Church Growth in the NAD

[Neil D]

Does my church have an active community services department?

Does my church have an active prison/jail ministries department?

Does my church have an active Pathfinders/Adventurers program?

Does my church have an active prayer meeting group?

Does my church have an active vespers group?

Does my church have an active AY program?

Does my church have an active family ministries program?

Does my church have an active women's ministries program?

Does my church have an active men's ministries program?

Does my church have an active social committee?

Does my church go out ingathering each year?

Does my church go out caroling at Christmas?

Does my church have a choir?

Does my church have a drama department?

Does my church have an active lay ministries program?

Does my church have enough Sabbath school teachers for all the departments?

Does my church support a church school or an after-school program?

Does my church have small group Bible studies?

Does my church have evangelistic crusades at least once each year?

An active church will be able to answer yes to at least half of those questions. If they cannot, it is no big mystery why they are not growing.

[ChildofChrist]

I am no longer active other than weekly attendance. I enjoy prayer meeting but am unable to attend. We are even having a cottage prayer meeting for the seniors that don't like to go out at night. (And do we have the seniors!)

Quote:

. Activity is the key. Members do not even have to agree with each other on all doctrine. Active churches grow. The key to the Mormons and Jehovah Witness growth isn't doctrine - it is activity.

I will agree with this. When I had JW, it was an hour home and an hour to school and work. There were Wednesday night prayer meetings that I did not want to attend, but JW wanted to get out. At the Baptist church, he had several friends and it was close to home- - and we'd scoot right over.

One summer he went on a mission trip locally and 'helped'. Thing is, there were other young men his age there.

I even attended their mid week program to be able to sing and praise the Lord. They'd ask if I was going to join. I did attend their women's SS class and enjoyed myself. I did not mention that I was a SDA because I didn't want to construct walls AND I was just passing thru.

[Stan]

The base issue is lack of activity in the church. Just take a moment and answer a few questions:

Does my church have an active community services department?

Does my church have an active prison/jail ministries department?

Does my church have an active Pathfinders/Adventurers program?

Does my church have an active prayer meeting group?

Does my church have an active vespers group?

Does my church have an active AY program?

Does my church have an active family ministries program?

Does my church have an active women's ministries program?

Does my church have an active men's ministries program?

Does my church have an active social committee?

Does my church go out ingathering each year?

Does my church go out caroling at Christmas?

Does my church have a choir?

Does my church have a drama department?

Does my church have an active lay ministries program?

Does my church have enough Sabbath school teachers for all the departments?

Does my church support a church school or an after-school program?

Does my church have small group Bible studies?

Does my church have evangelistic crusades at least once each year?

An active church will be able to answer yes to at least half of those questions. If they cannot, it is no big mystery why they are not growing.

The people who leave, are often people that this does not provide fulfillment for.

[Mom E]

What about the reality that the external culture within NAD territory (and Europe and several other places around the world) is one of affluence? How about what Jesus said about the rich man entering heaven?

It seems to me that those from these areas are so busy with daily getting richer or taking care of the riches they already have that spirituality and interest in spiritual things has very little room in their thoughts -- both for church members and those they're to reach.

[Neil D]

What about the reality that the external culture within NAD territory (and Europe and several other places around the world) is one of affluence? How about what Jesus said about the rich man entering heaven?

It seems to me that those from these areas are so busy with daily getting richer or taking care of the riches they already have that spirituality and interest in spiritual things has very little room in their thoughts -- both for church members and those they're to reach.

I don't know about you, but I find too many Americans who are of the "working poor" class...

And I find that the middle america is busy trying to give oppertunities to thier kids....

IOWs, most of americans are making sacrifices to make the lives of thier children more rewarding...So all that stuff about "affluence" that you are talking about, really doesn't apply, IMHO...Sure the children have more oppertunities, but the parents are too busy working to make sure those oppertunities are not wasted. They allow the children to grow into who they need to be...

As for the riches statement that you are refering to- I don't think that there is much to that assessment...Let's face it, you got your computer,and are able to come here to post. Does that mean that you are rich and affluent? If that is part of the "riches" that you are refering to ,then you have raise the standards regarding riches that I doubt is based in my reality. And I can not find a commonality that identifys with it. Because I don't think that owning a computer and being able to come on to C/A is being "rich" nor 'affluent'....

No, being middle class is where you have a $100k retirement fund at age 45, and your house paid for, and a relative new, but used car and are paying on your kids college fund...and you have spent the last 10 years of your life spending every waking moment trying to pay off all that debt that you have aquired...and now, you have time to go on a vacation every 3 month for a week at a time...but you are still working 50 hours /week and drawing in an 3-5k salary/month and you are working on your children and your spouse's relationships so that they know who you are. You don't have time for much else, as your friends are mostly colleagues who are associated with work and you are networking with them on your spare time. And then there's a couple of hours/ week to come here and find out what everyone else is thinking....

In my humble opinion, THAT is middle america...And that is who Adventist need to reach...and that is where we can not go because we don't know how....

[Mom E]

My reference to riches and affluence is exactly what you describe - I was talking about it in relation to the rest of the world (we were talking about NAD here, and I was contrasting it to other areas of the world). And it's exactly the lifestyle you describe so well that I find is choking out the spiritual life.

You define "rich/affluent" as the what is way less than 1 percent of the world's population. Because the media often refers to those people, we tend to think there are a lot of them, but....

I'm defining it as just about anyone who lives on the American lifestyle level who can at least have a decent roof over their heads and one or two cars in the garage and food on their table. Compared to the other maybe 90% of the world (no I didn't look up the stats, so I'm sure someone can find I'm not quite right -- it's the general point I'm trying to make), we ARE rich and affluent. Compared to most anyone else in the world where the Adventist church is growing by leaps and bounds, we're rich and affluent (that's what the original question was about, was it not?).

Neil, have you ever been out of North America? Where did you go and for how long, if so? Your comments cause me to surmise that you're somewhat ignorant (as in having never had the chance to become personally knowledgeable) as to conditions of life for most outside of North America (or other developed countries).

(please understand that my tone is not at all negative!)

[Neil D]

Sorry, but I think we are setting two different standards...

Yes, i have been outside the US...I have seen Korea's farmers and what they have and have slept with some of them. I have been to Japan's working class, and seen the rich class...I have been to Canada and seen the working classs people of the western providence of BC as well....

Granted, the working poor of the US have it better than those of the phillipines and those of Africa by far....However, that doesn't negate that the working poor of the US are still the working poor in the US...They often have to work 2 or 3 jobs just to make ends meet. Often, they are renting thier apartment...Or they are contributing to a household that is often very crowded. And some of the working poor are not described in this situation, but have other things going for them...For example, they have an RV as thier primary place of residence. They may have a big truck to move thier RV from place to place as they work in various places....sometimes thier jobs are seasonal, and can not get work at other times of the year...

At anyrate, they have NO time for extra activities for themselves nor thier children. They do not have time to read a book nor go to thier child's extra-cirricular activities and watch them grow. They barely have time to go to the grocery store to get food. And your standard is that they are better off than others in other countrys...? Poor is poor, whether it is in time or in money. And due to thier time constraint, we need to somehow add something else to occupy thier time...some sort of bible study, evangelistic meeting, or pathfinder activity that they must contribute to.....Sorry,I think my statement still stands...poor is poor...and your standard and mine are two different standards...not trying to brag here...just state it as I see it...

And while church growth in the NAD is limited due to a variety of factors that compete for attention, comparing the elements that absorb our time to other elements in the world is a comparison of apples to oranges...

[Dr. Shane]

The Seventh-day Adventist church is the fastest growing Protestant denomination in the world. Let's stop and consider that for a moment. That is a truth that we must let sink deep into our hearts and minds. We have what it takes.

The only place the church is not growing is in North America and similar westernized nations. Much time and effort has been spent by church leadership to discover why the church isn't growing in these western cultures. It has nothing to do with our message. It has nothing to do with our doctrines. It has nothing to do with our music or types of services. The problem is not limited to the Adventist church in these societies but is widespread among all Christian religions.

We are filthy rich - and I mean filthy! Our so-called "working poor" live in homes with carpeted floors, televisions, mobile phones, cars, microwaves, central heat (and many air conditioning). The children of our poor have access to free public education through the 12th grade and many can receive grants to go to college. These "poor" receive food stamps from the government and free medical care so they have no need to worry where their next meal comes from or worry about getting sick. There are real-life doctors, DOCTORS, that give up their prestigious jobs in their home country to come to America and work as a janitor and thus join our "working poor". Our "working poor" actually have a higher standard of living than did kings and rulers of centuries past.

Our level of wealth must be considered a factor when trying to understand why church growth of all Christian churches in western culture is in serious decline. If the church is to grow in these societies we must give them what money cannot. As the old song goes... "money can't buy you love."

That takes us back to an active church. A dry, stiff, cold, legalistic church will never be an active church. It is only the love of Christ manifested through the Holy Spirit that moves a church to be loving. When a filthy rich member of America's "working poor" comes into an active, loving church, they will be drawn to Christ.

Small groups are a fantastic tool because in small groups we get real with each other. We can let our outward appearance of piety fall by the wayside and we can be open with others and let them know us on an intimate level. That doesn't happen in a sanctuary full of people.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

The people who leave, are often people that this does not provide fulfillment for.

There is a serious lack of compassion and way too much pride among many in the church. Not only the Seventh-day Adventist church but in other churches as well. BUT (this is a big "but") that type of lack of compassion and pride is also found in the church in other areas of the world where the church is growing by leaps and bounds. So, where does that leave us?

Dr. Laura repeats something I have heard in Alcoholics Anonymous for many years. Right actions will result in right thoughts faster than right thoughts will result in right actions. From that is born the cliche "Fake it 'til you make it'. That it will take longer for us if we wait to do the right thing until we feel like it than if we do the right thing until we feel like it. Often times right actions produce right motives faster than right motives produce right actions.

Acting on faith often requires us to do something even though we don't feel like. We step out in faith by doing the right thing, and the right motives or right thoughts will eventually follow. In America it seems we have a bunch of people sitting in the pews waiting for the right motives or right thoughts before they do something.

[John317]

What you said reminds me of something I once heard a very well known SDA psychologist say. He described a deep, long depression he passed through, the result of which he came close to committing suicide. He said a counselor finally told him to act as if he was happy instead of depressed, and a fairly short time after he began to follow this advice, he found that his feelings and thoughts started following his behavior.

[Guest gem]

What you said reminds me of something I once heard a very well known SDA psychologist say. He described a deep, long depression he passed through, the result of which he came close to committing suicide. He said a counselor finally told him to act as if he was happy instead of depressed, and a fairly short time after he began to follow this advice, he found that his feelings and thoughts started following his behavior.

Have heard similar to this. It was the "laughing therapy". Some of the depressed people who went to the session were first hesitant to follow the instructions (to just laugh and laugh)because of the thought that other people would think they were crazy. But in the midst of doing it, the clients started to feel the energy, then they felt this "joy" inside as they're doing it (laughing) together. I've been attending church here (western) for almost a decade now, and in those years I've met several people (SDA's) who were depressed, I mean very depressed that few of them were even contemplating suicide. As a church, of course we help each other. I considered myself lucky enough to see the other side of this world. I know what poor means. I've seen and been with people who have food that's only enough for breakfast and lunch. They go to the fields in early afternoon then later they take their harvest (could be corn or yam or something) to the store and trade it for something like rice, dried fish, etc....food for dinner. And they do it everyday. But what amazes me is that these people don't seem to be depressed and worried like we do here in western countries. Here, we have, I would say, the appliances we needed in our home. We don't have to gather firewoods for food preparation before sunset on Fridays like our brothers and sisters in Christ in some poor countries. I had a previledge to visit some churches in Asia five months ago. On Sabbaths, the church was quite full, and members seemed happy and content. Another thing that I noticed was, everybody was doing something for the church. Somebody was organizing choir for the junoirs and another for the young adults. A twelve year-old girl was leading the AY Program. And after the AY Program most of the people stayed for sundown worship. Everybody was participating. Nobody was looking depressed.

[Guest gem]

I am no longer active other than weekly attendance. I enjoy prayer meeting but am unable to attend. We are even having a cottage prayer meeting for the seniors that don't like to go out at night. (And do we have the seniors!)

I will agree with this. When I had JW, it was an hour home and an hour to school and work. There were Wednesday night prayer meetings that I did not want to attend, but JW wanted to get out. At the Baptist church, he had several friends and it was close to home- - and we'd scoot right over.

One summer he went on a mission trip locally and 'helped'. Thing is, there were other young men his age there.

I even attended their mid week program to be able to sing and praise the Lord. They'd ask if I was going to join. I did attend their women's SS class and enjoyed myself. I did not mention that I was a SDA because I didn't want to construct walls AND I was just passing thru.

Good story. Thanks for sharing it.

[Neil D]

Quote:

The Seventh-day Adventist church is the fastest growing Protestant denomination in the world. Let's stop and consider that for a moment. That is a truth that we must let sink deep into our hearts and minds. We have what it takes.

Uh huh.....and the point about being the fastest growing Protestant denomination in the world has what bearing on this thread, beside the fact that it is changing the thread. ?

Quote:

We are filthy rich - and I mean filthy! Our so-called "working poor" live in homes with carpeted floors, televisions, mobile phones, cars, microwaves, central heat (and many air conditioning). The children of our poor have access to free public education through the 12th grade and many can receive grants to go to college. These "poor" receive food stamps from the government and free medical care so they have no need to worry where their next meal comes from or worry about getting sick. There are real-life doctors, DOCTORS, that give up their prestigious jobs in their home country to come to America and work as a janitor and thus join our "working poor". Our "working poor" actually have a higher standard of living than did kings and rulers of centuries past.

Food stamps from the goverment? Where is that? Oh, they have it coming to them for 2 years, and then it is gone...that food stamp program is at best minimal...Many of the children don't have food for breakfast, and the quality of food...Aw, Shane, there is no use to tell you...you wouldn't believe me if I tell you of the quality of life some of the poor have...And you would just tell me of the people in Mexico and how bad off they are...How could you understand if you do not see it on a daily basis? I do see it, especially in the older population...I know because I see it...No amount of your 'statistic' are going to prove to me that our working poor are better off than kings and queens of yesteryear... I would invite you to come with me, but you are in Texas...Just so you can see and watch as some of the people I see everyday have to choose between breathing and food or an electric bill...

And BTW, I have yet to see a foreign Doctor from India or Pakastan come to the US and become a janitor in our country...In fact, i know too many foreign doctors who take care of average Americans...and i won't mention that many of them will not take medicare....

Quote:

Our level of wealth must be considered a factor when trying to understand why church growth of all Christian churches in western culture is in serious decline. If the church is to grow in these societies we must give them what money cannot. As the old song goes... "money can't buy you love."

I seriously question whether we are 'poor in spirit' because we don't take the time or is it because we throw money at the program? If we dont take the time, the question is why? Your claims that religion is not taken seriously, is a plausible explaination, but I doubt that is the majority of the problem. I still say that the majority of the middle class don't have time due to the pressures of living...making a living, taking care of children, driving them around, taking care of relationships...Until have met thier needs, we will never be heard.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

the point about being the fastest growing Protestant denomination in the world has what bearing on this thread

This thread is about church growth in North America. The fact that we are the fastest growing Protestant denomination in the world must be contrast with the fact we are not growing in North America in order to really discuss the issue.

Quote:

No amount of your 'statistic' are going to prove to me that our working poor are better off than kings and queens of yesteryear...

My father abandoned my family when I was five years old. I grew up on food stamps and the welfare dime. We didn't have a car and there were times we didn't have a TV or a refrigerator. We frequently would have our power shut off. The county I live in is the poorest county in the United States of America. I live in a poor neighborhood. I doubt there is anyone else in my neighborhood that makes over $50k/year. I understand poverty in America. I grew up in it and am surrounded by it. I love the poor. I get along with them better than the wealthy. They are my people. They are my roots. I live in a mobile home and drive a used car not because I can't afford something better but because this is who I am.

I do know a doctor that works as a janitor and another that works as an air conditioning repairman. I know a college professor that works in a factory. They all left their prestigious positions in their home country to come here and join our working poor.

I went to the King Tut exhibit when it came to town. They had his bed there and his chariot. I will suggest that most of America's poor sleep on better beds and have much more comfortable cars than King Tut did. However when I was in Panama, in the jungle, the people were sleeping on plywood suspended in their bamboo huts by rope. King Tut did have it better than them.

[Guest gem]

My father abandoned my family when I was five years old. I grew up on food stamps and the welfare dime. We didn't have a car and there were times we didn't have a TV or a refrigerator. We frequently would have our power shut off. The county I live in is the poorest county in the United States of America. I live in a poor neighborhood. I doubt there is anyone else in my neighborhood that makes over $50k/year. I understand poverty in America. I grew up in it and am surrounded by it. I love the poor. I get along with them better than the wealthy. They are my people. They are my roots. I live in a mobile home and drive a used car not because I can't afford something better but because this is who I am.

I do know a doctor that works as a janitor and another that works as an air conditioning repairman. I know a college professor that works in a factory. They all left their prestigious positions in their home country to come here and join our working poor.

I went to the King Tut exhibit when it came to town. They had his bed there and his chariot. I will suggest that most of America's poor sleep on better beds and have much more comfortable cars than King Tut did. However when I was in Panama, in the jungle, the people were sleeping on plywood suspended in their bamboo huts by rope. King Tut did have it better than them.

Nice story, Shane, and thank you for sharing it.

[olger]

What about the reality that the external culture within NAD territory (and Europe and several other places around the world) is one of affluence? How about what Jesus said about the rich man entering heaven?

It seems to me that those from these areas are so busy with daily getting richer or taking care of the riches they already have that spirituality and interest in spiritual things has very little room in their thoughts -- both for church members and those they're to reach.

Excellent points, Sister.

olger

[Neil D]

Quote:

the point about being the fastest growing Protestant denomination in the world has what bearing on this thread

This thread is about church growth in North America. The fact that we are the fastest growing Protestant denomination in the world must be contrast with the fact we are not growing in North America in order to really discuss the issue.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

have to help them with decisions regarding breathing medications and paying the electric bill or even eating...and they don't get food stamps.

My mother fits this very description (but of course I know others too - I do live in the poorest county in the USA). However my mother could get food stamps but it requires so much paperwork that she doesn't do it. She isn't dying from hunger either. She lives in low-income housing, lives only off her Social Security check, has a car, microwave, TV, VCR, cell phone, car, air conditioning, adjustable bed, carpeted floors, indoor plumbing with a full tub and shower, hot water heater, refrigerator, stove and oven and cable television. And she lives below the poverty level. Oh if only King Tut had it so good.

America is not only wealthy on a global scale but on a historic scale. What nation in the history of the world has ever had such a high lifestyle like virtually all American enjoy? Americans that really struggle and have things real bad are, for the most part, drug addicts, alcoholics or mental ill and living on the streets. America's safety net takes care of our poor, for the most part, pretty good.

People need love and compassion. They need understanding and care. That is what a lot of the church's programs are directed towards. Pathfinders, AY, prayer meeting, women's ministries, family ministries, etc all target people in a loving, caring, compassionate way. However if those programs are not active, they are not reaching anyone.

[Neil D]

Quote:

have to help them with decisions regarding breathing medications and paying the electric bill or even eating...and they don't get food stamps.

My mother fits this very description (but of course I know others too - I do live in the poorest county in the USA). However my mother could get food stamps but it requires so much paperwork that she doesn't do it. She isn't dying from hunger either. She lives in low-income housing, lives only off her Social Security check, has a car, microwave, TV, VCR, cell phone, car, air conditioning, adjustable bed, carpeted floors, indoor plumbing with a full tub and shower, hot water heater, refrigerator, stove and oven and cable television. And she lives below the poverty level. Oh if only King Tut had it so good.

[Dr. Shane]

I have known many poor living in bad conditions in America - including the homeless. However each of these I have known, have been alcoholics or drug addicts. Many of these people take the little bit of government assistance they receive to spend on alcohol, drugs or tobacco. The Christian churches in America are reaching these people, as many of them that want to be reached.

The church's doctrines, structure and programs are the same in North America as they are in Latin America, Africa and Asia where the church is growing rapidly. So we must look at what is different between here (where we are not growing) and there (were they are growing). The cultures are different. We are much wealthier than they are. Our churches are much less active than theirs are. However basic human nature is the same.

My comment about human nature is important. People in the developing world are selfish like we are. They are inconsiderate as much as we are. They are judgmental in much the same way that we are. So while all these negative traits hurt church growth, it can't be the reason why the NAD is experiencing negative growth while the developing world is experiencing incredible growth.

Consider for a moment that my wife was disfellowshipped, as a teenager, for working on the Sabbath. Her aunt was disfellowshipped for wearing jeans to church. Her sister was disfellowshipped for pre-marital sex. Most churches in North America would not have disfellowshipped them for these offenses. Yet we see the Latin American church far outgrowing the North American church. They do no hesitate to disfellowship and still grow at an incredible rate. One might conclude the Latin American church is more judgmental than the North American church.

[Neil D]

But Shane, what you are not taking into account is the growth of the individual...Paul says that when he was a child, he thought as a child...Education will tell you that there is concrete thinking and there is abstract thinking...Those in 3rd world countrys tend to do concrete thinking...that is not to say that those in Western countrys are all doing abstract thinking...And that is not to say that while we may have abstract thinkers, when it comes to religion, they are only able to do concrete thought processing...

Which is the superior thought process? Well, I am not an educator nor am I qualified to discuss it...I just know that there is a lot of concrete thinking in the Adventist Church and there is very little abstract thought processing...

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Those in 3rd world countries tend to do concrete thinking...

That is a stereotype. I have yet to see any studies that show evidence of it being true. I have read studies regarding it. Secular humanists claim the reason developing countries are so religious is because they are uneducated. In other words, they don't know any better. Religious groups claim it is not because of ignorance, rather because of poverty. Wealthy people are less likely to be religious. There have been studies trying to prove one theory over the other. However since poverty and lack of education run so close together, it is difficult to come to a conclusion one way or the other.

There have been studies, however, to see if a person's IQ level has any impact on whether or not they are religious. Those studies have shown that people with a higher IQ are slightly more likely to be atheist or agnostic than those with lower IQs. However that in itself doesn't prove developing countries are more religious because they are ignorant. The results of one study are not necessarily related to the results of another.

Christ did teach that we are to be like children if we are to enter into the kingdom of heaven. We must use our intellect wisely. If we cherish doubt, it will grow. If it grows enough, it becomes very difficult to ever embrace the faith again. That is one of the dangers of sending our children to public school. There doubt is sewn into them from a young age.

Our evangelism is beginning to recognize this. Programs like It Is Written and Voice of Prophecy are targeting more and more the secular mind. Creation evangelism may soon replace our Revelation Seminars. The Revelation seminars are targeted at people that believe in the Bible but don't understand Revelation. Such a seminar has little attraction to those that do not believe in the Bible. The topic of origins however, fascinates many intellectuals that do not believe in the Bible.

[Neil D]

Quote:

Those in 3rd world countries tend to do concrete thinking...

That is a stereotype. I have yet to see any studies that show evidence of it being true. I have read studies regarding it. Secular humanists claim the reason developing countries are so religious is because they are uneducated. In other words, they don't know any better. Religious groups claim it is not because of ignorance, rather because of poverty. Wealthy people are less likely to be religious. There have been studies trying to prove one theory over the other. However since poverty and lack of education run so close together, it is difficult to come to a conclusion one way or the other.

First off, it is not "a stereotype", Shane. It comes from practical ADVENTIST EDUCATIONAL LEADERS...and the best person to argue this with, is a man called Steve Case. He runs a ministry called " A piece of the pie ministry". He has written at least ONE book that I am aware of....

Second, it is not about how much education you have, directly. It IS about the PROCESSING OF INFORMATION and it's classification of it. The human thinking experience is such that it can be classified. Yes, the amount of education does influence the thinking process, and educators do lable the process. At the top of the educational thinking is something called ABSTRACT THINKING and just below it, CONCRETE thinking.

3rd, generally speaking, all teens reach concrete thinking levels...

4th, not all adults grow to abstract thinking...and up until about 5 years ago, it mystified Educators as to why this was so. And as I recall, it has nothing to do with IQ levels...

And as I understand it, Shane, you demonstrate the concrete thinking process.....It is not good nor is it bad...It just is...

And there is a lot of thinking on a concrete thinking within the Adventist Church. It is prevailant. It's emphasis is on behaviors, not on concepts; activity vs relationships....It is a part of the growing process because they have seen jumps from concrete thinking to abstract thinking at various ages....and not all abstract thinking happens in all areas of life....but once it has a 'toe-hold' in one, it will spread to other areas...and not always rapidly...

So, um....there is um...hope for you, yet Shane...

teehe

[Stan]

It all comes down to this..

We, as a Church, are not offering to fill the needs, wants and desires... of the unchurched etc etc

[Neil D]

It all comes down to this..

We, as a Church, are not offering to fill the needs, wants and desires... of the unchurched etc etc

I agree...that is why Art and drama within the church is so important, as it demonstrates and encourages abstract thinking...Problem is that it takes a lot of effort to get those things up and going..And as a church, we take short cuts to see results quickly....this is a "management problem' which tends to be concrete in thier thinking... See the problem?