Freemasonary/Black Americans/Paganism

[Guest JeanMarie]

In another thread it was brought up that Freemasonic beliefs collide with Christianity and are much more compatible with Paganism. (BTW, I did get the book, "Pagan Christianity" - excellent book on how various pagan rites became twisted into the soul of Christianity.)

In my experience with Freemasons, just like Christianity, there are *good* Freemasons who would give the shirt off their backs to help someone, just as there are mirror Christians who would do the same. The Good Samaritan story, as it were.

And regarding Freemasons and the Black American (or other countries where Freemasonry is practiced), I can tell you this. In the 1930's depression in the US, my grandfather was a Scottish Rite 32nd degree Mason (one step from the very top of the masonic hierarchy). He was walking along the street and saw a work acquaintance of his standing by a lamp post. The black man was basically shunned from working anywhere because of his color. He had 4 kids and a wife at home. He had absolutely no money left and it was the dead of winter. My grandfather risked his membership in the Freemasons by giving this man several hundred dollars to help him see his family through that winter in the Chicago area.

Someone must have seen him, because at the next meeting of the Lodge order my grandfather was blackballed by one man who had it *in* for my grandfather. (Everyone is at the meeting is given a black ball and a white ball.. The black ball meant nay, the white ball signified yea) - and by that one black ball my grandfather's membership in the Lodge was cancelled.

However, once a mason, always a mason. When my mom moved out to LA, her father (my grandfather) gave her his Masonic ring. He told her if she ran into ANY type of problem she should show the ring to any of the railroad personnel, and she would get help instantly. Interesting.

I guess it's just me, but I'm not afraid of Freemasons. Maybe I should be.

[aldona]

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/155226/fpart/14

I also spend a lot of time listening to, and playing, music written by a well-known Freemason. His name was Mozart.

(yes - I do have fundamentalist Adventist friends who are classical music lovers but will not listen to Mozart for this reason.)

Quote:

In my experience with Freemasons, just like Christianity, there are *good* Freemasons who would give the shirt off their backs to help someone, just as there are mirror Christians who would do the same. The Good Samaritan story, as it were.

I agree with that. Maybe if Jesus was alive today, He would be telling a parable about the Good Freemason. (Or the Good Muslim). People who are despised and demonized by "good Christians", who never cease to remind them at every opportunity that they are following a false religion.

aldona

[Gail]

Yes, they are under oath to help a fellow Freemason, even against the laws of the land or any other law, as I understand it.

This is supposed to work in court as well.

Of course you will find stellar people in pretty well any organization!

But I don't know how many of us would feel comfortable with blood oaths (swearing to slit one's throat if information is divulged) or as a Christian, addressing a fellow human as a "Worshipful Master". I believe this was Ellen White's point when she talked to her Australian fellow Adventist so many years ago, that a person could not truly be a wholehearted Christian and also a Freemason.

Ellen White, in talking with this particular friend, interspersed her conversation with some of the secret Mason hand signs. This freaked the friend out, and rightly so, as no women were allowed access to the secrets of the lodge. She was not a Freemason, but was shown those secret signs.

Today there are books out there that detail the signs and also some of the rites, as ex-members have exposed these. I've read a couple.

At our store we also have an author who is an expert on the society who comes into the store every now and again. He lectures in churches around here. We sell his book. He was very interested in the EGW material on Freemasonry and the reason that Adventists don't have the problem with its infiltration as do most of the mainline Christian churches.

BTW- I've told this story before but one time when this author was in the store a man came in with an old Bible that he wanted us to help him identify. He had bought it at a flea market down in Arizona and didn't know much about Bibles.

Our friend immediately recognized it as a Freemason Bible. We spent some time with him as he walked us through the interesting illustrations, explaining the meanings of the various symbols. The Mason Bible is essentially a KJV with their changes, ie Zion is rendered Sion.

The Bible contained Freemason history including a list of all the degrees of the different branches of Freemasonry. Very interesting!

He bought this book from the man for his own reference. We were able to show the seller another, more conventional Bible as per his wish.

I'm sorry about the lengthy post! Will refrain now! :)

[fccool]

Here's a video by a fellow Adventist who addresses this subject.

video

[Amelia]

Then you would be afraid of me! I'm not a freemason but I was a Job's Daughter when I was young. My sister was Rainbow and my brother was DeMolay. My mother was Order of the Eastern Star. My uncle was a Shriner. In order for me to get into TJD I had to have a relative in one of the other orders who would vouch for me. Also I belong to the Grange my folks belong to so I can help with their seniors food bank and field trips.

With all that behind me I must be a pretty scary person!

[Guest JeanMarie]

Nope...you don't scare me. All my uncles were Freemasons, my mom and my aunts were Rainbow Girls.

Just can't find that sheepskin though. This will have to do: llama

edit: The Jesuits don't scare me either.

[Gail]

Quote:

I also spend a lot of time listening to, and playing, music written by a well-known Freemason. His name was Mozart.

(yes - I do have fundamentalist Adventist friends who are classical music lovers but will not listen to Mozart for this reason.)

I enjoy Mozart, too. One of the theories concerning his death was that he had disclosed too many Mason secrets in the Magic Flute and they killed him for it.

I don't know what the truth is about his death, but find it interesting that this theory is considered. Every Freemason is required upon entering the society to take on a death curse (blood-oath) that he will never disclose Mason secrets, even to his own spouse. That is perhaps where the theory originated.

[David Koot]

I must be a pretty scary person!

Well of course! We all know that Ames strikes terror in the faint-hearted.

[Guest JeanMarie]

That's almost akin to turning up your nose at and refusing to see the beauty and fragrance of a rose simply because the stem has thorns.

[Gail]

Not at all. Like I said, I enjoy his music.

I just found it an interesting theory, and I didn't originate that.

[jasd]

QR frame:

...perhaps this is just a little too close to the bone; however,

how many are aware of Ellen White's tombstone?

[John317]

What are you referring to? I saw her tombstone many years ago when on visit to her and her husband's gravesite, but I don't remember exactly what it looked like now.

[jasd]

>>What are you referring to?<<

Well, let me put it obversely - when walking through a cemetary, how, usually, does one identify a Mason's tombstone?

[aldona]

Hmmm...I've just googled "Ellen White Tombstone" but I won't say what I found...that would spoil it for the rest of you.

I'll just let the rest of this thread unfold. But this has just added to my list of Hard Questions...

aldona

[Amelia]

Well I didn't see anything out of the ordinary about the tombstone. What I did find interesting was the people buried in the area of Oak Hill Cemetary.

James and Ellen White

Sojourner Truth

W.K. Kellogg

C.W. Post

[aldona]

The Obelisk is well known as a symbol of Freemasonry. There are many Christian books, websites and other sources which pounce on any obelisk (e.g. public monuments, historical markers, symbols on currency) as direct evidence of Masonic involvement.

Here is a fellow Adventist who noticed it too, and is very concerned.

James & Ellen White Tombstone

Quote:

Another source depicts the obelisk as having been erected as a memorial to James White, before Ellen White’s death. It is a bit ponderous as to why Ellen White would condone an obelisk tomb stone to mark her husband’s grave! It poses a difficulty in remonstrating Rome for its use of pagan symbols in light of this violation by Adventists, no less the founders of the Seventh-day Adventist church.

Would some member of the church try to find out who chose that such a pagan symbol would be used to mark James White's grave? This is a sacrilege that should be searched out.

Quote:

I received a picture of the memorial from a friend. Apparently the obelisk memorial is to both James and Ellen White. Both name appear on it, Ellen’s name on one side and James on another. Every SDA should try to determine who chose such a symbol for our prophetess and her husband and get it changed to something more appropriate.

[Amelia]

Quote:

The Obelisk is well known as a symbol of Freemasonry

didn't know that.

[Neil D]

While searching on oblisks and freemasons, I found this didley....

The obelisk is, to quote McDowell and Meyer in The Revival Styles in American Memorial Art, one of the "most pervasive of all the revival forms" of cemetery art. There is hardly a cemetery founded in the 1840s and 50s without some form of Egyptian influence in the public buildings, gates, tomb art, etc. Napoleon's 1798-99 Egyptian campaigns, the discoveries at the tombs of the Pharaohs, and our new Republic's need to borrow the best of the ancient cultures (Greek revival, classic revival, the prominence of classical studies and dress, etc.) led to a resurgence of interest in the ancient Egyptian culture. Obelisks were considered to be tasteful, with pure uplifting lines, associated with ancient greatness, patriotic, able to be used in relatively small spaces, and, perhaps most importantly, obelisks were less costly than large and elaborate sculpted monuments. There were many cultural reasons for the revival styles of the nineteenth century. Freemasonry, while part of the overall cultural influence, was not responsible for the prevalence of obelisks. If you would like to read more about some of these styles, see The Egyptian Revival: Its Sources, Monuments and Meaning, 1808-1859, by Richard Carrott.

The source is here.

[Dottie]

I had always heard that obelisks were a phallic symbol.

[Ellen]

It's pretty common. My grandparents family's names are on a large obelisk in an old cemetery in Ontario, Canada. There are many in the large graveyard near us.

There are many mason gravestones as well with the typical mason symbol but the stones are not obelisks.

[John317]

>>What are you referring to?

Well, let me put it obversely - when walking through a cemetary, how, usually, does one identify a Mason's tombstone?

OK, now that I know, I do recall seeing the obelisk, but at age 15, when I visited her grave site, I wasn't thinking about it the way you and others are evidently thinking. In respect of Ellen White, I still am not.

Below helps explain why I'm not:

The obelisk is, to quote McDowell and Meyer in The Revival Styles in American Memorial Art, one of the "most pervasive of all the revival forms" of cemetery art. There is hardly a cemetery founded in the 1840s and 50s without some form of Egyptian influence in the public buildings, gates, tomb art, etc. Napoleon's 1798-99 Egyptian campaigns, the discoveries at the tombs of the Pharaohs, and our new Republic's need to borrow the best of the ancient cultures (Greek revival, classic revival, the prominence of classical studies and dress, etc.) led to a resurgence of interest in the ancient Egyptian culture. Obelisks were considered to be tasteful, with pure uplifting lines, associated with ancient greatness, patriotic, able to be used in relatively small spaces, and, perhaps most importantly, obelisks were less costly than large and elaborate sculpted monuments. There were many cultural reasons for the revival styles of the nineteenth century. Freemasonry, while part of the overall cultural influence, was not responsible for the prevalence of obelisks. If you would like to read more about some of these styles, see The Egyptian Revival: Its Sources, Monuments and Meaning, 1808-1859, by Richard Carrott.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Neil D]

I had always heard that obelisks were a phallic symbol.

Dottie, I am sorry, but your statement brings to mind a couple of lines from various movies....Remember when Shreik saw the princes castle and he made a reference that the prince made the castle so big because the prince was covering for something...

Let's move on...

ROFL

[David Koot]

Neil, you should be ashamed of yourself! But getting away from that . . . as for EGW's tombstone, how would anyone know if she had any input into its design? From what she has written, I doubt that she did. As for an obelisk, true enough about its original meaning. Yet, that does not mean that well-meaning relatives had that intent in building one as part of a tombstone.

Dave

[Stan]

When I say it it said

Ellen White

Mother

[David Koot]

Ijust looked at a photo of her tombstone. A pretty typical design, based on the cemetaries I have seen. didn't see any all-seeing eye or anything like that, just an inscription at the base, couldnt quite make it out but seemed to say something about family. No biggie.