Loma Linda Xmas Concert-A TICKETED Event.Thats good, right?

[delta]

Dear Adventists,

I don't know about you, but correct me if I'm wrong....Is it true that even in our own SDA churches... those holy Sanctuaries nowadays could easily become a secular-worldly type of business [the real hot business] in the name of "Praise and Worship" ?!

Some said that Loma Linda University church in Southern California-one of the largest Adventist churches in North America, on its annual Christmas CandleLight Concert, once again will bring a spectacular Christmas concert this year....Even though many of its own church members have been wisely reminding their pastors due to "tickets for sale" serious issue as well as "secular plus Evangelicals-oriented style, ornaments and decorations" in the sanctuary--especially during Christmas seasons.

Of course, nothing wrong with Christmas Concert. The biggest problem, the church members said, is that the concert will be held:

In the main church

On the Sabbath day, Dec 15, 2007 @ 04:00 PM & 06:30 PM

....so far so good, 'eh?.......But wait a minute!

What I heard, then, was that this should be a ticketed concert. You must not allowed to come closer to His presence through His church and to worship Him unless you buy a ticket. If you have 5 family members, then you need to buy another 5. And this is strickly a mandatory. That's simply the rule.

That what they said. An now I need some kindda solid confirmation if this is what happened for real...., if this is correct. Years ago, I was still so sceptical about this matter because I just don't believe it.

And then it came when the real shocking news-at least for Adventists-told us the facts. Since the concert is always in holiday season in decembers like today, the city of Loma linda-California, usually crowded of Adventist visitors and tourists from around the world. For those Adventist visitors, certainly Sabbath is the best time to spend-and also for reunioun-at some local SDA churches there with their old friends and families.

Now back to the annual ticketed Christmas Concert at LLU church.

Earlier, they (visitors) just took it for granted by just coming to that chuch for the Christmas concert. Without any anticipation of the need of buying a ticket in their mind....simply and naturally because they believe they are going a churh named Seventh-Day Adventists like any other SDA churches around the globe.

But guess what happened? Believe it or not, all of the visitors should shamefully turn their direction that used to go into the LLU church and must stay away since they didn't know that the concert need a ticket per person, and none is allowed to come inside the church if no ticket purchased like in football games.

Wasting-not saving-souls? What happened?

By the way, about last year or two years ago L.Linda University started their very busy homeworks for making other buildings and in reconstructing as well, and because of that they have a large number of construction workers. Since there is no construction work on Saturdays, it doesn't mean, however, that all workers should go home and come back on the next working day. In fact, many of them spend their day off (saturdays) by just stay there and hanging out in Loma Linda area.

Then it was happened. Last Christmas concert in the same church (LLUC), when some of the construction workers-most of them were non believers at all- just want to come to the church that Sabbath afternoon along with their buddies, the same story happened again..and again !!!

They took it for granted by just coming to that church.....but they didn't know that a not-so-affordable ticket must be purchased before they're allowed to come in.

And finally after some short conversations with the Church's Pastors there, they chose just about to leave the church and never come back.

"You know", some of the them said, "it's imposibble even if we have pretty long conversation or chit chat with their Adventist Pastors in that church, we still won't be able to see the concert anyway since not even one of the Pastors-yes, none of them-have attitude to help us to be able to see the Christmas concert. The Pastors just go strict with the rule: You must buy the ticket! Well, If the churh make the concert in a hotel or covention center, it would probably be the best place. Yet, since they make the concert inside the holy sanctuary in their own church, none of us anticipate that we need to buy....!"

Nothing unusual here, yes, if you see this scenario from profit-business perspective. Business is business! Unfortunately, this is a big tragedy since many strangers or unbelievers in which they innocently love to go to the church for the special moment--in fact always being kicked out even by the church leaders/pastors of LLUC since the visitors don't wanna deal with tickets.

By the way, the same tragedy could be happened again this coming Sabbath since many visitors usually come to this Adventist heritage area to spend their holiday with their 'innocent'attitude by coming to LLUC, and since the construction workers now are triple or more compared to last year.

In USA, they say, if you want to share about Jesus it would be probably very difficult since the people there are very secular christian and don't care about the Bible. But if you want to share Jesus through any Christmas events, it would probably be the golden opportunity since they open their hearts about Jesus but this should be expired when Christmas season is over.

Again my friends, I don't wanna ask if 10 of the church Pastors might get some sales commission. And no offense here! Yet, please share about this annual ticketed event that will be held inside the LLUC if this is true...along with the prices. How much is for one ticket? All price is the same or is there any distinction--like VIP tickets or just junk tickets on that Sabbath? Do they also sell tickets on that Sabbath for walk-in visitors? Does the LLUC once again would increase the singers or participants from Evangelical churches movement in that concert this year--or decrease it?...or probably eliminate it?

Thank you for sharing. Your infos would be greatly appreciated.

[Jeannieb43]

You're way off base here. The ticketing was begun about the time they had to start going to two concerts rather than just one, when the Christmas candlelight concert became such a hugely popular event that there would be no way of assuring people they'd have seats without using tickets.

The fact that there's a charge just goes to offset the cost of all the decorations, extra musicians and special instruments, etc., used for the concert.

Gimme a break here. Sounds like you're just looking for something to criticize. (Have you ever actually attended this wonderful concert?? You wouldn't be so critical if you'd actually been there.)

[Woody]

I really couldn't be bothered to read through and figure out this entire tirade. But the official SDA stand on tickets is that if you purchase them before the Sabbath hours ... then it is not breaking the Sabbath. All you are doing is handing them a slip of paper if you purchase it ahead of the Sabbath hours.

Sometimes such as my experience at Andrews this summer ... they will allow an Andrews credit card but not the worldly ones such as MasterCard or Visa ... during the Sabbath hours.

But you have to expect that there will be expenses. And in a big church ... there is no way to have room for everyone ... thus tickets.

Anyway ... the exchanging of money at churches is done each and every Sabbath. If you follow the early Adventists method of only giving offerings on Sunday according to scripture examples ... then you might not approve of handling money offerings on the Sabbath. But times change. We can't be stuck in EGW's time.

BTW. If you don't like the idea of tickets ... how about if you just don't buy one. I would hate to see you all worked up.

[delta]

Thank you for the responses.

Can you guarantee that 100% of the LLUC members may agree the idea about this ticketed event, that buying ticket is a mandatory?

How about some members whose already have gifts...yes, the gifts are the tickets for LLUC Christmas concert but they frankly, politely and openly said that "we don't wanna use the tickets nor give them to others since we must understand that the people who fill the Lord's sanctuary shall come from the ones whose invited, not merchandised. But now, nothing to do with "invitation" here since we must sell them a ticket."

Or how about some Medical Doctors there who said that they will be more than happy to give even more through offering plate in case the concert is open for everybody without a ticket...."but now my pastor ask me to buy...do you think I will? Well, I know that the concert is good for real. But sorry, I am no longer interested."

Please, don't jump into immediate conclusion that the Adventists whose not agree are fanatic and stupid and must be hated. And there is no issue there in LLUC if the church leaders would do such kindda ticketed concert somewhere else.

Ticketed event...why it should be in the church?====> That's the real biggest concern here--not about the concert itself nor about the sabbath.

[delta]

Another message that just came.....[but from another source]

...Keep in mind, the University church that should be in full capacity on each ticketed Christmas concerts including this year doesn't necessarily mean that the audiences are mostly church members. No, they're not.

You know that the promotion is almost everywhere or at least in other local SDA churhes. And that's what happened. Other SDA church members too are finally divided whether it is Biblical to use the sanctuary as a ticketed event--no matter how wonderful the Christmas events are.

============================message truncated====================================

[Gregory Matthews]

As this author seems to have trouble writting cogent sentences, I will suggest that the author is having fun at our expense.

[cricket]

Mr. Matthews, that was very unkind. Please don't jump to conclusions about the posts of another individual based on your evaluation of their ability to write.

Delta, I understand your concern is over whether or not an Adventist (indeed, any Christian) organization should charge at all for an opportunity to spread the gospel. In my opinon, the doors should always be open--regardless of ability to pay, or even the foresight to have to buy a ticket. The gospel of Jesus is open to all, and always will be--because G-d is in control.

Let us pray and remember those who would like to experience the beauty of harmony and melody this holiday season. Let us pray that they may find a church with open doors and open hearts that sing a new song unto the Lord!

[lazarus]

Sometimes such as my experience at Andrews this summer ... they will allow an Andrews credit card but not the worldly ones such as MasterCard or Visa ... during the Sabbath hours.

Tell me that's a joke Red.

[lazarus]

I was a Pastor in a large SDA church for a number of years where there was an annual Christmas concert sometimes with a full orchestra and choir. It was a beautifully produced and uplifting program.

There was never a charge because we simply felt that we did not want to exclude anyone who might want to experience the Christmas celebration. The concert was budgeted for and heavily subsidized by private donations.

I wouldn't condemn a church that would want to charge but that wouldn't be my approach especially taking a look at the way God sent his son into the world. I think God was sending a message to the poor and perhaps the rich.

[Woody]

Quote:

Ticketed event...why it should be in the church?====> That's the real biggest concern here--not about the concert itself nor about the sabbath.

The reason that it is ticketed is because the church decided it would be. In the SDA church ... each church is allowed to do as they please. If a simple majority of the members present at a particular meeting decide something ... then it is law. That is the LAW of our church organization. You can look it up in the Church Manual.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Sometimes such as my experience at Andrews this summer ... they will allow an Andrews credit card but not the worldly ones such as MasterCard or Visa ... during the Sabbath hours.

Tell me that's a joke Red.

NO JOKE LAZ ....

I wrote about this in July. I am sure it is in the archives.

Andrews will accept the Andrews Card on Sabbath but they will not accept Mastercard or Visa. I should have taken a photo of the sign and posted it here. It is worth a good laugh that only the church's blessed cards are accepted during the Sabbath hours.

For what it is worth ... the Andrews Card has the same magnetic strip as MasterCard and Visa. Go Figure.

[carolaa]

It is true that every church has a right to make these kinds of decisions.

However, personally, I have always strongly opposed charging people to attend church events, whether it is a concert or a social or whatever. The church should be about ministry and evangelism, period; it is not a club. Church events are where you invite your non-Adventist or non-Christian friends, and certainly THEY should not have to pay to attend; they are our guests, not our customers. And what about people who cannot afford the admission charge? They are left out. Not nice. Church events should be paid for from donations that can be collected beforehand (by special donations or as a budgeted item) and/or freewill at the event itself. If seating is a problem, then hand out free tickets (with preference going to non-members, as good hosts would do). I can't imagine any situation ever where it should be necessary to charge people to attend a church event. Those types of events are almost always self serving and not mission oriented. If a church can't find enough donations/volunteers to host an event, then maybe it needs to forget about the event and spend some time studying the mission of the church.

(Whenever I get on a soapbox like that, my friends will say, "So what do you really think?")

[Woody]

I am willing to put down my lunch money .... that this is a one time shot. They probably only do it for this Christmas program and at no other time.

Don't get me wrong ... I don't agree with charging for tickets. But, like I said ... the church can do what it thinks is best. We don't have all the info. Instead of complaining ... those who are members should attend the board meetings and make their concerns heard. Then once the decision is made ... the church should be united in supporting the effort.

I have had to go along with some very bad church decisions in my day. But I wanted to be there in a loving way to support those who were hurt by bad church decisions. That is all we can do.

Also .... can I ask .... how much was charged for the ticket. Since it is not Sabbath ... I hope you can tell me.

[Amelia]

Was Deltas concern simply the charging of entry fee or that the program being ticketed is being held in the Sanctuary? I can see charging a ticket for a program held in say, the gym but coming before God in His Sanctuary should be free.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

Mr. Matthews, that was very unkind. Please don't jump to conclusions about the posts of another individual based on your evaluation of their ability to write.

I did not make any evaulation based upon thier ability to write. Rather, I commented upon their product which is not ability.

We have individuals who come here in an attempt to have some fun at our expense. As such they may present themselves as what they are not.

Personally, I think that the individual upon whom I commented, has a better ability to write than was evidenced by the actual writing.

[David Koot]

NO JOKE LAZ ....

I wrote about this in July. I am sure it is in the archives.

Andrews will accept the Andrews Card on Sabbath but they will not accept Mastercard or Visa. I should have taken a photo of the sign and posted it here. It is worth a good laugh that only the church's blessed cards are accepted during the Sabbath hours.

For what it is worth ... the Andrews Card has the same magnetic strip as MasterCard and Visa. Go Figure.

Man, that is TOO much!

[Dottie]

About charging for the concert:

Every year, our family travels from Orlando to SAU for the Sabbath Easter program entitled, "Sonrise." It is a walk-through play in which the visitors travel all through campus and see the events on the last week of Christ's life. Tickets are required. The tickets become available the Monday before the program, and are usually all gone by Monday evening. There is no charge, and it is a major production, using several sets of characters.

There is a new "play" starting every twenty or thirty minutes from 8:00 in the morning until 1:30 or 2 in the afternoon. Each new group of visitors fills the sanctuary of Collegedale Church.

Again, let me say there is no charge. I always was taught that using the sanctuary as a place of business was wrong. Did I misunderstand something?

[Woody]

This is why I asked how much the tickets cost. I actually wonder if we are having a misunderstanding here. You know how gossip is. There actually may not have been any charge for the tickets. Still waiting for the answer as to how much the tickets cost.

[Woody]

Don't get us started on this CoAspen ... now they will make a call to join in with the early Adventists and not collect the offerings on Sabbath. They did it according to the scripture ... ON SUNDAY ... the first day of the week.

Currently it is OK to bring out the money from your wallet and place it in the offering plate ... but it is not OK to arrange ahead of time and pay the money for a ticket before the Sabbath hours.

I hear that some churches have credit card machines. That way ... you would not have to carry your wallet and all that cash on the Sabbath ... just a credit card.

[Amelia]

The church should never encourage debt!

[Woody]

The church should never encourage debt!

Use of credit cards do not mean that you are encouraging debt.

Use of credit cards is good stewardship. The company pays you to charge things so that they can make money. It is a win - win. It does take discipline for the card holder so that he does NOT go into debt. But that is the situation even with a checking account.

I've purchased many needed supplies with the points from credit cards. I think God wants us to be good stewards of our finances. And the use of a good Rewards Credit Card makes good sense and more cents than not.

[carolaa]

I think we have a tempest in a teapot here.

Churches take offerings for programs, they budget for programs, etc. Whether money changes hands for a ticket or as an offering, it is still the same. Are we trying to be as the ancient Jews and only walk a certain distance on the Sabbath or only carry certain items...etc....etc?

I disagree. Freewill offerings are not the same thing as charging people. When you charge people, there are going to be people who can't afford to attend. There are going to be people who want to bring their friends but think it's tacky to make them pay their way. Events like this are usually budgeted *ministries* -- which means their purpose is to minister to others, particularly those outside the church. People should not be charged to be ministered to. If they are, then we're acting less like a church and more like a business or a club.

[carolaa]

Originally Posted By: Amelia

The church should never encourage debt!

Use of credit cards do not mean that you are encouraging debt.

Use of credit cards is good stewardship. The company pays you to charge things so that they can make money. It is a win - win. It does take discipline for the card holder so that he does NOT go into debt. But that is the situation even with a checking account.

I've purchased many needed supplies with the points from credit cards. I think God wants us to be good stewards of our finances. And the use of a good Rewards Credit Card makes good sense.

I was almost ready to say the same thing; good thing I scrolled down first. I totally agree.

[carolaa]

The SDA church is at the low end of the scale in charging for programs. People of other churches expect to pay for services rendered. Christmas programs and of course the many singing/entertainment groups that make their living that way, are paid by the many other churches in our area. It seems SDA's expect most things for free...in many area's. Offering or tickets, still a choice.

Fail to see a issue in this matter.

Interesting you should bring that up, because just today I got a flyer in the mail inviting the community to a Christmas program by a local church (non-SDA) which is being given at no charge.

If we are "rendering services," then I guess we should charge people. But if we are "ministering," then we should serve all, regardless of their ability to pay, and we should encourage members to bring their friends. Some may see this as a nit-picky fine line, but the difference is really quite profound and has to do with the whole mindset of the church and whether we are busy serving ourselves or if we are serious about reaching the lost.

[carolaa]

Quote:

If we are "rendering services," then I guess we should charge people. But if we are "ministering," .....

I understand your concerns and that is indeed the question, rendering or ministering. That really will depend on how a church chooses to present the situation. Most of the paid Christian singing groups that I know of, consider themselves to be ministering, that is their desire and purpose. A church may wish to pay themselves or may not be able and do an admission price.

Some Conferences have evangelism funds available to help with these kinds of things if a church can show that the event is part of their outreach plans.