Did she go too far?

[Neil D]

After her 8-year-old son acted up in class, a Jacksonville, Fla., mom employed a controversial punishment to teach him a lesson.

Marcia Harvey made her son Roland stand on the sidewalk for three hours with a sign telling the world how he misbehaved in his second-grade class.

The sign read, "I was rude to my teacher. I can't come to school. I am sorry." The other side read, "I will make good choices."

Harvey said today on "Good Morning America" that she didn't want to embarrass her son, but thought a different type of punishment might get the message across.

"It was a way of getting his attention and getting him back on track," Harvey said.

"I want him to be successful in life."

Many ABCNews.com readers praised Harvey last week for taking a strong stand. One comment read: "It's refreshing to see parents discipline their children without fear of reprisal."

But the sight of teary-eyed Roland tugged the heart strings of others readers, some of whom said Harvey had taken the punishment too far.

Some experts agree, saying teaching by humiliation does not work.

"All it will do is produce more anger and resentment in the child," said psychologist Jill Hunziker.

Harvey is not the first parent to try this form of discipline.

Fed up by her 14-year old daughter's bad grades, one Oklahoma City mom forced the teen to stand at a busy intersection wearing a sign that promised she would try harder in school.

"I was embarrassed and I think it helped me a lot," said the daughter, Coretha Henderson. "It helped me realize that I can do better and I need to try harder."

Twelve-year-old Dustin Murphy was sent out with a sign after being kicked out of school for the seventh time.

Hunziker said while this form of punishment isn't necessarily the best, Harvey's heart was in the right place.

He may not do it again because he'll be humiliated or he'll get in trouble but it seems to me that the mother was concerned about him being a good student and she wants him to learn how to be a good person," Hunziker said.

As for Roland, who is an honor roll student, he says he has learned his lesson.

"I got to be good in school and do right," he said.

So, what do you think? Did mother go too far? What about you teachers out there? Do you have other displinary techniques that work in this situation?

[David Koot]

That type of punishment is absolutely inappropriate and can leave long-lasting scars.

[Guest JeanMarie]

I don't think it's a necessarily bad punishment tactic. Certainly the student is going to remember this a lot longer than a whack on his seat or setting him down and trying to talk with him. This was an 8yr old. Other age groups might have similar, but not the same, type of sanctions leveled against the disruptive student.

I remember when I was 10. I was a mouthy straight A know-it-all and drove my teachers nuts. I had to copy a page out of the dictionary, and the teacher called my parents to let them know the punishment. My mom said, "Okay", hung up the phone, and rolled her eyes. She wasn't angry - I'd already told her that I got to copy the dictionary page, and was learning MANY new words I could use at school.

There were other times, however, when the principal took a rubber hose to a students and whacked the tar out of the miscreants. These were kids who were only 7-9 yrs old. That DEFINITELY created both physical and mental/emotional scarring on those kids.

I think holding a sign letting people know what you did wrong in class would have embarrassed the heck out of me, but I don't think it would have made scars on my tender little psyche. What other options can parents take now? The teachers have virtually no recourse to punish students anymore. And the students KNOW this. I think the sign-holding was a good idea. Just IMHO

[fccool]

That type of punishment is absolutely inappropriate and can leave long-lasting scars.

Not only that, but it's quite ineffective as it lacks explanation. The kid probably still wonders about what he has done wrong, or he thinks that he was wrong still not understanding why. Punishment without explanation is ineffective.

[Liz]

The only problem I have with this, is that I think three hours for an 8 year old is a bit too long. Perhaps only thirty minutes to an hour would have gotten the point across?

I know that in the schools around here, the teachers really don't have much wriggle room for discipline. It is a "zero-tolerance" school for the "biggies" like bullying or truancy, but for just "lazy" behaviour or mouthyness, the teacher's can't *do* anything--call the parents and get the same attitude? So you are probably going to see more and more different forms of punishment to correct these forms of misbehaviour.

[Liz]

Quote:

Not only that, but it's quite ineffective as it lacks explanation. The kid probably still wonders about what he has done wrong, or he thinks that he was wrong still not understanding why. Punishment without explanation is ineffective.

He was holding a sign that explains what he did wrong. The sign said "I was rude to my teacher", surely in the three hours he was holding that sign he read what it said. LOL

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: David Koot

That type of punishment is absolutely inappropriate and can leave long-lasting scars.

Not only that, but it's quite ineffective as it lacks explanation. The kid probably still wonders about what he has done wrong, or he thinks that he was wrong still not understanding why. Punishment without explanation is ineffective.

This child by the age of eight should have been old enough to understand respect for his teacher and if he was being rude. It also appears he did have an understanding of what he did wrong.

I would guess this is not going to be repeated and if not was certainly effective.

My great aunt was left a young mother of eight children to raise.

One of her sons at age fifteen decided to test his mother's resolve. Drastic yes, right, don't know, but it had the desired effect.

He asked for permission to sit with some teenage friends during the worship service. Mom gave permission, with the condition that he remember to conduct himself in a responsibile manner. The boys soon became a little noisy, they were warned and disregarded. They began playfully punching one another and generally acting like fifteen year olds without restraint. He had been warned prior to sabbath service what would happen if he disregarded mom's instruction, and twice during service. He ignored both.

Mom marched to the pew the boys were sitting in and pulled her fifteen year old into her lap. She was a very large woman and was able to do so. That is where he sat for the rest of the service.

Incident was never repeated and all eight of the children took to heart what mom said.

All remained active within the denomination,gave her little problems raising eight children alone. This son went on to become a very well known missionary and when he told the story, he expressed gratitude for his mother and her firmness in raising so many alone.

He agreed that it was probably the single most embarrassing incident of his life. He was humiliated and angry at the time. Mom simply asked him if the consequences were worth the fun of disobedience.

[David Koot]

Just commenting generally, not replying specifically to Bonnie's post . . . The kind of humiliation that was described in Neil's post would reasonably cause indignation on the part of the child. I remember. One time in my entire life, because I was a cut-up in class, a bit too much for the teacher's taste, I was made to stand by myself during recess and do something--can't recall what it was. This was in eighth grade, I believe. That so infuriated me that years later, when I was in college, I happened to see the man one day when I was in the library, and I experienced a visceral reaction to him. If I were to see him today, I would without a doubt call him on what he had done and demand an apology. I am speaking as a Christian now. Were I not one, I would consider more forceful action.

Always, the child's self-respect and dignity should be honored. Treat a child with respect, not as a dog. But then again, I was pretty responsible as a child. In my entire life, my dad never laid a hand on me--yet I would not want to do anything that would make him unhappy, and there was no need to consider such measures. My mom tried the spanking routine--with a steel coat hanger, no less--and it caused HUGE resentment.

Dave

[Amelia]

I'm surprised the kids actually stayed out holding the sign and didn't just walk off. Unless the parent was there the whole time. The article doesn't say.

[fccool]

Liz and Bonnie,

This is not an explanation as it does not level with the child as equal partner in family business. If your husband treated you that way... telling that you are wrong without specifying the details, I doubt you would like that much. If you would like to talk Bible... then. We all know and practice:

1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.

2 "Honor your father and mother," which is the first commandment with promise:

3 "that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth."

And we expect the obedience yet there is also:

4And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

Very important. Without treating your children as human beings who need understanding and who need to be understood... you simply trying to beat the truth into them till it hurts. How would you like God doing this to you?

Respect for elderly, or for any human being for that matter is not automatic, but conditional. If any teacher is not treating the students with due respect and love, but as subjects that should never question things... then that teacher does not deserve respect as a teacher, just like a wife is free do divorce a husband that is being unfaithful. So you see, simple explanation that you are being disrespectful... is not enough. If I treat people the same way they treat their children... I think they would call the police . But In our mind it's OK to do so with our children, because those "things" are our "slaves". I beg to differ. They deserve proper, timely and reasonable explanation with discussion evolved. Otherwise they will view the world in terms of carrot and stick and do things for wrong reasons.

[Gail]

In the olden days they used to stand the kid in the corner with a dunce cap on his/her head.

Is this a different twist on an old trick?

[bonnie]

Just commenting generally, not replying specifically to Bonnie's post . . . The kind of humiliation that was described in Neil's post would reasonably cause indignation on the part of the child. I remember. One time in my entire life, because I was a cut-up in class, a bit too much for the teacher's taste, I was made to stand by myself during recess and do something--can't recall what it was. This was in eighth grade, I believe. That so infuriated me that years later, when I was in college, I happened to see the man one day when I was in the library, and I experienced a visceral reaction to him. If I were to see him today, I would without a doubt call him on what he had done and demand an apology. I am speaking as a Christian now. Were I not one, I would consider more forceful action.

Always, the child's self-respect and dignity should be honored. Treat a child with respect, not as a dog. But then again, I was pretty responsible as a child. In my entire life, my dad never laid a hand on me--yet I would not want to do anything that would make him unhappy, and there was no need to consider such measures. My mom tried the spanking routine--with a steel coat hanger, no less--and it caused HUGE resentment.

Dave

I am sorry, can't see how the eight year old child was treated as a dog. Consequences for your actions is the world's best teacher. The child does not have to be that old t understand certain behaviors cause certain consequences. I can't think of any child that does not resent at times, rules, restraints and discipline of some sort.

If a child is going to act like a rude, disruptive spoiled brat, his undignified behavior may result in a temporary lack of dignity on his part as he suffers the consequences.

In most cases the overall behavior,respect, and relationship children show and have with their parents is a pretty good indicator.

As for my great aunt,she may have taken drastic measures when she felt them called for, there was not a child that did not love to spend time with her. Right up until her death at a very advanced age. My own children included were always excited to know she was coming to spend a week or so. She must not have wounded the self respect and dignity of to many children.

No parent is always right. None have all the answers, but the relationship you have with your children as they grow into and become adults tells a lot.

[Liz]

[David Koot]

Just commenting and clarifying a little further on my previous post . . . what caused the deep resentment when I was spanked with a coathanger was a couple of things: first, the anger which I saw in my mother, some bizarre behavior which was unreasoning, quite irrational. There would come a look into her eyes, like she was possessed. Not that she was, just really bizarre. There was a form of brutality involved there. The second item causing resentment was the use of a steel coat hanger. I think that today, CPS would get involved if they became aware of such a practice.

What has typically worked well with me is a calm, reasoned approach, reasonable explanations and the careful appearance of being arbitrary. The kind of approach God has used in working with me. It makes me want to be and do my best.

As for making the 8-year-old stand out there holding a sign, that is absolutely outrageous, and if I were that child, being treated that way would not only cause resentment, but very possibly hatred as well.

I also recognize that some people simply may not comprehend how that could be. So be it.

Dave

[bonnie]

1 This is not an explanation as it does not level with the child as equal partner in family business. If your husband treated you that way... telling that you are wrong without specifying the details

You are of course assuming that this child was not talked to and have explained what he had done wrong.

Liking my husband to do the same has nothing to do with it.We are responsible for teaching our children, and at times enforcing behavior they don't like.

2. I doubt you would like that much. If you would like to talk Bible... then. We all know and practice:

Don't know about you, but so far have not found biblical principals to be wrong.

1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.

2 "Honor your father and mother," which is the first commandment with promise:

3 "that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth.

[color:#FF0000]Unless you are teaching your children contrary to God's word or civil law where it does not conflict biblically, where does this go wrong??

4.And we expect the obedience yet there is also:

And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

Again, I fail to see the conflict. To deliberately provoke a child to produce unwanted behavior or make them angry for the sake of making them angry is a bit different than the temporary resentment and anger over discipline or allowing them to suffer the consequences of their behavior.

5. Very important. Without treating your children as human beings who need understanding and who need to be understood... you simply trying to beat the truth into them till it hurts. How would you like God doing this to you?

No one said anything about treating a child less that a human being. Nor about beating truth into them for desired results.

Our oldest son walked at 8 months. As such he was always trying to get into something . While this young, what he understood was NO, he also understod that he needed to obey that NO without knowing why. Explainations at such a young age were worthless. As he grew older and could understand reasons were given, but not an option as to whether to obey. Older still he grew to understand that there were consequences for disobedience. Sometimes from my husband and I, sometimes we let him have the full measure from other area's. Then it was his choice. Live with the consequences if that was his choice

6. Respect for elderly, or for any human being for that matter is not automatic, but conditional. If any teacher is not treating the students with due respect and love, but as subjects that should never question things... then that teacher does not deserve respect as a teacher, just like a wife is free do divorce a husband that is being unfaithful. So you see, simple explanation that you are being disrespectful... is not enough.

You seem to be taking a great deal of liberty that this child was raised only with a simple explaination of being disresepctful. It also seems that you think that is what I am saying.First respect for the elderly for my children was never conditional. They did not have to like them,they could stay away from those they did not, but respect was always to be shown. Even the cranky,unreasonable ones. Same for any other adult. If the adult was someone that was abusive to them, they needed to come to us rather than be rude and obnoxious.

Nor is it the always the teachers fault in this day and age.

The laxness in raising so many children do not give them any kind of base. How they treat and talk to their parents is how they will treat and talk to their teachers

7.If I treat people the same way they treat their children... I think they would call the police . But In our mind it's OK to do so with our children, because those "things" are our "slaves".

Excuse me, for me "THESE THINGS that are SLAVES" were the most important,valuable "things" in our world.

Child abuse takes many forms, one for me is allowing the children to run the home. Parents that do not spend the time and energy training and disciplining when necessary maybe should have the police called on them.

8. I beg to differ. They deserve proper, timely and reasonable explanation with discussion evolved. Otherwise they will view the world in terms of carrot and stick and do things for wrong reasons.

Again, to make your point you are taking some pretty big leaps.

There is nothing in what was said to indicate children should not be given timely and reasonable explainations. Children being children, will push limits beyond those timely and reasonable explainations.

As for carrot and stick approach, that pretty well sums up the world. You don't study, you don't get the carrot, you get the stick of consequences.

You don't apply yourself to the carrot on the job, your stick might well be dismissal.

Consequences will always remain the best teacher after a young age. Those that don't learn by their consequences good or bad are usually those that have mom and dad smoothing over and making all better the consequences.

The best measure for me is not what other people say about how we raised ours, but what our four sons say at age 35-45.

Often those that have the most advice either have never had children or are making excuses for behavior they do not like as adults.

[bonnie]

Our three oldest ones were teenagers when long hair for boys became the craze.

They of course wanted to do same. We didn't like it just because we didn't like long hair on boys.

We knew it would be a passing phase and really didn't fight it, except for a couple of expectations on our part.

They were to keep it clean and combed. nothing more. If they began to look like they did not have acess to soap and water and comb, it was coming off. They knew this ahead of time. Well old enough to understand.

Didn't take long and they began to look as if they didn't have soap and water available. We said nothing and let it go for awhile, nothing changed. One morning one by one they were called to the kitchen and had a short haircut. Presentable but definately not the fashion.

We never had to say another word. They had the right to choose long hair, we had the right to expect it clean and combed. They blew it. No, they were not happy and I know more than a little mad. They chose their own consequences

And from the four that lived there, they are very supportive of their upbringing. Not everything of course,but in a much better position than those that advocate consequences for actions are all wrong

[fccool]

I had to make certain assumptions based on the case as did you. I don't know the full story but simply expressing my take on it, but neither do you... you don't know if the teacher is a bigot, in which case the kid has a right to respond and give his reasons. As I said, they are too... rational human beings. Are you being rude by responding to me? If that would be a conversation in public, would you be raising your voice? I hope you see where I'm going with this.

I have nothing to add, as arguing over this matter is a matter of personal decisions of how to raise children. I choose the way of reason and encouragement with minimal humiliation, you chose other way and its fine. Both of us will be accountable to God in the end. I guess one thing to leave you with is understanding that our knowledge of things is limited and that road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I am a firm believer in homeschooling as educating our children is our responsibility, not the state's or their peers'. And forcing them to undergo state education system IMHO is cruel, and I don't blame kids coming out of this system (not all) feeling confused and hopeless as it favors some and rejects others.

[bonnie]

Responding and giving reasons is quite different than being rude.

No, I did not choose humiliation for our children.

I did not always spare them the consequences of their actions. Old enough they were well armed with reasons why we expected certain things. None was expected just because we could or because we were boss.

It was expected for their good and hopefully to equip them to live in the world as responsible, christian,productive,good husbands and fathers.

Again, their opinion, that of their wives and children is the opinion that is important.

Why would I need to raise my voice??

Agreed,I guess one thing to leave you with is understanding that our knowledge of things is limited and that road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[fccool]

Bonnie,

Responsibility requires choices and facing of the consequences... not the simulated ones of wearing a dunce hat. The effect of the real consequences may be unseen and would not damage from child's perspective, yet this is our place to explain what these are, not to simulate those . But I understand where you are coming from and I don't disagree with you.

[bonnie]

I was not referring to the dunce cap statement,but more in line with this one saying I have chosen humiliation

and lack of reason in raising our sons. Again, you take great liberty with statements made

I choose the way of reason and encouragement with minimal humiliation, you chose other way and its fine

[Liz]

Didn't take long and they began to look as if they didn't have soap and water available. We said nothing and let it go for awhile, nothing changed. One morning one by one they were called to the kitchen and had a short haircut. Presentable but definately not the fashion.

This is priceless. You would have thought that after the first one started getting the haircut, the others would have made a beeline for the shower. What were the others thinking?? Surely mom doesn't have the strength to cut all of our hair?? That is just too funny.

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

Didn't take long and they began to look as if they didn't have soap and water available. We said nothing and let it go for awhile, nothing changed. One morning one by one they were called to the kitchen and had a short haircut. Presentable but definately not the fashion.

This is priceless. You would have thought that after the first one started getting the haircut, the others would have made a beeline for the shower. What were the others thinking?? Surely mom doesn't have the strength to cut all of our hair?? That is just too funny.

We lived on the farm at the time. The other two grabbed combs and ran behind the chicken coop and started trying to comb thru the tangles.

A little to late

[Liz]

Originally Posted By: Liz

This is priceless. You would have thought that after the first one started getting the haircut, the others would have made a beeline for the shower. What were the others thinking?? Surely mom doesn't have the strength to cut all of our hair?? That is just too funny. [/quote']

We lived on the farm at the time. The other two grabbed combs and ran behind the chicken coop and started trying to comb thru the tangles.

A little to late

Oh my goodness. ROFL That is why kids are such treasures, because they do stuff like this. This is the stuff memories are made of. LOL

[bonnie]

During their childhood with our four and my brother's four 4-10

somebody would have had to talk long and hard to convince me that someday I would love to go back and do it again.

I would do so in a heartbeat. It was the happiest time of our lives

What 8 kids that age can't think of to pull, especially on a farm is not worth mentioning

Bonnie

[fccool]

Bonnie,

Forgive if I offended you. By "other way" I did not mean humiliation... I meant whatever your way is . Every mother should be commended when it comes to this difficult task. Especially Christian mothers. But, what worked for you growing up, will not work for me. The will of God is not a dot we are to hit, it is a pasture with boundaries around it.