A struggle to understand and believe

[Guest]

I have been an active SDA member for 8 long years, but for the last 4 years I have put on an empty show. It has all been a farse. I have become confused and distant from church and God. I have tried to understand and believe Adventistm, I have prayed for God to give me the knowledge, intelligence and change in heart to be a better Christian Adventist. But I just dont think that I have what it takes to be "Adventist". I am as confused today as I was when I listened to my first adventist seminars. It seems I need a PHD or masters in language arts and theology to understand the doctrine. The guilt of going to church and sitting their with my doubts in my head and questions in mind has become unbearable, even though I want to be their because I love God and I want to be close to him. But I just dont see him their. I see arguments, discord, Spiritual pride and abuse, roller coasters trips of guilt, hate, disapproval, arrogance, exclusivity and double standards. Its depressing, I have been thinking of finally owning up to my sad truth and just leave. Unfortunately, i dont know if i could ever join a church again of any faith. Please pray for me.

[CyberGuy]

The problem with every church is that they are made up of inperfect sinners. I was in a small church that that broke up due to squabbling over the money the church had raised for a new church. We were to small to ever build and some wanted to join a larger congregation and throw out lot with them to build a bigger church. Others wanted to donate the money to worthy causes. I saw friendships destroyed as that church was splintered. Sorry to say I was drawn into the fight as well. Even I was not immune from the petty squabble.

On a narrow vote of 10 to 8 we voted to join the larger church. Many of those that lost left and joined other churches.

I still feel sad as that church was a great family to my kids growing up in the church. I will always remember the ingathering and the caroling with those men and women and the hot soup and banna bread by one of our church elders. All destroyed over petty sqabbling.

I do not want to discourage you but the church SHOULD be built on Christ and not on men but it is the weakest link we see the people within the church.

We must pray earnestly for God to make us what we are not. Strong people who Look to Christ for guidance and NOT to men. Everyone of us if we live long enough and have enough contact with the church can point to men and women in the church who let us down or insulted us or who seem to have no business in the church.

Still we must plod on. We are on this earth for a very short lifespan of 80 plus years if we are lucky. Very quickly it will be over and when are at Deaths door can we look back and say as Paul Said. "I have fought the good fight."

[LifeHiscost]

We must pray earnestly for God to make us what we are not. Strong people who Look to Christ for guidance and NOT to men. Everyone of us if we live long enough and have enough contact with the church can point to men and women in the church who let us down or insulted us or who seem to have no business in the church.

Sad to say it was the church proper that hung Jesus on the cross. One need not read far in the new testament to recognize the church is no different today than it was when Jesus walked the earth in the flesh.

Making oneself find happiness in the church is no different than finding a happy marraige relationship. It is just as important to be the right person as it is to find the right person. The difference in finding happiness in the body of Christ is the ease with which Jesus provides the way. The right person is always the person willing to admit they don't have what it takes, something you've already admitted, which makes the next step that much easier.

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Revelation 22:17 KJV

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." John 6:37 NASB

You are being prayed for, by One whose prayers far surpass those we can give.

"But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." Luke 22:32 KJV

Regards!

[Sulla]

Hi seth to be a Christian you only have to love God with all your heart and surrender all to him. And you do this day by day hour by hour and minute by minute. So just start with that. Ask him to come in and guide your life right now this moment and give you peace. Find the quit place to pray and spend today with God. He will never turn away a true heart EVER. Study your Bible and read God's promises to you. Spend time with him. And do it today:) Don't worry about the next day or next month. But just stay with God today right now. Put your eyes on God not man.

Then build hour by hour day by day. But always looking to God. And if you let him guide you minute by minute, hour by hour and day by day things will start to work themselves out.

And then later as you get on a firmer footing with God he will guide you on what things to study. And he will take you step by step in what you need and can handle.

Besides all of us on the forum are going to be praying for you and prayer is a powerful weapon:)

[Gerr]

Seth, I am saddened by your experience. Let the PhD and language experts debate what the Word says. Let the hypocrites and the proud boast of their knowledge & possession of the truth. Just remember, my brother, that the gospel net brings in both good and bad fish into the church, that the wheat and the tares will be in the church till the Harvest. Yes, that can be very discouraging, because it is hard not to notice the stinking bad fish, and hard to overlook the tears and the pain that the tares cause. But that is why we are to look only to Jesus, the Author & Finisher of our faith. The Plan of Salvation and what God requires is really very simple.

"He has showed you, O man, what is good.

And what does the LORD require of you?

To act justly and to love mercy

And to walk humbly with your God." Mic 6:8 NIV.

Or, as Jesus summarized it: Love God with all your heart, mind and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. These we do by putting our complete confidence, trust, and faith in God who gives us His Holy Spirit to will and to do these things. Cling to Jesus, my brother, and you will not be disappointed.

Yes, I will be praying for you.

Gerry

[Neil D]

Quote:

The guilt of going to church and sitting their with my doubts in my head and questions in mind has become unbearable, even though I want to be their because I love God and I want to be close to him. But I just dont see him their. I see arguments, discord, Spiritual pride and abuse, roller coasters trips of guilt, hate, disapproval, arrogance, exclusivity and double standards. Its depressing, I have been thinking of finally owning up to my sad truth and just leave. Unfortunately, i dont know if i could ever join a church again of any faith. Please pray for me.

OOoooh man, I feel for you...

Know what? There are times when I feel like throwing in the towel as well. When I see the fights that I have been in here on C/A, I get pretty discouraged and sad....And I wonder what I can do to at least get over this ....

Usually a bit of self examination shows my faults...and if I keep a diary of what happens, I start to find a pattern. When I discover that pattern, I bring it to the Lord and WE discuss it. And little changes happen here and there . Maybe not so big ones that everyone sees, but after a while, some notice some changes..

Now, Seth, what you are doing is a common practice of looking at everyone and seeing thier problems and comparing them to your standards...Sorry, buddy, but when you do that, you fall right into the Devil's "how to discourage Seth and get him by himself" trap. You need physcal friends, buddy. And you need a to probably start a small group study for a while and open up to them....You guys need to pray together for each other...Trust me, when you do this, all of you will benefit. And then church will not seem so ,,,petty...

[phkrause]

That was really good advice Neal.

pkrause

[Neil D]

That was really good advice Neal.

pkrause

I am begining to think that we all need that. I know that I have benefited from it when I had a small group to go to...It was a pain sometimes to remind myself to go, because I didn't feel like going...but when I got home, I ALWAYS was glad that I did....I ALWAYS recieved something to make it thru the week...

[Woody]

I am sorry to say ... it might be best that you leave "church".

But of all things ... DO NOT LEAVE CHRIST.

For new babes in Christ ... it can be very discouraging to be around sinners. A church is a collection of failures. If you are not a failure ... you are not welcome in church . Those who are perfect ... do not make for good company in church.

But back to you personally.

Honestly ... you don't need "church". I think it is helpful for some and hurtful for others. You may be in the latter. But, I also think that you could "shop" for a church that would fit your needs. I am confident that there is a church out there for you. It may be an SDA church and it may not be.

At this point it sounds to me like you need to drop the idea of "doctrines" and focus on the LOVE of God and assurance of Salvation that is in the Gospels. Throw those doctrines away until you are ready. God will let you know when you are ready.

But do not give up on God. Just give up on the Church. Don't expect much from it .. for they are just all a bunch of failures. Look to God only.

Later ... OK. I just read Neil's suggestion about needing Christian friends and going to a small study group. I think he has the best suggestion other than us praying for you.

I don't know you well enough ... but if you could follow Neil's suggestion that would be best. But if not ... just back off ... forget "church" ... get yourself in the position to where you can handle the "sinners" and "failures" in church ... then maybe return.

[olger]

Prayed for you Seth. Thanks for admitting the conflict inside you.

If you wish to email me in private, I am available to try and help your situation.

Gerry

[Woody]

Oh. And Seth. If you need a Christian friend who will not push all the doctines on you ... you can PM me.

[Sulla]

Good advice Neil D not so much Redwood. I would suggest you still go to church. The only way to make churches better is to have more good people in them. You cant lock yourself away from the world and only be around the people you like. And as you get closer to God you will bring a wonderful ray of light into any place you go. People will see the peace you joy you have and be attracted to you. One person with a true heart can change an entire church over time just by being there:)

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

for the last 4 years I have put on an empty show. It has all been a farse.

I don't exactly what is meant here by "empty show" or "farse". I know that in AA we have a saying that goes, "Fake it 'til you make it." If the meaning of "empty show" or "farse" is living the life of a hypocrite, then that is not a good thing and will not lead to happiness. Being a hypocrite is saying one thing and doing another. However if "empty show" and "farse" mean not living up to one's own expectations, that is completely, 100% different.

I struggle to live up to my own expectations. And as I overcome certain sins the Holy Spirit reveals others sins to me that I hadn't been aware of before. Running the race of faith will be a struggle my entire life. There will never come a time when I will be able to relax and feel I am in a state of 100% victory of all temptation. I sit on my local church board and I told the other board members at my first meeting that I wasn't deserving to be there. I have struggles but am not a hypocrite. I am honest about my short-comings and continue to fight the battle against temptation - which too often includes failures on my part.

Quote:

I see arguments, discord, Spiritual pride and abuse, roller coasters trips of guilt, hate, disapproval, arrogance, exclusivity and double standards.

I pity those that judge me. I know that my walk in faith is not exactly the same as others in my local church or others here at C/A. Yet, there are those that will judge my walk of faith based on their own walk of faith. I do not getting angry with such people. I pity them. They need my prayers more than anything else. These people, like me, still have spiritual issues to work out. For me to leave the church because of them would be to throw out the baby with the bath water.

I will pray for you friend. I pray that God give you courage and a new outlook that will allow you to enjoy His church even though it has judgmental hypocrites in it.

[Gerr]

Quote:

At this point it sounds to me like you need to drop the idea of "doctrines" and focus on the LOVE of God and assurance of Salvation that is in the Gospels. Throw those doctrines away until you are ready. God will let you know when you are ready.

The most asenine advise I've heard in awhile. Without doctrine/teaching, you wouldn't have an idea what the love of God is all about, and assurance of salvation IS itself a doctrine!

While it maybe advisable to leave a particular church and go to another that may provide a healthier environment, going off by oneself makes one more vulnerable to the devil's attacks. It is much easier to break a one-strand string than one that has 10.

Gerry

[Woody]

Quote:

It is much easier to break a one-strand string than one that has 10.

Unfortunately ... at this moment ... those 10 strands are far too strong and they are choking him to DEATH.

[Woody]

Quote:

The most asenine advise I've heard in awhile.

I am sorry that you have such a low opinion of my views. Could you be a little more clear about it .... I would not want to misunderstand anything.

I happen to believe in that asinine advice thank you.

[LifeHiscost]

I would suggest a hypocrite is a person who pretends to be something he/she knows they are not.

"And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God."

Luke 18:19 KJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Oh. And Seth. If you need a Christian friend who will not push all the doctines on you ... you can PM me.

Interesting, Redwood, that you would warn a person before hand that you will not push any of Christ's teachings on them. I'm wondering, who or what will you discuss as a professed follower of Jesus?

"If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine(teaching), whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." John 7:17 KJV parenthesis mine LHC

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

One person with a true heart can change an entire church over time just by being there:)

Seth, Jesus said " Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." Matthew 5:16 KJV

Notice He did not say "make" your light shine. I've found relaxing and being myself, while perhaps not pleasing some, it's far more pleasing to God than trying to be somebody your not. When you ask God to make you what He wants you to be, you can praise Him for His marvelous workings in your life.

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new." 2 Corinthians 5:17 NKJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

I am sorry to say ... it might be best that you leave "church".

Honestly ... you don't need "church".

"Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching."

Hebrews 10:25 KJV

Seth, this was written to the body of believers, not the world in general. I guess a person needs to determine whether they are a believer before deciding whether this instruction fits themself.

Regards!

[Gerr]

Quote:

The most asenine advise I've heard in awhile.

I am sorry that you have such a low opinion of my views. Could you be a little more clear about it .... I would not want to misunderstand anything.

I happen to believe in that asinine advice thank you.

Asinine because it shows a total misunderstanding of what doctrine is. You advocate knowing the love of God and the assurance of salvation, which are perfectly good, yet you want to throw away doctrine. That God is love and that we can have assurance of salvation ARE DOCTRINES!!!

When Jesus gave His commission to His disciples, they were to "Go ...and make disciples...TEACHING [didasko from which didache- doctrine/teaching comes from] them to observe ALL things that I have commanded you..." Mt 28:19 NKJ.

Gerry

[LifeHiscost]

That was really good advice Neal.

pkrause

Likewise.

"A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver." Proverbs 25:11 KJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

And now I need to make sure that it isn't myself that stinketh.

"Yet they say to each other,‘Don’t come too close or you will defile me!I am holier than you!’These people are a stench in my nostrils,an acrid smell that never goes away" Isaiah 65:5 NLT

Regards!

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

I would suggest a hypocrite is a person who pretends to be something he/she knows they are not.

That is generally true because of the motive why most people will pretend. Normally one will pretend to be something they are not in order to deceive others into believing it is so while in fact they live a double life. As such, they are a hypocrite.

What the saying "Fake it 'til you make it" implies is that we pretend to be good until we actually want to be good. The logic is that right feelings and right desires will follow right actions quicker than right actions will follow right desires and feelings. If we wait until we feel like doing right before we actually do it, Satan will make sure we never feel like it.

Doing right when we don't feel like it is a step of faith. It is easy to give up and condemn myself because I am not living up to high standards in all walks of life. But to do so would be to do exactly what the enemy of souls wants. I may not feel like going to church every Sabbath, but I need to go through the motions. As I continue to go through the motions eventually I become more and more empowered by good habits and these good habits grow. Thus the saying "Fake it 'til you make it." There is nothing wrong with "pretending" as long as one is honest about it and not trying to deceive others.

[Woody]

We are ALL hypocrites. We say we are Christians. But do we really follow him as we should 100%. No. We all fail. In failing we are saying we are one thing but we are actually something else. For instance ... I frequently say "I love the Lord". But when I fail ... have I truly "loved the Lord". Apparently ... I stopped loving him and became a Hypocrite.

Could I just make a disclaimer once and for all ... I fail.