opinions despite loyalty to God

[carolaa]

Although I must confess, this is the first time I have heard it suggested that Moses was a witch. I should like to hold some discourse with my esteemed online friend, D'Allan, in that regard.Dave

I'll second that. My brain is too logical to accept something that doesn't make sense. I can understand differences of opinion or interpretation, but this one needs some 'splainin.

[D. Allan]

Originally Posted By: David Koot

Although I must confess, this is the first time I have heard it suggested that Moses was a witch. I should like to hold some discourse with my esteemed online friend, D'Allan, in that regard.Dave

I'll second that. My brain is too logical to accept something that doesn't make sense. I can understand differences of opinion or interpretation, but this one needs some 'splainin.

Forgive my amusement at your astonishment. Please do. I quite understand it. It is quite a statement to post on a fundamentalist, evangelical religious forum. My motivation was in sympathy for our friend who began this thread who seemed to me to be fearing that God might be angry with them for their thoughts about the mosaic rule which required those breaking the 'Sabbath'(it that the one?) to be killed by stoning. It is pathetic that a person has to fear for his soul if he begins to think about such a law being unjust, and worse than merely unjust. I feel sorry for anyone put in this position by religion - I suffered from it myself profoundly. So you see, my scandalous statement that Moses could have been a witch illustrates the freedom of thought that God has given me. And I am able to think such without fear of being spiritually squashed under His Thumb. Ah, freedom, thank you Jesus! (the truth will set you free)

Not to mention that Moses played magic with the pharoah's magicians. And it was not good magic. But evil pentilential, murderous magic. [Well, thats all fer now. I think I hear *snorts* and throat-clearing with groans and moans in the ether]

[cardw]

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i do believe you are speaking from the heart, but actually you are talking like a Jesuit.

I am speaking nothing like a Jesuit. They claim to have a specific belief in Jesus and God. You seem to want to fit me into one of your conspiracy theories.

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Forget about philosophy and look at it this way. There are two truths, the one is the bible and the bible alone, the other truth doesn t teach the whole bible and is a universal believe that somehow all the religions are equal and complementary.

Your argument starts out with a request to ignore evidence. There are far more versions of truth than what you list here.

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The bible is the word of God, all the other religions are inventions of the devil because satan was allowed by God to deceive the peoples of the world.

And how would allowing Satan deceive everyone further the exploration of truth? The whole premise makes no sense. This is a typical fear based belief structure that explains all the unknown either by assigning it to a mythical god or devil.

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IF you want to know the truth you have to abandon your worldy vision of God or religion in general.

I have a method for discovering truth and it doesn't involve trusting the Bible simply because the Bible has not demonstrated itself to be a reliable source of truth. When something provides the results that it promises and can be verified by independent outside sources, I pay attention. Many of the claims that the Bible makes are simply unsustainable.

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The papacy killed everybody who did not want to conform to their worldly view of Christianity. I hope you are open to investigate this point of view. Look for example the following link, it will give you an idea of how clever and subtile the devil is in deception:

Well, Protestants took over the killing in areas they held power. The Christian church began killing people from its beginnings. Other Christians were killed and their books burned to create the current version of the Bible.

I watched the video and it is simply a series of innuendo, symbol association, and paranoia with little or no evidence of any connections between the various organizations and their goals.

Similarity does not prove association. Again these types of presentations prey on people's fears and anything that has its basis in fear is highly suspect as far as I am concerned.

[David Koot]

My dear online friend, Monsieur d'Allan . . .

You have indeed presented some thoughts which could give one pause. I perceive a certain perspective, perhaps, which begs some attention. At the moment, I am working on a sermon, but would like to come back to this a bit later.

Meanwhile, best regards as always,

Dave

[Robert]

I was actually wondering what you think of the fact that somebody in the Old Testament who gathered sticks on the Sabbath day had to be stoned.

Number 15:32 While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.” 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.

Lev 24:16 Anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him.

Deut 21:18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us….” 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.

[Guest truthseeker007]

"I am speaking nothing like a Jesuit. They claim to have a specific belief in Jesus and God. You seem to want to fit me into one of your conspiracy theories."

I am sorry if i have offended you. And i am not trying to fit you in some sort of conspiracy theory. Actually i was making parallels between the way YOU think and the way Jesuits think. You see, Jesuits don t have the bible on their so, so therefore they have to add human traditions based on human philosophies. Nobody can be so arrogant as to say that he knows it better than God. As you probably know the most of our scientific knowledge is an accumulation of human philosophies that have their origins in pagan religions and Greek "saints" like Pythagoras etc. The bottom line is that the more you follow your own philosophies, the further away you will drift from the truth whereas the truth is actually plain and simple.

"Your argument starts out with a request to ignore evidence. There are far more versions of truth than what you list here."

No my argument states with a request to take this division between a biblical world view and non biblical world views as a hypothesis. When you fill in all the facts and knowledge and divide in one of the two camps you will discover a lot of parallels. For example, the bible says that the dead don t know anything and in are some sort of soul sleep whereas all the other religions all teach that after you die you go straight to heaven. Other religions never point to sin and have their origins in pagan Egypt. There are lots of facts that you can investigate, evolution/creationism, the history in light of bible prophecy etc. Eventually, if you are smart enough, you will have a library full of evidence that the world is the playground between the forces of good and evil, bible VS non-bible etc. The reason that even the most educated people find this hard to believe is because they don t have enough faith to consider the Satan-rules-the-world hypothesis. He has anticipated for centuries our behaviour and knowledge. For example, in Holland he has to use popular mediums like char to deceive people, whereas in dumb areas like India he uses statues that drink milk, for the catholics he uses mary visions/apparitions etc etc.

"This is a typical fear based belief structure that explains all the unknown either by assigning it to a mythical god or devil."

The reason that people are going to be lost is because they have not received the love of the truth. I want the truth no matter what it entails. In fact, i am convinced that i am not going to heaven and i am totally not afraid of going to hell because i am tired of all the pain i have been through in life and all of the lies. When i am consumed, my worries are consumed with me. Eternal destruction, to me, is better than continue living in pain. In addition to that, i don t deserve it to go to heaven because i am a terrible sinner. It is not out of fear that i am believing that the bible is correct. I have been searching for truth all my life, i was once a new ager and got troubles with demons etc.

"I have a method for discovering truth and it doesn't involve trusting the Bible simply because the Bible has not demonstrated itself to be a reliable source of truth. When something provides the results that it promises and can be verified by independent outside sources, I pay attention. Many of the claims that the Bible makes are simply unsustainable."

You cannot HAVE a method to discover truth because somehow all the scientific knowledge is based on certain propositions. IF you follow this way of thinking you will NEVER find the truth. It is however true that you should investigate independant outside sources. IF you do this you will find a lot of historical evidence for what happened in the bible, and what was predicted in the bible. More and more scientists discover that it is impossible that everything came together by chance and millions of years.

"Well, Protestants took over the killing in areas they held power. The Christian church began killing people from its beginnings. Other Christians were killed and their books burned to create the current version of the Bible.

I watched the video and it is simply a series of innuendo, symbol association, and paranoia with little or no evidence of any connections between the various organizations and their goals. Similarity does not prove association. Again these types of presentations prey on people's fears and anything that has its basis in fear is highly suspect as far as I am concerned" Of course protestants have not been perfect in history, but they were fighting for freedom and bible truths and have not committed crimes in such a scale that the Catholics have done. The Catholics where the ones who tortured people terribly, was deeply involved into world politics until it has become the whore of revelation it now is. I have kind of have the impression that you are afraid/or offended if you start believing that the bible was right all the time. I would encourage you to watch the other 36 videos of Walter Veith that handle history, evolution/creationism/ Roman catholicism/secret societies/ bible prophecy/archeological evidence etc etc. If you are not willing to investigate this with an open heart than by your choice you have rejected the truth

[Robert]

The terms of the "old covenant" were, Obey and live: "If a man do, he shall even live in them" (Eze. 20:11; Lev. 18:5); but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them." Deut. 27:26. [RH, 10-17-1907]

NIV: "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”

Folks, open your eyes. The children of Israel entered what we call the Old Covenant. Didn't God know they couldn't keep the law? Yes, but the problem is they didn't know that they couldn't keep law.

You see we are by nature legalists. We are proud - we are egotistical. All our lives we are striving to be # 1 in everything we do. When it comes to religion nothing is different. So Israel basically told God, "God you give us your law and we will keep it. In return you owe us heaven." So God said, "Okay, but if you disobey you must die." And they said, "All that the Lord has spoken we will do."

[D. Allan]

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You see we are by nature legalists. We are proud - we are egotistical. All our lives we are striving to be # 1 in everything we do. When it comes to religion nothing is different.

that's for sure!

[D. Allan]

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Deut. 21:21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.

Moses created a God in his own (Moses') image, his God wants not love but fear.

I think we've had too much of that. If that is religion, down with it! Moses was a control freak! A despot! Shouldn't he be classed along with Stalin and others who killed their political opponents?

[cardw]

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I am sorry if i have offended you. And i am not trying to fit you in some sort of conspiracy theory. Actually i was making parallels between the way YOU think and the way Jesuits think.

No offense taken. I'm sure there are parallels between how you and I think, but that doesn't mean anything.

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As you probably know the most of our scientific knowledge is an accumulation of human philosophies that have their origins in pagan religions and Greek "saints" like Pythagoras etc. The bottom line is that the more you follow your own philosophies, the further away you will drift from the truth whereas the truth is actually plain and simple.

Science is not based on pagan religious practices. That is simply ridiculous. The truth is we all follow our own philosophies. Your philosophy is based on YOUR decision to read the Bible in a particular way of YOUR choosing. You have absolutely no evidence that this is what some god wants you to do, because, unless you are hearing voices or are seeing things, you have not seen or talked with this god.

You, I suspect, are involved in a highly speculative reading of a very confusing and contradictory document called the Bible.

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No my argument states with a request to take this division between a biblical world view and non biblical world views as a hypothesis. When you fill in all the facts and knowledge and divide in one of the two camps you will discover a lot of parallels. For example, the bible says that the dead don t know anything and in are some sort of soul sleep whereas all the other religions all teach that after you die you go straight to heaven. Other religions never point to sin and have their origins in pagan Egypt.

You, obviously haven't read very much about Egyptian religious practice since some forms of it do talk about sin. And not all religions believe that you go right to heaven. You haven't done your homework. And even Christianity has its roots within Greek, Hindu, and other ancient mythological gods. You will find god's all over the place born of a virgin, born on Dec 25, visited by wisemen, attempts on their life by an evil king, sent to earth as a god/man to save humanity, and even crucified on a tree.

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The reason that people are going to be lost is because they have not received the love of the truth. I want the truth no matter what it entails.

Well I can agree with this, but my search for truth has revealed a much different world view than you.

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You cannot HAVE a method to discover truth because somehow all the scientific knowledge is based on certain propositions.

And you have a preposition that has assumed that everything the Bible claims is true. Science is based on observable and repeatable evidence. This is the human condition. We all have this limit. There is a whole area of personal empirical truth. I can only believe what I believe. And what I believe is what I observe to produce results. You can ask me to believe that red is green all you want, but if I keep seeing red when you say green, I have to lie to myself to "believe."

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The reason that even the most educated people find this hard to believe is because they don t have enough faith to consider the Satan-rules-the-world hypothesis. He has anticipated for centuries our behaviour and knowledge. For example, in Holland he has to use popular mediums like char to deceive people, whereas in dumb areas like India he uses statues that drink milk, for the catholics he uses mary visions/apparitions etc etc.

Even if I saw these things happen, they aren't evidence for anything. Any kind of intermediary connection is not direct evidence. I find the Bible, mediums, witches, or prophets pretty much the same thing. Even with all their predictions and claims they still provide no evidence of a conflict between a Satan and a God.

How do you know Satan has anticipated all these things? Again, this is fear based paranoid delusions based on shoddy evidence and speculative thinking that links varous phenomina together with no basis in fact what so ever.

If the Bible is our defense against this kind of stuff then it is surely a poorly written and poorly organized set of books. This myth that you are presenting requires all kinds of manipulation and assumptions to even get it out of the Bible. It is far from a simple truth by your own admission.

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Eventually, if you are smart enough, you will have a library full of evidence that the world is the playground between the forces of good and evil, bible VS non-bible etc.

Well, I am smart enough, and I have not found this to be true. There is always a slim possibility, but at this point it is highly unlikely when I read the history and the evidence from archealogy. There are far more believable reasons when you look at the contexts and the motivations of the various players.

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Of course protestants have not been perfect in history, but they were fighting for freedom and bible truths and have not committed crimes in such a scale that the Catholics have done.

I guess you are not aware of the history of John Calvin and Martin Luther. They both used torture and burned people at the stake. Martin Luther wrote one of the most anti-semitic books that is very likely responsible for many of the methods employed in the holocaust. Ellen White, if that is one of your sources, painted these men as gentle preachers of God's love and redemption. History and their own admission reveal a much different picture. John Calvin's methods of torture were so brutal that they had to chain people up at night to prevent them from commiting suicide. He carried out personal vendettas in the name of God and made life intolerable where ever he ruled. Christianity has been a religion of violence beginning with the formation of the Bible. Read the history.

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I would encourage you to watch the other 36 videos of Walter Veith that handle history, evolution/creationism/ Roman catholicism/secret societies/ bible prophecy/archeological evidence etc etc. If you are not willing to investigate this with an open heart than by your choice you have rejected the truth

I have heard plenty of this type of "evidence" and until I went and read the history for myself, I too, thought these things were true. I have spent thousands of hours studying this. I would put this back on you. If you are not willing to read all the positions on these histories, then you have rejected the truth.

[cardw]

Here are some quotes from the Egyptian book of Maat. It is a moral discourse that would be part of the Egyptian sense of ethics and its relationship to God. Note the strong simularities with the OT and even some NT sayings of Jesus.

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I have satisfied God with that which he loves. I have given bread to the hungry, water to the thirsty, clothes to the naked and a boat to those without one.

In many ways the concept of Maat could be replaced by the idea of Christ the intercessor. Note this passage..

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Do not complain against me before the Great God. For I am clean of mouth and clean of hands...Indeed for I have come here as a witness to Truth and to set the scales of Justice in their proper place among those who have no voice.

You can read more at this link

Maat: The Moral Ideal in Ancient Egypt

[Guest truthseeker007]

Dear Richard,

I think we both have something very in common. We both like to know the truth and we have spent years in searching. I am familiar with the idea that there were many Jesuses born from a virgin on the 25th of december. But scientists have already accepted the idea that Jesus could not be born on the 25th of December. I believe these other Jesuses were counterfeits of the real messiah in order to be able to deceive the world in times like these.(Zeitgeist) I see parallels here with the evolution theory. Because there are parallels they MUST be the same. But I don t have to be able to convince you right now from my point of view, because if i am right you will notice it in the endtime events. Satan will present himself as the God of the Hindus, Muslims, Christians etc. and he will even deceive the elect of the elect. We are now at the beginning of an explosion of occultism that will influence the mind to accept new standards. I know what i am talkin about, I once used to hate Christian fundamentalism and viewed it as backwards. I hope you will find the truth and if i am wrong than the future will prove that i am wrong but if i am right then these will be the things that are going to happen:

- The trade unions of the world(NAFTA, ASEAN, EU etc) will melt by some catalyzing event.

- The public face of occultism will increase

- There will be more mary statues crying, UFOS etc etc.

- More and more you will become an enemy of the state if you believe in the bible. The EU already accepted the view that believing in creationism/intelligent design is a danger to the democratic society.

- This new generation will be unholy, unthankfull etc. because they will not have a sense of connection to their ancestors. This will produce self centredness.

- Under the cloack extremism the governments will take away our civil liberties and control us and will eventually be used to persecute sabbath keepers.

- Roman Catholicism will strenghten their ties with other religions.

- The holy spirit madness in the pentecostal churches will spread like wildfire. There are already over 800 million pentecostals. Under influence of this demonic activity people will switch from rationalism to emotionalism and will create a theocracy in the United States. (thereby making it an image of Roman Catholicism).

etc etc..

I am glad to finally meet someone who also cares about the truth although we both have different view points.

[Guest truthseeker007]

"Your philosophy is based on YOUR decision to read the Bible in a particular way of YOUR choosing."

For worldly people the bible is just a book, to the believer the bible speaks to the heart. In order to understand the bible you need an open heart, like a child that is willing to learn. You cannot understand the bible if you view the bible as not being the true word of God. And i know how many stupid conspiracy theories are out there. I probably watched hundreds of videos. But the videos of Walter Veith are different from them, everything i learn on the university is complementary to the things he examines in his videos. I hope you will watch all of his videos and then make your decision. I hope you will watch his testimony too because it testifies of how powerfully God intervened in his life. The problems i experienced when i was searching for truth was that i was losing my heart and became like a computer that analyses data and put it in context etc. Without opening of the heart to biblical truths you will not understand what i am talking about. I hope you will take some time to watch Walters Videos and after that i hope you can tell me why or why not you do believe he is speaking the truth.

[Woody]

Seeker ... I would point out that "Your decision" and "Your choosing" is all that any of us have. The Holy Spirit points us to that each in a different way. We chose and decide based on how the Spirit has lead us individually. To think that we need to follow one person such as this Walter Veith ... whom I have no idea who he is and have no intentions of finding out ... to think that we need to follow what HE says is not right. That I do know.

I don't consider myself a follower of anyone ... not even Ellen White whom I frequently quote. I consider myself a follower of Christ. And I learn of Him through the Bible and the Holy Spirit. Since I don't believe in or know of whomever this person you are referring to is ... does not make me any less of a Christian. It does not mean that the Holy Spirit does not work in helping me make me personal decisions. NO He helps me to find the way of my choosing to interpret the Bible. It is not the way of Walter Veith I would assume. But it is the way of my choosing from the promptings of the Holy Spirit in MY life.

So, I will pass on the invitations to see his videos etc. I will spend my time in the Word. And NO ... that was not meant to say the word of Ellen White. But the real Word of God.

[cardw]

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For worldly people the bible is just a book, to the believer the bible speaks to the heart. In order to understand the bible you need an open heart, like a child that is willing to learn. You cannot understand the bible if you view the bible as not being the true word of God.

This method works on most holy books. It is still YOUR heart that is doing the interpreting. The questions that I have asked are, "Is the Bible clear and consistent with itself?" "Are there more likely explanations for what we observe?" "Do these explanations present themselves within observations we make today of how human cultures develop their ideas?"

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I believe these other Jesuses were counterfeits of the real messiah in order to be able to deceive the world in times like these.(Zeitgeist) I see parallels here with the evolution theory. Because there are parallels they MUST be the same.

I find it far more likely that, rather than counterfeits, these various ideas were absorbed by the next ruling power. We can observe this in Protestantism today through the various denominations cross pollinating all kinds of religious ideas. Even in Adventism we see all kinds of different applications drawn from other Christian and non-Christian sources.

Protestants launched off a fairly unified view of Christianity that was created by force, not by the searching for truth. The reason paganism goes deep into Christian belief is because the Roman Empire and its philosophers, rulers, and priests made it up. The Jewish church was so marginalized that it was often simply referred to as the Jews. And the reason they were marginalized is because they were protesting about all the pagan myth that was to be included in the official version of Christian belief.

You can read were Constantine complains that the Jews are keeping Easter 2 times a year and therefore are unfit to have an opinion. Since Constantine considered that they kept Easter, he must have considered them a sect of Christianity. He had to marginalize them to please the Roman and Greek sects of Christianity present within Rome. And he did this by a anti-semitic emphasis on their role as a race in the Crucifiction of Jesus. And Jesus was made to look more like a Greek god than a Jewish Rabbi.

Christmas and Easter are not the only pagan concepts in Christian belief. Hell, Virgin Birth, Wisemen, Jesus healing, raising from the Dead, getting the keys of Hell, etc. etc. are all pagan concepts that were present in Roman beliefs of the time. Augustine, who is considered one of the great fathers of the church, was a Neo-Platonic philosopher and these concepts heavily influenced how the Christian Church was formed. Christ is basically taken from Krishna, Mithra, and Egyptian sacred ideas.

If you study the last supper, there is little common in the ceremony with any Jewish feast. It does, however have much in common with Mithra. The drinking of blood would clearly by quite offensive to Jews and yet was a very common concept with Pagan rites. Here is a translated passage from a Mithric sacred meal.

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"He who will not eat of my body, nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved."

Tarsus, where Paul was from was a popular Mithric center and St. Peters was built over the top of a Mirthic temple. Mithric cosmology was very influencial in Plato's philosophy about God being outside of the universe. There are many other striking similarities.

So, from what I read, Rome decided to make Christianity its official religion. And in doing so it created the Bible to support its blend of pagan philosophies and Jesus, violently suppressed any heretical sects, destroyed any and all scriptures that disagreed with this pagan version of Jesus, and passed this down to Protestants. It is estimated that there were 1100 different sects of Christianity by this time.

So we are stuck with this myth about the cosmic struggle between good and evil and Jesus coming down to save us as a god/man sacrifice that is based on a violent suppression of all other beliefs.

[Guest truthseeker007]

Look Richard i am familiar with Mithraism etc etc. I firmly believe these false religions were inventions of the devil/humans. It is true that Christianity was misused by certain leaders and Church fathers like augustine made a lot of mistakes. But the bible has a message for each of the seven time frames. In this time frime the seventh day adventist church has been given the full truth to spread it to the world before the plagues are going to fall. I don t want to spend the whole day arguing so i ve copied-past some discussion that might be able to give you some insight:

koningdavid op 29 nov:

Zeitgeist is a pretty interesting film, well at least the 2nd and 3rd part is.

Too bad the first part contains so many lies using shady sources like Massey and Acharyah. Believing Jesus is a myth was a popular thing to do in the 1800's, but it's really outdated now pretty much and completely out of touch with what present scholars believe.

quote:Zeitgeistmovie.com op 29 nov:

Jesus is a myth. Buddha and Krishna and even Mithras are still worshiped to this day and he said the same thing about them.

quote:koningdavid op 29 nov:

"Who" said the same thing about all of them?

Don't be a fool and study the evidence. Contemporary egyptology depicts Horus entirely different than Zeitgeist (Massey, Acharyah) does. The same goes for Krisha.

Mithras was more influenced by Jesus than vice versa.

Get your facts straight sir, because you're promoting lies.

quote:Zeitgeistmovie.com op 29 nov:

Thats weird because Mitfras was worshiped 600 years before Jesus.

Unlike you, I have studied the evidence. I can list books that say the same thing. And Mithras is 600 years older than Jesus.

The religion he was in, Zoroastian, which origenated in Persia, found it's way into Rome arond the first century CE where it was called the cult of Mithras.

And answer me this:

Why do you accept what Peter said on the third part? You accept the evidence he put on the Federal Reserve and International Bankers, yet, you ignore the evidence for the first part. Granted, he was off in some areas, but there was so much more that he left out.

I suggest you watch "Jordan Maxwell The Naked Truth". It lists far more gods than Zeitgeist and goes in depth of the Astrological significance of it.

quote:koningdavid op 29 nov:

> Thats weird because Mitfras was worshiped 600 years before > Jesus.

That's true (actually more than 600 years before Jesus). But have you looked how far back most of the 'Jesuslike' stuff goes?

The 'pre-Jesus' Mithras had hardly any shocking comparisons with Jesus. Most comparisons evolved after 30 AD.

> Unlike you, I have studied the evidence. I can list books

> that say the same thing.

Yeah books that are terribly outdated. Man, I studied the evidence too. Let's look at your main figure 'Horus'.

You depict the Horus of Massey which is a kind of Horus almost NONE of the present Egyptologists depict. Find me ONE present egyptology-website that says Horus was born of a virgin, crucified and resurrected, there are none.

Your Horus is the Horus that was depicted (or made up?) by some 19th century amateur-egyptologists (like Massey) that aren't even considered egyptologists in present times.

You choose the outdated Horus over the present Horus. Crazy.

>And answer me this:

Why do you accept what Peter said on the third part? You accept

>the evidence he put on the Federal Reserve and International

>Bankers, yet, you ignore the evidence for the first part.

I don't accept al stuff on the federal reserve and international bankers. I found it interesting, mainly because I don't know much about it. So I'm not really making judgments about what is true and what not.

But on the first part however I do happen to know a lot. And I know it's nothing less than silly to believe Jesus never existed. It's even more silly to say that Horus, Krishna, Dyonisus and Mithras were crucified and resurrected.

But the most silliest part is where Zeitgeist claims that the bible is actually promoting 'astrology'. Dude... the bible condemns astrology and sunworship very clearly.

Stop promoting lies.

quote:Zeitgeistmovie.com op 1 dec:

Silly to believe Jesus never existed?

It is silly to believe that he did.

How about people who believed Buddha existed? Or Muhammad? Or Zoroaster?

They are all made up.

quote:koningdavid op 2 dec:

Man... you don't know a thing about history do you?

Just compare the historical evidence for Jesus with Buddha or Zoroaster, the difference is huge.

And if you don't believe Muhammad existed, man, that's dumb

Anyway, Jesus:

- There are about 27 books written about him in a timespan of a few decades after his death where Jesus' name only is mentioned about a THOUSAND times. In a few decades, that's like a newsflash in ancient times.

Show me any 'made-up' historical figure that has the same amount of writings about him written in such a short timespan?

There isn't ONE.

- Plus there are mentions from major non-christian ancient historians Josephus (although one is partly interpolated) and Tacitus.

If you don't believe Jesus existed you can scratch 95% from your historybook my man.

quote:Zeitgeistmovie.com op 2 dec:

Just shut up. Your religion is as made as the ancient Greek Religion.

[cardw]

James Still on the Last Supper

Quote:

I don t want to spend the whole day arguing so i ve copied-past some discussion that might be able to give you some insight:

This whole dialog has little to do with what I said. First, I don't deny that a historical Jesus existed and second, I'm not limited to Horus as evidence of virgin birth. You can find virgin birth associated with many ancient gods and kings.

Here is a very fair evaluation of the ritual involved in the last supper or the Eucharist. Whether or not it was specifically a Mithric ritual or not, it certainly was not a Passover ritual, and it has pagan associations with other sacrificial mythologies that involved eating a god's body.

James Still on the Last Supper

Here is a 1st century description of the Eucharist and there is no mention of eating the body of Christ or drinking his blood. In fact there is quite a different emphasis.

Quote:

Chapter 9. The Eucharist. Now concerning the Eucharist, give thanks as follows.

(2) First, concerning the cup:

We give you thanks, our Father,

for the holy vine of David your servant,

which you have made known to us

through Jesus your servant,

to you be the glory forever.

(3) And concerning the broken bread:

We give you thanks, our Father,

for the life and knowledge you have made known to us

through Jesus, your servant;

to you be the glory forever.

[Didache, Chapters 9 (1st century AD),—which you can find in: Holmes, Michael. The Apostolic Fathers: Greek Texts and English Translations (1999), pg. 259 - 263]

I don't have room for the wealth of evidence on this, but this gives you an idea on the type of evidence that I pay attention to.