Handwringing, apologizing, and tea drinking

[Guest charis]

Is it just me, or does it seem to other members that there is an inordinate amount of hand-wringing and apologizing on the forum?

It occurs to me that one's thoughts, expressed on the forum, are fodder for someone out there in the cyberworld to be offended. IMO, there is no need to apologize for expressing the truth. There is ALWAYS the chance to write a response, be it good-natured, or kicking the *offender* . But for crying outloud, how can there be HONEST discussion if, for every other sentence, someone is out there crying FOUL and demanding an apology.

Of course there are times when an apology might be the kind thing to do, but it just seems like the tone of the forum (to me) has become so outrageously polite that it's .... well..... it's boring.

Some forums have rules where members do not attack other members, but they CAN attack ideas or theories with solid information or an alternative idea. However, if a member chooses to portray him/herself as some type of angelic guard over the scriptures and human behavior, and then chooses to become offended when someone not quite up to the angelic guard stage makes a comment, then demands an apology......well, that's just wrong. IN MY OPINION

In a way, the forum is becoming a place where one must drink his/her tea very properly:

Quote:

How to Drink Tea

The tea bowl can either be placed in front of the guest or may be placed in the room where the tea was prepared. If the room is small, the guest should not stand up but advance on his knees toward the host. He should also remember the original place where the bowl was stored, so as to return it to its proper place after drinking the tea.

Place the tea bowl outside the border of the tatami you are sitting on. If there is a guest who has been served before you, it is polite to say, "O shoban sasete itadaki masu," or "Please let me accompany you", And to the guest who has not yet been served, you should excuse yourself for drinking first.

You then turn to the host and address him with the words, "O temae o chodai itashimasu,", or "I'll partake of your tea."

Pick up the bowl with your right hand and place it on the palm of your left hand. Put the fingers and our right hand around it, with the thumb facing you, and make a small bow for politeness.

With the bowl still resting on the palm of your left hand, grasp the rim of the bowl with your forefinger and thumb and turn it about ninety degrees clockwise. Take a sip and then comment on how good it tastes, while dropping your right hand on the tatami before your knees.

Drink the remaining tea in small sips and when you come to the last sip, inhale deeply, making an audible sound and finish the tea.

After drinking, the rim of the bowl should be wiped lightly with tissue paper from left to right, as you hold the bowl between forefinger and thumb.

With the bowl still resting on your left palm, turn it counter-clockwise so that it returns to its original position before you drank from it. This is done with the thumb at the edge of the bowl and the other four fingers underneath it.

Place the bowl on the outside of the tatami border and, with your hands on the mat, gaze at the bowl to appreciate its shape. The bowl can be picked up with both hands to view it more closely.

Pick up the bowl and return it to the original position or to the host. The bowl should be turned twice in a 180 degree revolution so that the front of the bowl faces the host when you return it to him/her.

[olger]

Well... ... I'd say you're right about the handwringing Charis. Fortunately, most people are mature enough to handle life on the forums, and many cyber friendships result.

It helps not to take oneself too seriously.

oG

[Bravus]

Giving apologies without them being demanded is an entirely different thing.

[olger]

Giving apologies without them being demanded is an entirely different thing.

That's a fact Bravus. I am thoroughly amused whenever I see

"I DEMAND AN APOLOGY!!!!!!!!!"

:)

oG

[Woody]

I am also seeing people resigning to the fact that people are people and they can be a bull in a China closet and have no clue they need to apologize.

But you are right ... Demands of apologizes never work ... and it is sad that they have to be demanded .... just as it is sad that they are not given.

No matter who is at fault ... apologizes should be given freely among Christians. If someone told you that you hurt them ... would you not want to apologize? The matter of guilt aside. I actually know of no one here on CA that would intentially hurt another. But when it does happen it is sad that the demand has to be made instead of it being freely given.

It is a witness of sadness all the way around Personally I feel more sadness for someone who would have to resort to such a demand. There is obviously a lot of hurt. Do we support the one who is hurting .... or the way who gave the hurt?

[Woody]

Hate to spoil your tea party with this news .... but:

Quote:

"The practice of using liquor, tobacco, TEA, and coffee must be overcome by the converting power of God. There shall nothing enter into the kingdom of God that defileth."Ellen White MR Vol. 20 p. 6

If you have your tea party ... it might just be your last thing to crow about because you may be beyond help from Christians.

Quote:

"I saw that the stewards of the Lord have no duty to help those persons who persist in using tobacco, TEA, and coffee." Ellen White Testimonies, vol. 1, p. 224

[Woody]

We can use Celestial Seasonings tea, they have many with out any 'bad' things in them...a lot of leaves, grass, flowers and other such items. Will that get us by the 'committee'?

I will ask those who have nominated themselves as the official rebukers ... if that is acceptable. I honestly don't know. They are the final judicial authority of the land. But I am sure they have been informed of this situation already and will be telling you soon.

ROFL

[olger]

Hi CA. I'll drink some hot water with you to keep my pipes from freezing up.. .

How's things in Colorado? Skiiing yet?

oG

[Neil D]

Of course there are times when an apology might be the kind thing to do, but it just seems like the tone of the forum (to me) has become so outrageously polite that it's .... well..... it's boring.

[Planey]

Hi CA. I'll drink some hot water with you to keep my pipes from freezing up..

Well, maybe, but perhaps you should consider these words from "Ministry of Healing" (p. 305):

"Food should not be eaten very hot or very cold. If food is cold, the vital force of the stomach is drawn upon in order to warm it before digestion can take place. Cold drinks are injurious for the same reason; while the free use of hot drinks is debilitating."

There is truly nothing you can put into your system that someone will not be able to find an EGW quote to forbid it.

Graeme

[Woody]

I can't believe it Graeme ... A kindred spirit. You beat me to the punch. Someone who enjoys a little Ellen White humor. I love it. And I thought I was the only one who did such horrible deeds.

Just be prepared to be branded as a trouble maker and even worse.

Some might even tell you were you are going.

But please continue .... I enjoy a little fun. If we can't poke a little humor at ourselves ... then what hope do we have as a church. OK .... I know .... Ellen White speaks against humor. I can give you the quotes but will resist. I need to save it for another time. But no ... let me just give you a clue ....

It had something to do with Jesus and his behaviour on earth and the way he never opened his mouth in a certain way .... Oh just forget it.

[David Koot]

No matter who is at fault ... apologizes should be given freely among Christians. If someone told you that you hurt them ... would you not want to apologize?

Jesus said, "If your brother offend you, rebuke him: if he repents, forgive him." Evidently, it is the responsibility of the offended party to bring it to the attention of the one who has given offense. That certainly would appear to be Christian assertiveness. It is the responsibility of the one who has given offense to apologize--even if s/he does not feel that s/he has done any wrong. And that itself is another step in learning to understand others--empathy. That is, even if the person who has given offense doesn't understand 'why,' try to see it from the other party's point of view. A couple of things which are directly OPPOSITE to the teaching of Jesus: 1) Taking the attitude of, 'That's the way I am and you should learn to live with it.' 2) 'I have done nothing for which I need to apologize.' Both of those responses are self-centered rather than others-centered.

Dave

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

It is the responsibility of the one who has given offense to apologize--even if s/he does not feel that s/he has done any wrong.

Not always.

There are apologies that only deepen the wrong.

There are relationships that have become so broken that it is better not to have any contact with the person

I am reminded [true story, as I was present]: My ex-wife and I were leaving church one Sabbath morning when we were approached by one of the male members. He looked at my wife and said: I need to apologize to you for a wrong that I have done you.

She told him that she had no idea what he was talking about.

He replied: I have told some people that I consider you to be quite an ugly loooking person! I should not have said that about you. I am sorry.

Folks, that was an apology that never should have been made.

Yes, I swear that it happened, as I was there and heard it.

[David Koot]

Not always.

There are apologies that only deepen the wrong.

The example you gave is not on point, actually. Aside from that, as for opinions about physical attractiveness, those are often up to the individual. However, when a person says damaging things about someone else, that have the effect of destroying that other person's reputation, and potentially causing harm to his or her effectiveness, and when the one to whom the accusatory and misleading statements are made decides to take sides and does so in a public manner which is in fact defamatory--then, both the person making such damaging statements, and the one who has 'bought into' them and made it public, need to give heartfelt apologies for the wrongs they both have done.

I appreciate very much the efforts Redwood has been making to reach out to others with whom he may disagree, to seek conciliation, and to himself be a conciliator. That is a good example of the effect of the gospel upon a person's life. It is a good example for all of us to follow. Especially, those who claim to be ministers, chaplains, evangelists, etc. would do well to follow his example. A minister of the gospel should be a conciliator--and, on top of that, should not be one who, to use EGW's phrase, 'airs dirty laundry'--misleading and harmful gossip--to others. A minister, evangelist or chaplain should be someone who is 'for' everyone, and who thinks the best of all.

Dave

[annie]

This is very good discussion, can I further ask- In Matt.5:39 "But I say unto you, That you resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." It appears as you continue reading on that it is the Christian who is to be "long on mercy?" Would you agree? Perhaps the very idea of "dying for all" eliminates the right of anyone to claim "first rights" to an apology?

[Gregory Matthews]

Dave:

Your post sounds like you have specifics in mind, and are using the opportunity to state your position knowning that no one will rebut you.

[David Koot]

Dave:

Your post sounds like you have specifics in mind, and are using the opportunity to state your position knowning sic that no one will rebut you.

Please do stick to the issues, and keep things general. Avoid making personal accusations or insinuations.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

No matter who is at fault ... apologizes should be given freely among Christians. If someone told you that you hurt them ... would you not want to apologize?

Jesus said, "If your brother offend you, rebuke him: if he repents, forgive him." Evidently, it is the responsibility of the offended party to bring it to the attention of the one who has given offense. That certainly would appear to be Christian assertiveness. It is the responsibility of the one who has given offense to apologize--even if s/he does not feel that s/he has done any wrong. And that itself is another step in learning to understand others--empathy. That is, even if the person who has given offense doesn't understand 'why,' try to see it from the other party's point of view. A couple of things which are directly OPPOSITE to the teaching of Jesus: 1) Taking the attitude of, 'That's the way I am and you should learn to live with it.' 2) 'I have done nothing for which I need to apologize.' Both of those responses are self-centered rather than others-centered.

Dave

Dave ... you have done a good job of articulating what we as Christians need to learn to do. Thank you.

[Woody]

Quote:

It is the responsibility of the one who has given offense to apologize--even if s/he does not feel that s/he has done any wrong.

Not always.

There are apologies that only deepen the wrong.

There are relationships that have become so broken that it is better not to have any contact with the person

I am reminded [true story, as I was present]: My ex-wife and I were leaving church one Sabbath morning when we were approached by one of the male members. He looked at my wife and said: I need to apologize to you for a wrong that I have done you.

She told him that she had no idea what he was talking about.

He replied: I have told some people that I consider you to be quite an ugly loooking person! I should not have said that about you. I am sorry.

Folks, that was an apology that never should have been made.

Yes, I swear that it happened, as I was there and heard it.

I feel you are wrong about the idea that the apology should never have been made. Yes, the apology was made in the wrong way. But apologizes are always good if done correctly.

In this case specifics were not needed and not called for. The person receiving the apology did not need the apology because she did not know the offense and had not experienced hurt. It was mostly for the person who had done wrong. So, he should have just said that he had been impressed to make wrongs right that he had done to church members. And that he had done gossip regarding your wife of which he was now repentant of.

Even if asked ... there was no need to give details. But we all need to ask forgiveness and be sorry for the hurt we do ... intentional or nonintentional. The person who felt guilt needs it just as much as the person who was offended.

It might have eventually come around to your wife that he had spoken those words. Now ... if it does comes to her ... she can not be as hurt because the apology has been made.

It IS a responsibility that all parties have. We need to give the apologizes and we need to receive them.

[Taylor]

However, when a person says damaging things about someone else, that have the effect of destroying that other person's reputation, and potentially causing harm to his or her effectiveness, and when the one to whom the accusatory and misleading statements are made decides to take sides and does so in a public manner which is in fact defamatory--then, both the person making such damaging statements, and the one who has 'bought into' them and made it public, need to give heartfelt apologies for the wrongs they both have done.

I appreciate very much the efforts Redwood has been making to reach out to others with whom he may disagree, to seek conciliation, and to himself be a conciliator. That is a good example of the effect of the gospel upon a person's life. It is a good example for all of us to follow. Especially, those who claim to be ministers, chaplains, evangelists, etc. would do well to follow his example. A minister of the gospel should be a conciliator--and, on top of that, should not be one who, to use EGW's phrase, 'airs dirty laundry'--misleading and harmful gossip--to others. A minister, evangelist or chaplain should be someone who is 'for' everyone, and who thinks the best of all.

Dave

Amen David!! Thanks so much for this post! We need to be in the business of building people up not tearing them down ever. I love this quote that says “Treat a man as he appears to be and you make him worse. But treat a man as if he already were what he potentially could be, and you make him what he should be.” Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe

[Woody]

Quote:

A minister of the gospel should be a conciliator--and, on top of that, should not be one who, to use EGW's phrase, 'airs dirty laundry'--misleading and harmful gossip--to others. A minister, evangelist or chaplain should be someone who is 'for' everyone, and who thinks the best of all.

I don't know what you are referring to Dave ... I am sure there are abuses with our ministers etc. The sexual abuse with the Catholic priests is one example. But, I think that as far as gossip among these professions ... I would think that the confidentiality in these professions would protect us from a lot of what you have described. But again I would guess that some are not so professional.

Gossip does have a very powerful effect and hurt on the church and all of us. The person who is talked about ... even if it is just about "looks" is very harmed and apologizes need to be made so the past can be put in the past.

I appreciate the discussion of this important topic.

[Bravus]

I think taking responsibility for our own emotions and reactions is important. A former First Lady in the US (Lady Bird Johnson? Can't remember) said 'No-one can make us feel inferior without our permission' (or words to that effect). No-one's forum posting can make me feel bad unless I choose to let it.

Now that doesn't give everyone open license to try! Of course people should try to post in ways that build up and not put down. But demanding that they apologise just seems to me like misdirected effort. They will either see that they have done wrong and move to make it right, or they won't, and given human nature they are more likely to be entrenched in their position and seek to defend it than to open up if they feel attacked.

So, once again, the most productive focus is (a) on Jesus and emulating his character through the Spirit's power and ( on our own actions. Seeking to control others is futile, but if each of us controls him/herself it won't be necessary.

[Woody]

Quote:

Perhaps the very idea of "dying for all" eliminates the right of anyone to claim "first rights" to an apology?

Did you want my personal opinion? It has nothing to do with "rights". Both people NEED it. It is a NEED ... and a command of God. Yet, sometimes we need to be reminded of getting so blessed by following God's command.

It is a "responsibility" and privilege. It is also a blessing for both the giver and the receiver. It has NOTHING to do with "rights". That is just an excuse by those who don't like doing what needs to be done.

[Jeannieb43]

A former First Lady in the US (Lady Bird Johnson? Can't remember) said 'No-one can make us feel inferior without our permission' (or words to that effect). No-one's forum posting can make me feel bad unless I choose to let it.

I think it was Eleanor Roosevelt who said that, Bravus. The way I heard it was "No one can make you feel inferior without your cooperation."

--the same idea, of course.

[David Koot]

I think taking responsibility for our own emotions and reactions is important . . . No-one's forum posting can make me feel bad unless I choose to let it.