opinions despite loyalty to God

[Guest truthseeker007]

I was actually wondering what you think of the fact that somebody in the Old Testament who gathered sticks on the Sabbath day had to be stoned. I am not a machine so my opinion will be a fair one: I think he should get another chance of rehabilitation or in the worst case been removed from Israel but certainly not killed. I can t help wondering sometimes whether God is truly righteous in general or only righteous for the ones that he chooses in order to glorify himself. After all, we were created for his glory, says the bible. I hope God isn t angry with me because of my thoughts. I cannot help it, otherwise he should make machines and not humans with a capacity to choose. Hope u guys can give me a little help on this matter.

[Woody]

Truth ... you always have such good questions.

I think God knows our heart. And I trust His judgment.

It is not the act of breaking the Sabbath that is the issue here ... or we would all die.

This was an example. And that is all. We do not know what was in the heart of this person. But I suspect it was rebellion and SELF ... a rejection of God. That is what God is opposed to.

I trust my God though and do not spend much time thinking about this example.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

I was actually wondering what you think of the fact that somebody in the Old Testament who gathered sticks on the Sabbath day had to be stoned.

This was a law but if you read you will not find that much of that took place. A lot of the laws given to the Children of Israel (CoI) when God had just called them to be His people. God had a plan and they agreed and said all that you say we will do. He delivered them and they entered into a covenant with Him.

When the new covanent was initiated two people dropped dead for a simple lie. The point is this, at the begining of something that God does He makes all aware that He is serious and will not play around. Not that He's waiting to come down on us but He must do as He said. The reason He made such laws is so He could have a distinct people to reveal to the world what He was like and to introduce the Savior of the world, to the world.

Also, if I tell someone not to go into a certain part of town or they will get shot and they go anyway, who's fault is that if they get shot? Not mine, but theirs. Like wise if God says don't do that or you'll die and you do it, who's fault is it if you die? Not God's but yours.

God told Adam and Eve not to eat of a certain tree or they'd die and they ate anyway and they did die spiritually and eventually physically. But praise God that He promised a way for them to be redeemed.

In the OT for some people certain offences were not forgiven. It doesn't seem to be a matter of who it is but what time these offences take place. Usually at the beginning of a ministry (bears killed children who mocked Elisha) or when God starts a movement. I am sure there are other times that God permits Satan to destroy some who have rejected Him to the point where they have damaged their ability to respond to Him and have become extremely vile. There are somethings I know nothing about, but I don't know that I can trust God because He died for me so that I can and whosoever will, be with Him for all eternity.

[Guest truthseeker007]

Ok thank you guys for the answers. Sorry for such questions but i still believe these are relevant questions that need an answer when you want to spread the gospel and you have to face the criticism of the atheists. I geuss i watched too much "God Delusion" from Dawkins on youtube. He calls God terrible things and refers to orders of God to kill even women and children. However if the context justifies the means, i geuss that it s God s policy that it is better that a few should die, than that all should perish or die. I think this is strange because I ve always thought that someway God would think of every individual at the same time. I geuss that I think too much in black and white. Anyway thanks for the answers.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Quote:

Sorry for such questions but i still believe these are relevant questions that need an answer when you want to spread the gospel and you have to face the criticism of the atheists.

Uh...why are you watching those video clips of "God Delusion" on You Tube? I'm not condemning you - Just curious.....the questions you are asking are the mantras of pagans and atheist alike when it comes to talking about the Christian God. They like to corner Christians and ask questions for which there are no answers, such as the classic: "If God can do anything (omnipotence), can He make a stone He cannot lift?"

Oh, and atheists shouldn't even be concerned about what God did or did not do in the OT or NT, since they - the atheists - don't believe God exists anyway. Kind of a moot topic, imho.

Quote:

It is as impossible for man to demonstrate the existence of God as it would be for even Sherlock Holmes to demonstrate the existence of Arthur Conan Doyle.

-Frederick Buechner

[D. Allan]

Don't let fear of an angry God smother your mind. God is love. IMHO the example of the sticks just goes to prove that God did not write nor inspire that rule. Moses, if you ask me is more likely to have been a witch than a 'man of God.' Stick with the New Testament, (but throw out 'Revelations.' ) You'll be closer to God going that route.

[Guest truthseeker007]

"why are you watching those video clips of "God Delusion" on You Tube?"

I don t want to be a cognitive dissonance reduction believer. That means that i am open to all sorts of points of view. I had to see what Dawkins said because of his fame. He is one of the most powerfull evolutionists/atheists in the field of science. He has lots of good points but unfortunately comes to the wrong conclusion. He equals Christianity with the Catholic churches and fallen protestant churches. I don t understand why people think he is so great because he lacks evidence and logical reason from an adventist point of view. But you guys are right that I should focus more on the Gospel and people like Walter Veith, Shawn Boonstra, Doug Batchelor etc..

[Gerr]

Ok thank you guys for the answers. Sorry for such questions but i still believe these are relevant questions that need an answer when you want to spread the gospel and you have to face the criticism of the atheists. I geuss i watched too much "God Delusion" from Dawkins on youtube. He calls God terrible things and refers to orders of God to kill even women and children. However if the context justifies the means, i geuss that it s God s policy that it is better that a few should die, than that all should perish or die. I think this is strange because I ve always thought that someway God would think of every individual at the same time. I geuss that I think too much in black and white. Anyway thanks for the answers.

There are many things I don't understand about God or His plans, but I know enough about Him now that I can trust Him enough to wait for the answers when I see Him. So the bottom line is: do I take Him at His word or not that:

"He is the Rock, His work is perfect;

For all His ways are justice,

A God of truth and without injustice;

Righteous and upright is He"? DT 32:4

Even when I don't know all the answers?

Gerry

[cardw]

Christopher Hitchens has done a good job of laying down some questions that need to be addressed in regards to religion.

Sam Harris does not deny spiritual experience and is not as strident publicly, but has some powerful things to say from a slightly different approach.

You can see a summary of his presentations here

Sam Harris Video

I would invite you to consider his views as well.

[Amelia]

I'm curious.

If there are high profile authors of atheism and many people claiming they are atheists; does that make atheism a religion?

[cardw]

Quote:

If there are high profile authors of atheism and many people claiming they are atheists; does that make atheism a religion?

"A religion is a set of common beliefs and practices generally held by a group of people, often codified as prayer, ritual, and religious law. Religion also encompasses ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and mystic experience. The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction." Wikipedia

There is only one "rule," and that is the rule of the definition of "atheism" - not having any belief in any gods. Other than that, atheists are free to do whatever they want and still be called atheists. An atheist can do and believe absolutely anything beyond gods and still fit the definition. Quite the opposite of how "rules" are treated in a religion.

Calling atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.

[D. Allan]

What would you call a person who does not believe in the God of conventional religion, does not think the Bible is the 'word' of God, but holds open the possibility that God exists in some manner, perhaps as an indefinable entity as much the creation of the mind as the mind is a creation of it? This is a necessariliy nebulous description ...

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

What would you call a person who does not believe in the God of conventional religion, does not think the Bible is the 'word' of God, but holds open the possibility that God exists in some manner, perhaps as an indefinable entity as much the creation of the mind as the mind is a creation of it? This is a necessariliy nebulous description ...

welcome to the wonderful world of paganism

[Guest truthseeker007]

haha rudywoofs said nearly exactly what i was thinking. I would call it deception;)

[cardw]

Quote:

What would you call a person who does not believe in the God of conventional religion, does not think the Bible is the 'word' of God, but holds open the possibility that God exists in some manner, perhaps as an indefinable entity as much the creation of the mind as the mind is a creation of it? This is a necessariliy nebulous description ...

I'm taking this as a serious question. There are a few possible groups that may fit this particular description.

Liberal Protestant - This would be those like Bishop John Shelby Spong

Unitarian Universalist

And simply Theist.

As a side not Bishop Spong sent this out from a Priest who was choosing to leave the Church of England because of conscience.

Quote:

LEAVING HOME

I'm off!

I must leave the political and ethical compromises that have corrupted the faith of my Jesus.

I must leave the stifling theology, the patriarchal structures.

I must leave the enduring prejudices based on our God-given humanity, the colour of my skin, my gender or how my sexual orientation is practiced.

I must leave the mentality that encourages anyone to think that our doctrines are unchangeable.

I must leave the belief of those who insist that our sacred texts are without error.

I must leave the God of miracle and magic.

I must leave the promises of certainty, the illusion of possessing the true faith.

I must leave behind the claims of being the recipient of an unchallengeable revelation.

I must leave the neurotic religious desire to know that I am right, and to play at being God.

I must leave the claim that every other pathway to God is second-rate, that fellow Hindu searchers in India, Buddhists in China and Tibet, Muslims in the Middle East and the Jews of Israel are inadequate.

I must leave the pathway that tells me that all other directions will get me lost.

I must leave the certain claim that my Jesus is the only way to God for everyone.

I must leave the ultimate act of human folly that says it is.

I must leave the Church, my home.

I must leave behind my familiar creeds and faith-symbols.

I can no longer stay in an unliveable place.

I must move to a place where I can once again sing the Lord's song.

I must move to where my faith-tradition can be revived and live on.

I must move to a place where children don't tell me what I believe is unbelievable but tell me they can believe what I believe.

I must move to a place where they are not playing at moving the deck chairs on the decks of an ecclesiastical Titanic.

I can never leave the God experience.

I can never walk away from the doorway into the divine that I believe I have found in the one I call the Christ and acknowledge as "my Lord."

I must move to dangerous and religiously threatening places.

I must move to where there is no theism, but still God.

I'm off! But to where, God only knows.

David Keighley, An English Anglican Priest

[LifeHiscost]

Don't let fear of an angry God smother your mind. God is love. IMHO the example of the sticks just goes to prove that God did not write nor inspire that rule. Moses, if you ask me is more likely to have been a witch than a 'man of God.' Stick with the New Testament, (but throw out 'Revelations.' ) You'll be closer to God going that route.

If we throw out all from the Holy Scripture that we don't think to reveal the God of the Scripture, then we make God in our image instead of letting the Scripture reveal the image of God.

Are we suppose to change the Word of God to fit our narrow conception of His creation, or are we to let it(the Word) change us to the point where the Word reveals His love.

"But He answered and said, "It is written, ' MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.'" Matthew 4:4 NASB

Enphasis theirs LHC

Regards!

[carolaa]

Usually at the beginning of a ministry (bears killed children who mocked Elisha) or when God starts a movement.

That's a really interesting point I hadn't thought of before. Thanks.

[carolaa]

IMHO the example of the sticks just goes to prove that God did not write nor inspire that rule. Moses, if you ask me is more likely to have been a witch than a 'man of God.' Stick with the New Testament

hs Say what?!!

[David Koot]

My dear carolaa . . . I understand your surprise. We simply recognize that not everyone believes in the inerrancy or Divine inspiration of all Scripture. I do, and I have not the slightest doubt but that God Himself did give the Mosaic law to Moses, for His people. It is called the Mosaic law because Moses wrote it, but he wrote what God gave him in the mount. The fact that we do not understand some features of that law, certainly does not take away from its inspiration or its validity. We simply were not there, and we do not see all that God saw at the time. At the same time, if a person is looking for reasons to doubt or dispute such, God has given lots of freedom and room for one to do so.

Dave

[Stan]

Richard

Would be interested on your thoughts on this..

http://lifedevelopment.ca/

Honest ones, PM me if you want...

[carolaa]

I can accept that people don't believe in the inerrancy of all scripture. But to call Moses a witch!? So, why is Moses in heaven now? Moses visited with Jesus at the transfiguration - in the NEW Testament. Is that a serious post? I can't even wrap my head around that one.

[David Koot]

Part of the experience of being exposed to different belief systems. It can be quite interesting. In a given day, I may listen empathetically to everyone from an agnostic to an evangelical to an atheist to, in today's case, someone who buys into the 'Ouraneia' stuff. And much more. I have learned to listen with interest, and try to understand where a person is coming from. Although I must confess, this is the first time I have heard it suggested that Moses was a witch. I should like to hold some discourse with my esteemed online friend, D'Allan, in that regard.

Dave

[cardw]

Quote:

The fact that we do not understand some features of that law, certainly does not take away from its inspiration or its validity. We simply were not there, and we do not see all that God saw at the time. At the same time, if a person is looking for reasons to doubt or dispute such, God has given lots of freedom and room for one to do so.

The real question is do we have a reason to believe?

[cardw]

Quote:

Richard

Would be interested on your thoughts on this..

http://lifedevelopment.ca/

Honest ones, PM me if you want...

It is a well done site and the questions are certainly worth asking. Discussions on forgiveness, love, peace, and rest are very positive solutions for many of life's pains and can generate very practical solutions.

I think the weakness of the site is the God answer is implied through the fear of death, the fear of no meaning in life, and the idea that only God has the solution to fairness and justice because they are complex.

I think Christians could enter into the larger philosophical dialog if they would come with the idea that the search for truth was the first priority. So often the dialog has behind it the intent to convert all others to a truth that is already assumed. This is quite evident on this site.

We are in a unique situation in the country. Other traditions like Buddhism and Hinduism have become blended with Western sensitivities and have produced new forms of these traditions that have discovered deep insights into life and its meaning unique to these blends. One good example of this is the book called "The Zen Teachings of Jesus" by Christian writer Kenneth Leong. It becomes quite evident that the philosophy of Jesus has deep roots in Eastern philosophy that elude our western assumptions.

I want to make it clear that I am not a Buddhist or a Christian, but I can understand the gifts that each of these traditions have brought to the table. I have learned to enter into the assumptions of different traditions to understand what draws people to these different ways of believing.

What I have learned is that our gods will always be too small. Some people spend their whole life with one version of god and yet, when one begins to explore beyond the boundaries of god, there are some very frightening places. I can understand why looking at life without a god in the universe would seem frightening, if you had nothing to replace that with.

And often those who leave Christianity, after being awakened to the fact that its claims are based in pagan myths and ancient political powers, will lapse into despair and embrace a pragmatic, often angry atheism. This is not unlike the child who is told that Santa Claus is not real and realize all their joy and excitement around him have been based on a lie. This can leave a child with a profound sense of betrayal and distrust of other people.

It is true that one needs to search for meaning as one would search for the pearl of great price. When presented with the option of despair or continuing to search, I believe that continuing the search is a far more interesting option. And it helps if one has a mentor, that has walked through this, that can provide some direction.

What I have discovered is that something is only true for me if it produces results. This is often a long process and I imagine that I will be going through this process the rest of my life. Rather than producing a sense of disappointment, I have come to enjoy the prospect of exploring deeper and deeper mysteries.

I have also discovered that truth often lays in the midst of a paradox and that real answers aren't contained in words, but exist deep within each one of us. This may be what Jesus was referring to when he spoke so much about the Kingdom of God within.

I have learned through a lot of experience that there are vast capabilities deep within each one of us that are often blocked by fears and shame. And unfortunately modern Christianity has a lot of teachings that prevent people from exploring these places. And modern Christianity does not have many mystical practices that allow people to connect with these parts of themselves that will often ignite transformational experiences. And when it does there is a lot of judgmental beliefs that prevent a fuller connection with this inner awareness.

And often when people have an authentic transformational experience within Christianity, they are the first to be pushed out because it is contagious and frightening at the same time.

I hope that by now I have communicated that I love Christian people and that I honor all of you by telling you what I honestly believe. I hope that I have also communicated that I don't consider what I have to say to be the complete truth or any specific absolute truth. It only happens to be what I have discovered to be true for me. For me, its up to you to decide what is true for you. These problems are simply too complex and too old to have me arrogantly claim that I have it all nailed down.

And yet, I think I can speak to at least what I have observed to not work in specific ways, without generalizing it to all Christians.

[Guest truthseeker007]

Dear CardW i do believe you are speaking from the heart, but actually you are talking like a Jesuit. Forget about philosophy and look at it this way. There are two truths, the one is the bible and the bible alone, the other truth doesn t teach the whole bible and is a universal believe that somehow all the religions are equal and complementary. The bible is the word of God, all the other religions are inventions of the devil because satan was allowed by God to deceive the peoples of the world. Jesus said that the way to eternal destruction in hell is broad and wide and popular while the door of truth is very small and unpopular. This has always been the case since Jesus went to do his work in heaven. IF you want to know the truth you have to abandon your worldy vision of God or religion in general. Don t trust in human philosophies that make you drift away further and further from the truth. It is sad that the world equals Christianity with Roman Catholicism and does not understand that it is a cruel system in the eyes of God and many believers. Think about it, the pope claims his authority as a succesor of Peter whereas Peter himself said that Jesus the chief cornerstone was and he was just a little rock. The ridiculous eucharist is totally unbiblical and is meant to 'celebrate' Jesus crucifiction 24 7 all around the world. The papacy killed everybody who did not want to conform to their worldly view of Christianity. I hope you are open to investigate this point of view. Look for example the following link, it will give you an idea of how clever and subtile the devil is in deception: http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=-...earch&plindex=6