronger.

You cannot expect change of any kind in any area without criticism of those not to be critized.

When we look at our sucess stories of children that remain in the church due to Seventh Day Adventist education it is a very pretty picture of what we stand for. It becomes far less attractive

when we look at those that left nd why.

Those are statistics that get little review.

Then it becomes those that were not firmly grounded. Frequently the trials and victories of biblical Daniel,Joseph and others are used as an example to pretty up the picture we look at

If they could do it we don't have to worry about those unable to do so.

We cannot change what we cannot criticize. Change requires criticism.

We should not criticize those we have been commanded not to.

I doubt you will have sucess reversing the conditioning of the last 150 years.

Why would those happy with the status quo want change that is going to force them to look at a picture not quite as pretty as what would make them comfortable.

Chimmy

.

June 24, 2002

Yes, Bonnie, there are many and varied reasons why children are picked on at church school.

For my boys, it was because they had learning difficulties. And the worse offenders were other children who were in the same boat.

My solution to that at a parent, was to get the school to call in a teacher who could spend one on one with these children and improve their reading. And it worked wonders while it lasted.

My son who is now 28, spent an evening with one family who was helped. He told me how those 3 siblings think highly of me, and that is because I spent time helping them, where no one else would. It was the kindness, understanding ( because I had 2 of my own) and practical help they received, and have never forgotton, even though the 3 are out of the church.

June 24, 2002

Learn More Easily.

This horrified me in our local newspaper this morning.

This is, of course talking about public school system.

Did you know that Transcendental Meditation is used in schools to hellp students improve their learning abilitiy?

Dr K. Rutherford, Principal of the Fletcher-Johnson Learning Centre, in Washington DC, needed a way to help his students overcome their stress and learn more easily.

His school had some of the toughest, most stressed students in a city that has been dubbed the crime centre of the world.

Eight years ago he visited a school in Iowa where all the students and teachers practice TM.

He told his staff: "I look around this school and all I see are smiling children. This is too good for just 600 kids in Iowa. I want this for my kids and I'll have it!"

Over 30 of his staff decided to get involved and learned TM for themselves. "We had amazing results," Dr Rutherford said. "You walk into the school and feel it's tension -free, a stress-free school right in the heart of the inner-city."

Another one of the devils tools right in the schools, getting hold of our childrens young minds.

June 24, 2002

Chimmy:

Let me understand what you are saying. Ellen White says not to criticise those in authority in the church. Change requires criticism. Adventist are resistant to change. We need to paint a pretty picture.

I do not believe that Jesus wants us to take no action when something is harmful, or means losing students because of a person or persons becoming stumbling blocks to others, just because that person is someone in authority in the church.

Many years ago there was a great leader. He was revered by those people he supervised. He had been put in the position of leadership by the "Chairman of the Board". Some chose not to follow his leadership. One out of three followed him loyally as good employees might be expected to do. The group that followed him were cast out of heaven along with him.

I do not believe we blindly follow someone in a church leadership postion without examining the way they conduct their job. Matthew provides us with a greviance procedure. When that is followed and the person will not changed then they are to be removed from the congregation. So there is a way to address greviances, and it is permitted for in the Bible.

Didn't EGW say that in the end times during the great shaking that some would fall away that we would heva never thought would do so.

I appreciate your interpretation and point of view. Unless God forbids speaking to a brother or sister, or getting others involved when that person will not heed you, then action needs to be taken.

Dave Davison

June 24, 2002

Dave,

While I agree with you when you say,"I do not believe Jesus wants us to take no action when something is harmful........." the cold hard reality is you are not talking to Jeus.

You are talking to chruch elders, pastors,conference presidents You are dependent on them to listen to you and share concerns about harmful actions. Have you personally tried this and what if so was the result?

Unless it is pretty, your chance of being heard is not that great. To have to get to the heart of a problem ends up many times painting a very ugly picture. .

I have been a silent visitor for sometime on C/A, although I am a new registerd member.

A short time ago a thread, I believe it was on this forum dealing with those that had HIV. The question was asked about giving them a hug This shows a very loving spirit.. Most were very firm that of course they would do so. Let me ask you, how many have you sought out that have been literally run out, become so discouraged they left the church, can no longer function in our denomination. This is something altogether different and not nearly so pretty.How many have we felt compelled to give a hug to.

It is not nearly so gratifying to say, we may have done this.Then we have to look at the ugly picture. This is what you are basically asking to be done.

I agree Matthew provides us with grievance process. Again, let me ask you. Have you personally tried this working with church leadership? What was the outcome?

Let me ask you which leader have you heard of this happening with. They are simply moved. By a peverse logic it at times becomes a promotion.

I think my question has always been who is the one in twenty and who is the nineteen.

Are the nineteen those that have fallen away, or maybe could someone who had been badly treated come back to God and the nineteen are those that have not gone looking for the one.

Last week we had a badly hurting woman on this forum that may have left. How many have gone looking.She will not be a pretty picture of adventism. Very little response to her plea.

Is she as valuable as if she had HIV.

I admire your desire for change. I do not dispute what you have stated as a biblical reference.

Nor would I discourage you from trying.

The members, church leaders must have a concern not for the problem, but what created it.

That of course will become a new problem.Much better to treat those that complain as an outcast.

Chimmy

June 24, 2002

Dave

My eldest went a boarding Academy.

It was an awesome experience for her that set such a positive course in her life..

Thank You Milo

Stan

June 24, 2002

Chimmy wrote:

"Much better to treat those that complain as an outcast."

_________________________________________________

Jesus left the 99 to look for the lost 1.

I don't think sharing names and particulars of my experience would benefit anyone. Let me just say that the Conference was made aware of the situation. I was basically condemed for saying anything bad about "my superiors", even though I went through the "chain of command" starting with the person I had a concern about.

I find myself disappointed with apathy. We see examples of the "infallibility" of the Catholic Church with the problems made public with sexual misconduct. What about Dr.Kellogg. He was a church leader who later embraced panthaism, seeing God as an absentee creator. What of other Christian leaders who have committed sins, and lost their flocks. If we claim infallibility and refuse to consider error, and a way to address it, then we should just go out and bury our heads in the sand. Pastors, teachers, administrators, and toher church workers are human and "all fall short". We must look at the fruits they produce, and make them aware of things that are not in accordance with Gods Law or civil laws "render onto Caesar what is Caesar's."

While I appreciate your opinion, I think we can agree to disagree. Since I really was looking for feedback on how to address the concerns mentioned in this subject area, perhaps you and I should continue any further discussions through e-mail.

Thanks!

Dave Davison

davedavison@kc.rr.com

[ June 24, 2002, 02:36 AM: Message edited by: Dave Davison ]

June 24, 2002

Dave,

You seem to have misundestood what I was saying. I do not believe the denomination is infallible. That is the problem. To say that and try

to effect change is by those that are disgruntled and looking to criticize the church leaders.

By your explaination you have encountered some of what is being discussed.

The chruch is for the strong and those that ca pull themselves up by their biblical bootstraps.

Any discssion of problems will ultimately bring a list of credentials and positives for our christian resume. We are better than others, we have the truth. Anything else that is said is overshadowed by that.

You say Jesus went looking for the one. Have you heard recently where as a church a statement that along with hugging a HIV victim we should actively seek those that have left the fold. No strings attached. Just that they are loved and can we help.

HIV victims are something we can handle. We did not give them aids. We may have given those that have left us a reason and that is hard to face.

The stats on the children that have remained in the church is heartening and we must recognize the good that can come from a christian education. We seem to recognize that accomplishment at the expense of those that have left us. Why did they leave? What can we do so we are not responsible in part for others leaving.? Can we crub those acts of abuse so we don't lose so many? That requires a firm committment and stand? How many are willing to do that.

While acknowledging the many good attributes and values of the Seventh day Adventist denomination are we capable of looking at the not so pretty pictures that lurk just underneath.

That takes chruch leaders and members alike. Total honesty and a strong desire to change.

Are we up to it? Or are we going to be content that we are still better than the others.

Chimmy.

[ June 24, 2002, 03:49 AM: Message edited by: Chimia ]

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