Message from Ellen White - the second coming

[Neil D]

references please!!!!!!

[Bravus]

It worries me a bit when we have this very precise, detailed list of things that we believe have to happen before Jesus can return. How does that jibe with 'no man knows the day or the hour'?

[Taylor]

I think the key is that the final events could be very quick and unexpected in their timing. I also think that, should God choose, he could continue to wait even though there are only one or two "signs" left to be fulfilled. I think that He is coming soon, because unless he continues to "hold the winds of strife" this world will self-implode in wars if the worst kind. The tensions around the world, politically, socially, and religiously are a powder keg. But he has delayed his coming and when we get to heaven we will be able to see the "behind the scenes" reasons for everything.

[Woody]

references please!!!!!!

The following is from ""The Retirement Years" p. 161 - 163 you can review the entire vision but I will post some highlights ...

"A few days since, I was pleading with the Lord for light in regard to my duty. (Asking the Lord for guidance) In the night I dreamed" ... (A vision) ....

"...I saw you die; I saw you buried. Has the Lord pitied me and let you COME BACK ...?" (Here she thinks that he has come back from the dead to instruct her.) ( And she goes on to accept his instructions)

She describes him as "He was very pale, but calm and composed." (Being dead does cause one to be pale)

She says "I am so happy to have you by my side once more! I have felt that half of me was gone."

At one point James predicts the future for Ellen,

"...Now, Ellen, calls will be made as they have been, desiring you to attend important meetings...".

James, who is dead, goes on to tell her she must avoid taxing her strength going to meetings and retire and WRITE instead. He tells her "...Make this your first business". (Ellen agrees to do as her dead husband has instructed ...)

Ellen now makes an agreement with her dead husband to stay in touch,

"Well, said I, James you are always to stay with me now and we will work together".

This would involve further communication with the dead. Ellen recounts that she then awoke and took the whole matter as being FROM the LORD in these words,

"...I feel no duty to go to Battle Creek...I have no duty to stand in General Conference. THE "LORD" FORBIDS ME. That is enough."

Below is an unedited clip of her "conversation with her dead husband" but you can check out the entire dialogue for yourself.

" "Well," said I, "James, you are always to stay with me now and we will work together." Said he, "I stayed in Battle Creek too long. I ought to have gone to California more than one year ago. But I wanted to help the work and institutions at Battle Creek. I have made a mistake. Your heart is tender. You will be inclined to make the same mistakes I have made. Your life can be of use to the cause of God. Oh, those precious subjects the Lord would have had me bring before the people, precious jewels of light!"

"I awoke. But this dream seemed so real. Now you can see and understand why I feel no duty to go to Battle Creek for the purpose of shouldering the responsibilities in General Conference. I have no duty to stand in General Conference. The Lord forbids me. That is enough." -- Letter 17, 1881. RY 163

I am just posting some highlights here. But you can check it all out in the book .... "The Retirement Years" p. 161 - 163.

Please people ... All this does is point out that she is not "infallible". We can still very much enjoy all the wonderful words that she has for us. It was just that her faith and understanding of scripture was not complete at that point of her life. Who does have complete knowledge? Always compare with scripture.

[Nightingale]

"A few days since [i.e., after the death of her husband James], I was pleading with the Lord for light in regard to my duty. In the night I dreamed I was in the carriage, driving, sitting at the right hand. Father was in the carriage, seated at my left hand. He was very pale, but calm and composed. 'Why Father,' I exclaimed, 'I am so happy to have you by my side once more! I have felt that half of me was gone. Father, I saw you die; I saw you buried. Has the Lord pitied me and let you come back to me again, and we work together as we used to?'

"He looked very sad. He said,'The Lord knows what is best for you and for me. My work as very dear to me. We made a mistake. We have responded to urgent invitations of our brethren to attend important meetings. We had not the heart to refuse. These meetings have worn us both ore than we were aware. Our good brethren were gratified, but they did not realize that in these meetings we took upon us greater burdens than at our age we could safely carry. They will never know the result of this long-continued strain upon us. God would have had them bear the burdens we have carried for years. Our nervous energies have been continuously taxed, and then our brethren misjudging our motives and not realizing our burdens have weakened the action of the heart. I have ade istakes, the greatest of which was in allowing my sympathies for the people of God to lead me to take work upon me which others should have borne.

"' Now, Ellen, calls will be made as they have been, desiring you to attend important meetings, as has been the case in the past. But lay this matter before God and make no response to the most earnest invitations. Your life hangs as it were upon a thread. You must have quiet rest, freedom from all excitement and from all disagreeable cares. We might have done a great deal for years with our pens, on subjects the people need that we have had light upon and can present before them, which others do not have. Thus you can work when your strength returns, as it will, and you can do far more with your pen than with your voice.'

"He looked at me appealingly and said, 'You will not neglect these cautions, will you, Ellen? Our people will never know under what infirmities we have labored to serve them because our lives were interwoven with the progress of the work, but God knows it all. I regret that I have felt so deeply and labored unreasonably in emergencies, regardless of the laws of life and health. The Lord did not require us to carry so heavey burdens and many of our brethren so few. We ought to have gone to the Pacific Coast before, and devoted our time and energies to writing. Will you do this now? Will you, as your strength returns, take your pen and write out these things we have so long anticipated, and ake haste slowly? There is important matter which the people need. Make this your first business. You will have to speak some to the people, but shun the responsibilities which have borne us down.'

"'Well,' said I, 'James, you are always to stay with me now and we will work together.' Said he, 'I stayed in Battle Creek too long. I ought to have gone to California more than one year ago. But I wanted to help the work and institutions at Battle Creek. I have made a mistake. Your heart is tender. You will be incluned to make the same mistakes I have made. Your life can be of use to the cause of God. Oh, those precious subjects the Lord would have had me bring before the people, precious jewels of light.'

"I awoke. But this dream seemed so real. Now you can see and understand why I feel no duty to go to Battle Creek for the purpose of shouldering the responsibilities in General Conference. The Lord forbids me. That is enough." Letter 17, 1881.

This was published by the Review and Herald publishing Association and under the direction of the board of trustees of the Ellen G. White Estate.

It was a dream, and nothing she said here contradicts what she had written up this time and those things she wrote later about death. James was dead and in the grave resting in Jesus, just as Lazarus was before Christ resurrected him.

There is absolutely nothing to show that this dream caused her to believe that the dead are alive or able to communicate with the living. For an understanding of what Ellen White believed about the nature of man in death, please refer to Ellen White's statements in the book, Great Controversy, which she wrote only a few years after James White's death. Ellen White held this Biblical view consistently throughout her life.

[Neil D]

Nightingale, I tend to agree with you...

It is emphasised as a dream. I am sure EGW knew the state of the dead and she says so in the dream that James is dead. But she also says that he "came back" so that they could work together. This is a reference to a resurrection before the coming of the Lord, which I believe, not too many know about. Plus, the fact that James corrects her, and tells her aabout when to accept invitations from conferences tells more about her health, than the state of the dead.

and in a sense, you are correct in that it also talks about her frailties as a human rather than a devine prophet.

[Woody]

Quote:

it also talks about her frailties as a human rather than a devine prophet.

Yes Neil. I think you are right. This is the point that we can take from it.

[Nightingale]

Quote:

it also talks about her frailties as a human rather than a devine prophet.

Yes Neil. I think you are right. This is the point that we can take from it.

Hey Redwood,

If we take Ellen White's description of that dream in context and as she wrote it, I don't see any part of it that we can't accept as true. As Neil points out, Ellen White's reference to James' "coming back to be with her as before," refers to James being brought back to life, not to his visiting her as a spirit. On pp. 164, 165 of the same book where the dream is found, Ellen White wrote: "After my husband died, one of our brethren, who thought a great deal of him, said, 'Do not let them bury him, but pray to the Lord that He may bring him to life again.' I said, 'No, no, although I realize my great loss, I will not do this.' I felt that he had done his work. No one but myself knew how great a load he had carried in the efforts we had put forth to advance the truth. He had done the work of three men...Would I have him suffer all this over again? No, no. I would in no case call him from his restful sleep to a life of toil and pain. He will rest until the morning of the resurrection."

I don't see any part of Ellen White's dream AS SHE INTENDED IT TO BE UNDERSTOOD that we can't believe. The lesson we are to take away from it is not that the dead are actually alive and able to communicate with the living, but rather that God answered her prayer for light in regard to her duty shortly after the death of her husband. As a result of that dream, Ellen White determined to learn a lesson from James' experience of shouldering too much responsibility.

[Woody]

As with all of Ellen White's works ... we can do any number of mental gymnastics to maintain that all of her thoughts were without error and thereby maintain her infallibility mystic. And that is fine with me. I do not seek to change your personal belief in her.

Personally I don't believe IN HER. I believe God through the bible and anything or person that will point me to HIM is fine as far as that goes. But I compare all and each to the source of Truth.

I see this quote as a good reminder of how we all can be tempted to believe what we want ... ERROR. Praise God that she was able to be tempted ... believe ... and then turn from error. She was human and that IS a good lesson.

[Amelia]

It's the churches fault that she was elevated, not Ellens. She never wanted people to believe in her over the bible. Believe her words or not. I don't think it makes a person any less an Adventist.

[Neil D]

As with all of Ellen White's works ... we can do any number of mental gymnastics to maintain that all of her thoughts were without error and thereby maintain her infallibility mystic. And that is fine with me. I do not seek to change your personal belief in her.

Um..I really don't think that it is mental gymnastics...but rather consistancy....I really don't see this as violating her beliefs....nor ours....

[Nightingale]

I agree with you, Neil. I don't see anything in that dream or in Ellen White's description of it that we can't accept or that violates our beliefs.

I don't believe that Ellen White's "thoughts were all without error" or that she was infallible.

[Woody]

Quote:

I don't believe that Ellen White's "thoughts were all without error" or that she was infallible.

Would you be willing to share some of her belief and thoughts that we not correct in your understanding?

[Nightingale]

Quote:

I don't believe that Ellen White's "thoughts were all without error" or that she was infallible.

Would you be willing to share some of her belief and thoughts that we not correct in your understanding?

There was a time when Ellen White believed that the Sabbath was unimportant. She also believed that Christ was coming on October 22 of 1844 and that the door of mercy to the world was shut. She believed that pork was good food and she didn't know that tobacco was unhealthy.

We know her thoughts only insofar as she wrote them down in diaries, personal letters, testimonies, or articles, etc. Of course we also know of conversations, as well as talks and sermons, which were reported, often in short-hand. Her diaries, letters to her children, and conversations show that Ellen White had ordinary human thoughts and feelings.

[Woody]

That's good to hear. Some people actually believe that everything she said that is published is direct from God.

[Nightingale]

Personally, I see a distinction between her private letters and diaries, and those things she said God showed her in vision and inspired her to write for the church or for individuals, such as the Conflict Series and the Testimonies, etc. I'm sure it would be the same if we found Paul's or Peter's personal letters or diary.

They'd be wonderful to have, of course, but I'm confident we would see right away that not everything they thought was without error, and I suspect their diaries and private letters would also show that not everything they said or wrote was direct from God.

[Woody]

Boy ... Am I with you on all that ... I think there should be a distinction.

[jasd]

Welcome aboard simone cox,

Quote:

Quote:Simone

Simone: The 'holy city' that you saw in vision, that was actually a starship?

Ellen: Yes.

Well, yumpin’ yiminy!

http://www.rense.com/general79/wdx1.htm

Mebbe – they’s not all o’ ours? mebbe, a few of whom Matthew 24:26 references, “Behold, he is in the desert ... in the secret chambers” here, there..., are presently -- parked in orbit!?

Xmas? okay. (brings to mind...

“According to the Alaska Department of Fish and Game, while both male and female reindeer grow antlers in the summer each year, male reindeer drop their antlers at the beginning of winter, usually late November to mid-December. Female reindeer retain their antlers till after they give birth in the spring. Therefore, according to EVERY historical rendition depicting Santa's reindeer, EVERY single one of them, from Rudolph to Blitzen, had to be a girl.

We should've known... ONLY women would be able to drag a fat man in a red velvet suit all around the world in one night and not get lost.”

Speaking of ‘mebbes’ – now..., the lead post, this thread, depicts a monosyllabic EGW: ya think?

{no disrespect intended to the thread – just my weird synapses misfiring on too much salt in the system})

[Neil D]

Quote:

“According to the Alaska Department of Fish and Game, while both male and female reindeer grow antlers in the summer each year, male reindeer drop their antlers at the beginning of winter, usually late November to mid-December. Female reindeer retain their antlers till after they give birth in the spring. Therefore, according to EVERY historical rendition depicting Santa's reindeer, EVERY single one of them, from Rudolph to Blitzen, had to be a girl.

We should've known... ONLY women would be able to drag a fat man in a red velvet suit all around the world in one night and not get lost.”

Priceless!!!!!!

[jasd]

>>Priceless!!!!!!<<

Ain't it, though? ;-)

[jasd]

Speaking of orbits and such...:

“Stability appears to have been attained during the last near pass-by in 701 B.C.,

...

Oddly enough, corroboration for this remarkable conjecture can be found in the writings of Jonathan Swift, in his famous fantasy known as Gulliver's Travels. In his third voyage, Gulliver visits the land of Laputa, where the astronomers brag that they know all about the two moons of Mars. Their highly detailed description includes the size, the rotation, and the revolutions of each of the two moons.

What makes this particular allusion so provocative is that the two moons of Mars were not discovered by astronomers until 151 years after the publication of Gulliver's Travels in 1726. It was in 1877 that Asaph Hall, using a new telescope at the US Naval Observatory, shocked the astronomical world by discovering the two moons of Mars.”

What makes the two moons so difficult to see is that they are relatively small in diameter and have an albedo (reflectivity) of only 3 percent. They are the darkest objects in the solar system, almost black. The two moons are also unique in their rotations. For Swift to have "guessed" these correctly is absurd.

Yet the telescopes of his day were inadequate to have actually seen these objects. But then how could he have known what the astronomers of his day did not? Swift, in order to embroider his satirical fiction, undoubtedly drew upon ancient records (Homer and Virgil were among those who wrote about what they called the two "Steeds of Mars"). He probably assumed they were simply legends, not realizing that they were actually eye witness accounts of ancient sightings when Mars was close enough for the two moons of Mars to be viewed with the naked eye!”

Wow! near-passbys. [/gulp]

That entails such minutiae as:

meteors, unimaginable electrical discharges, tidal forces – initiating Continental plate movements, and, of course, tidal flows. That would still not be taking into consideration

evolutionary impact (and perhaps, species transfer – from Mars to earth {mebbe, in scale, such as the Cambrian explosion?}). [/say what!]

[jasd]

Prophets, greater or lesser... distinctions? Ah dunno.

Seems tah be a matter deserving more than 'degrees of separation' definitions.

The above is not meant aspersively, but ain't wrong wrong and ain't right right?

Inventive parsing regards 'prophet(s) of Gd' would seem to contribute to a breakdown in clear Biblical prescriptives and perspectives.

Perhaps, we ought to just leave it be with the words of the lady herself, that is, the self-descriptive 'greater than a prophet', which lends to itself -- a certain numinosity.

Anyway, one must admit that her writings (with few asides) are poetic, lyrical, and very rewarding.