Unknown problems of the one sitting next to you in church.

[Gregory Matthews]

NOTE: Names have been changed to protect the inncent one.

For over a year Sara attended our church services, with her daughter, Samantha. She sat in our Sabbath School class, participated in the discussions and, speakikng frankly, attempted to win us over to her religion.

Sara worshiped another god/goddess. As she responded in SS class, she intrepreted her religion in terms that sounded familiar to us as Christians. I had begun a personal study of her religion about a year prior to Sara joining our class. As she began to cite her Scripture in our class, I began to bring my copy to add to her comments by citing additional material that she had not quoted. Sara enjoyed those interchanges.

An Adventist neighbour had invited Samantha to Sabbath School. Smantha came, enjoyed it and invited her mother. So, for a year they came.

Circumstances changed and they stopped attending. Some of us wondered what had happened to them. One week ago today, the newsper headlines informed us.

Sara had been charged with two counts of child abuse. Every Saturday, for over a year, she had dropped her 8 YO daughter off at the home of a 47 YO male, and picked Samantha up the next day. The 47 YP male is in jail and faces a possible life sentence as he is charged with the sexual assult of a child by a person in a posiiton of trust.

Sara has stated that the authorities are good-hearted, but misguided in their arrests. She states that she was aware of the relationship between Samantha and the male and had been informed by her 8 YO daughter that it was consensual. She also is aware, she says, of others who engage in ceratin of the activities that the male is carged with in regard to Samantha and Sara does not consider them to be any big deal.

For more than a year Sara and Samantha attend our chruch and none of us knew what was going on in the life of 8 YO Samantha.

[Liz]

This is so very sad.

[cricket]

The accounts that I've read state that the mother didn't even know where this man lived!

[Gregory Matthews]

Cricket:

You may be correct? There is a claim that the mother did not directly drop her daughter off as the place where the man lived, but rather delivered her daughter to him at other locations. However, that leaves unresolved the issue as to where the girl was returned to her.

In any case I have before me the newspaper article in which the specifics are detailed in a much more specific manner than I have stated in this forum. I have intentionally not specified them here as I have considered it not appropriate to do so. The news article makes it very clear that the mother knew and approved of certain activities that went on between the man and her daughter.

In any case, my point was that we may not know the problems that the person sitting next to us in church may face. None of us knew what was happening in the life of that little girl. It was the child's teachers at school that observed behavior that resulted in them contacting Social Services.

[Neil D]

This is disturbing you a lot, isn't it Gregory......

....are you handling this ok? How are YOU doing?

[Amelia]

Why is this titled "problems of the one sitting next to you in church"?

The mother didn't think it was a problem. The 8yo didn't think it was a problem. Someone else thought it was a problem. Isn't it tricky when dealing with a member of another religion, possibly a pagan one? Don't they have different values and morals? Please, I am not condoning what happened. It WAS child abuse. I'm just trying to think from their side.

[Gregory Matthews]

Religon can not be a cover for child abuse.

Child abuse is a problem whether or not the mother recognizes it.

The 8 YO girl will likely face problems in her later life regardless of whether or not she recognizes it now.

The teachers in her school saw problems in her current life that alerted them to the potential issues of sexual abuse.

It was, is and will be a problem.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

For more than a year Sara and Samantha attend our church and none of us knew what was going on in the life of 8 YO Samantha.

This is not unusual. In fact, it is quite typical. Sexual abuse is normally quite secret. My father sexually molested three of my sisters over the course of several years and no one knew until they were adults and said something. And we lived in the same house together!

[Amelia]

OK, now I'm curious. How is this different from the Christian Scientists (I think It's them) that withhold medical care for their children? I think this would also fall under child abuse yet they are allowed to follow their religious teachings.

[cricket]

Did any of the newspaper accounts state whether or not this was part of this woman's religious belief system?

OK, now I'm curious. How is this different from the Christian Scientists (I think It's them) that withhold medical care for their children? I think this would also fall under child abuse yet they are allowed to follow their religious teachings.

I've often wondered where the threshhold for child abuse falls. Some atheists might argue that any religious teaching is brainwashing children--they may even argue that such brainwashing is a form of child abuse. Those who hold strong religious beliefs might argue that refusing to teach children about God is child abuse as well.

Where should the line be drawn?

[Amelia]

Could someone post the link to the news article, please?

[Gregory Matthews]

This reply is directed to all, not just Amelia.

No claim has been made that the sexual abuse was related to religious beleifs and practices.

The sexuasl abuse was classic up to a point and quite typical of what happens in sexual abuse of a child.

However, due to the discussion and questions that have been made in this thread, I wil break my silence and state one aspect of the abuse: The man is charged with collecting and drinking the child's urine. Thea mother is quoted as responding to that alagation in a manner that aproves of doing so.

[Gregory Matthews]

There are numerous places where this has been mentioned on the Internet. To search simply plug in:

<Joseph Cardillo> or < Lori Lee Hansen-Beard> into a search engine.

The major article is in a password protected site. However I finaly found a place where it is open to the public. Go to:

http://dailycamera.com/news/2008/jan/19/mother-arrested-on-abuse-charges/

This article was written by Christine Reid, and published in the January 19 edition of THE DAILY CAMERA.

It reads as follows:

Quote:

A Boulder mother who admitted she dropped her 8-year-old daughter off every Saturday for a year to spend the night with a 47-year-old man said authorities are "good-hearted, but misguided" in charging her with child abuse.

Lora Lee Hansen-Beard, 41, is charged with two misdemeanor counts of child abuse for placing the girl in a life- or health-threatening situation. Each charge carries a maximum penalty of one year in jail.

Hansen-Beard turned herself in at the Boulder County Jail on Dec. 19, and posted a $1,000 bond. She is expected in court Feb. 19 for a pre-trial conference.

Joseph Cardillo, 47, of Niwot, pleaded not guilty Friday to sex assault charges. He's accused of using a sex toy on the child and drinking her urine.

Reached Friday afternoon, Hansen-Beard declined to elaborate on her statement about police.

Hansen-Beard said she has not seen her daughter, who is now living with her grandparents, since Dec. 14. She's not allowed to contact the girl without permission from the Department of Social Services, according to court documents.

According to Hansen-Beard's arrest warrant, authorities were called to the girl's school in October after teachers reported that she often showed up late, unfed and wearing dirty clothes. Teachers described the girl as emotionally fragile, and reported that she cried all the time and had no focus on school work.

One teacher said that during a parent-teacher conference, Hansen-Beard said her daughter is a child of the sun and can't get up when it's dark. The mother also said the girl's eyes get "close-up X-ray vision" every night at midnight, allowing her to diagnose herself with sickle cell anemia, the warrant states.

It says the girl told investigators she and Cardillo slept in the same bed together, usually naked, and would bathe together and use a hot tub in the nude. She said he caught her urine in cupped hands to drink it and once used a sex toy on her.

Hansen-Beard said her daughter had told her about the nudity and urine-drinking incidents, according to the warrant, but she told deputies it wasn't hurting anyone and she knows other people who drink urine.

Hansen-Beard also said she asked her daughter if she was forced to do anything, and the girl said no, so Hansen-Beard had to respect that.

Hansen-Beard told police she met Cardillo two years ago at a Hare Krishna meeting in Boulder. She described him as family, but never went to his Niwot home -- instead meeting him in public places to drop off her daughter, the warrant said.

A trial for Cardillo, who is free on a $100,000 bond, has been set for June 2. He faces a possible life sentence in prison if convicted on charges of sex assault on a child by a person in position of trust and a pattern of assaulting the girl.

Hansen-Beard said Friday that before her arrest she had plans to tutor students of all ages.

NOTE: I know the woman. She is quite intelligent. Also, there has been a series of articles published on this event. This is only one. So, if someting I have said is not in this article, it came from some other source.

In addition, the mother's Hindu faith has been mentioned in other articles. But, no claim has been made that the abuse of the child was a result of her Hindu faith.

[Neil D]

Gregory,

You have seen child abuse cases before....I know that they are disturbing......What makes this one different for you than the others?

[Gregory Matthews]

Neil:

Here is where it is different:

Her mother sat in our SS Class for a year or more.

The child attended our services for the same time.

I ask myself: Was there any clue that I missed? Did the child give any of our members a clue that they missed? If so, was this reported to me in any manner and I missed it.

The bottom line: This case broke because school teachers rightly read clues that the child was giving.

Did that child give any clues to any of us? Did I, or any other, miss them?

In retrospect, I MAY have missed a clue. I am not certain. But I wonder. In any case, I have learned something. There may have been a clue that I missed and upon which I did not follow up. If so, do I justify it by the reality that it was not enough to bring the civil authorities in at that time and not firsthand information? Is there something that I can learn from this for the future?

One of the issues that I am dealing with is: In the future, how can I respond in a situation where I do not have first hand knowledge and the data is not enough for the civil authorities to act on at that time.

As I process this I am developing some possible ideas.

Neil you have asked. I have responded.

[Neil D]

Quote:

I ask myself: Was there any clue that I missed? Did the child give any of our members a clue that they missed? If so, was this reported to me in any manner and I missed it.

I suspect that you are beating yourself up over this....and you need to understand, they knew enough to hide it well....You couldn't have seen the subtle clues, because this is something that you would have to had daily contact with. The teachers saw the child on a nearly daily basis...they saw the clues...

IT is distressing that someone comes to our church, and we even give Bible studies lessons and think we understand these people....but then, thier inner life/fanatasys become exposed to the world...and we realize that we never knew them....

You are ok, Gregory....it's ok to take a deep breath....and it's ok to greive over this....You have done nothing wrong...you have probably not missed anything....

[Gregory Matthews]

The issue is what can we learn?

I have in the back of my mind that someone said something to my wife that she repeated to me, about something that the child is supposed to have said to them.

At the time it came to me it was after church. The mother and daughter had already left. It as not enough for the civi authorities to act upon. As the mother was not a member, we did not have her address. But, one of our members did.

Well, Neil, you prodding me has caused me to reflect upon this, and to use it as a learning event. The next time I will do differentlly.

[cricket]

Gregory, you mentioned that this mother and daughter had not been attending your church for some time and you had wondered what had happened to them. Is it possible that none of the alleged abuse happened during the time frame in which these people were attending your church? If so, there may have been no clues to pick up on as there was nothing going on at the time.

[Gregory Matthews]

No. The abuse was going on while they were attending our church.

[there buster]

Don't be tough on yourself, Gregory.

I'm sure you know that families like this are expert at covering up the abuse. Even the children learn to contribute to that.

And, as an elementary teacher, I can tell you that teachers have many more cues as to this kind of behavior. Many years ago, it became clear to me that a church elder and his wife were about to divorce, weeks before anyone else did, because of what their 3rd grade daughter said at school. She never said the word "divorce" of course, or even spoke much of fights, but there were lots of other cues.

Even so. I once missed a case of abuse. The story is quite sensational, because it ended up with the murder of the mother by her children. I communicated with the daughter who had been convicted of the murder (it's a very convoluted tale) in prison. I apologized for having missed the symptoms, which were clearer after the fact. And she said, "It's not your fault. We knew how to keep it secret."

Since then, I have been much more aware. None of us is God. We're all imperfect. And abusers profit from the fact that what they do is unimaginable-- even if we've studied it, it's often hard to believe that this particular person is actually doing it.

[Gregory Matthews]

You-all are kind.

AS I say, the issue is: What can I lear from this for this future.

[there buster]

I understand, and share that.

From my encounter(s) with abusers in church, I learned never to ignore the signals again, and never let a dysfunctional environment go unchallenged.

[darlene]

This mother and daughter were not SDAs but they were in our church. In the past we have had instances of abuse among members in our churches and sometimes they have been caught. What do we do when they are caught? Sometimes we have tried to cover it up. Other times they have been reported? So, what do we do?

In about 1998 the NAD Children's Ministries Department along with Risk Management drew up a Volunteer Screening Policy. Our conference is located in a Province that probably has the most stringent Privacy Laws in North America and as a result we cannot use all of the NAD Policy. That meant that in 2002-3 I had to draw up our own screening policy. I took the Soccer Association, Toronto Archdioses, Boy Scouts, Pathfinders, BC Education, Ontario Conference Policies and came up with our own. This past week we had our lawyer, look at it and On Sunday (yesterday)I presented it to our Conference Board of Directors. They will look at it and vote on it at their next meeting and then it will be our VP for Administration to impliment the policy. That will take an extreme amount of work.

I suspect that many of our conferences across the NAD have policies in place for the screening of all SS, VBS, etc. volunteers. I suspect that many churches have safeguards in place already. I also suspect that in the specific situation that Greg M. presented in this thread the policy was noneffective because no one picked up on the situation and it did not happen at church (fortunately). I do suspect also that there were clues that could have been picked up on had some of the leaders, etc., been alert to them. I do believe that our churches need to be safe places for both children and leaders and we need to educate ourselves to be aware of and keep our eyes open for abuses of any kind. We are nearing the end of time for this world and we know that these things are not going to get better but, get worse.

[Neil D]

You-all are kind.

AS I say, the issue is: What can I lear from this for this future.

With all due respect, Gregory...I think that there is more than just learning from this....I think that there has been some wounding...You are wounded...and you are suffering from it....

Do yourself a favor and take some time to grief and heal...If you don't, you will always be wounded...and if you heal, you will learn the lesson a bit better, as you will process it better....As one person has recently told me...listen to your heart....God has placed some self healing if we listen....

[Amelia]

Quote:

According to Hansen-Beard's arrest warrant, authorities were called to the girl's school in October after teachers reported that she often showed up late, unfed and wearing dirty clothes. Teachers described the girl as emotionally fragile, and reported that she cried all the time and had no focus on school work.

So I wonder, If this was taking place at the same time they were attending church; how did those clues change for just one day? I'm going to assume that the child wore clean clothes and looked fed. That she didn't evidence any fragility or endless crying.

I am also curious with the "often showed up late" comment. Most schools expect a note from a parent as to lateness and two or three lates usually produce a letter home to mom or dad. How long did the school let the lateness go before doing anything about it? How long did "things" accumulate before someone other than mom was called?

None of us look at someone with the expectation of seeing a wrong action or out of place emotion. And if we do, it's not with the thought of possible abusive causes. We ask a person if they are all right. And most times go away accepting the answer even if its wrong. We can't beat ourselves up for not spoting it sooner or not at all.

As far as not going out in the dark and having xray vision...well don't know what to say about that.