Are hybrids the way to control high gas prices?

[Neil D]

In 2004 when MSN Autos first published "What Is a Hybrid?," car buyers were struggling to understand concepts like electric motors helping a gasoline engine and regenerative braking. Then, there were just six hybrid models offered: the two-seat Honda Insight; two compact sedans, the Toyota Prius and Honda Civic Hybrid; Ford's small Escape Hybrid SUV; and the Chevrolet Silverado Hybrid/GMC Sierra Hybrid full-size pickups.

By the end of 2008 there will be 20 hybrid models available, including a full-size pickup, full-size sport-utility vehicles and an ultra-luxury sedan priced north of six figures. But just as drivers are beginning to become comfortable with the technology, the long lineup of experimental and prototype hybrid systems being developed four years ago are ready, or nearly ready, for prime time—including three that use no electricity.

Ok ya'll...whatcha think of this? Not gonna buy a hybrid this year? ever?

What's good and what's bad about them?

[fccool]

I think hybrids are awesome! At least for now... to serve a transition to a more clean, efficient and less costly vehicles. These are kind of pricey though and their costs outweigh the savings in the short run. The problem is that no car could be considered as a long run investment... as soon as you drive it off the lot it looses 25% of its value.

I have considered on numerous occasions to converting my car to be a completely eclectic one. If I did it myself, it probably would cost me about 4-6k. THE PROBLEM is that it is too darn cold here in IOWA! As or right now there is no workable and efficient defrosting solution for electric vehicles. That's the only thing that stops me from taking this project on.

At the same time, I remember that back in the days cars were used to be much more efficient than today. But these were smaller, less featured, and did not weigh a ton. So it is a trade off between convenience and efficiency. There's no magic bullet as of yet.

[Dr. Shane]

I agree with CoAspen although I hold out hope that the cost of hybrids will come down as demand increases. I don't like the idea of ethonal either as it drives up the cost of food.

Here is the problem. The cost of gas is high because of supply and demand. Hybrid cars have the promise of reducing the amount of gas we use - thus reducing demand. This will come as the industry is discovering new sources of crude oil and building new refineries - thus increasing supply. That creates a situation of a reduced demand and increased supply. Developing economies could prevent demand from falling but if they don't, the price of gas will come down later in the cycle. When it does, hybrid cars will no longer be attractive unless the government mandates higher CAFE standards.

[Neil D]

I was told that the cost to produce ethanol was over $4.00 a gallon....Anyone know this to be true?

And what about those cars, going to India, where they are run on compressed gas....? What you think about those? Saw it on National Geographic [?] and thought that it was pretty nifty...I prefer that one to the Prius....

Also, someone told me that on the Prius, you have to change out the battery after a couple of years...cost is around $3k? Anyone know that for certain?

[David Koot]

I was told that the cost to produce ethanol was over $4.00 a gallon....Anyone know this to be true?

[Dr. Shane]

Battery technology has to improve. That looks to be our most promising alternative fuel. More money should be placed into battery R&D and less into ethanol.

[nuff sed]

If you just want to drive cheap get an old diesel and convert it to run on used vegetable oil. (www.greasecar.com) It might be wise to strike up a friendship with a local McDonald's or other Fast Food Restaurant manager beforehand, however. I would love to find an old Izusu diesel pickup truck.

[David Koot]

Isuzu? Give me a break! I have a 1978 Mercedes 240D. It is one of the best-engineered and built car in history. I use Chevron diesel in it, because of better performance. We also have B-99 veggie oil here, but it is a little pricier than regular diesel. Veggie oil is a good way to go, however. My car has not needed any modification. It runs fine on B-99.

Dave

[Dr. Shane]

The problem with plant-based fuels is they increase the cost of food. In developing countries that translates into starvation. So is it ethical for the western world to clean up the air by starving the developing world?

[nuff sed]

Isuzu? Give me a break! I have a 1978 Mercedes 240D. It is one of the best-engineered and built car in history. I use Chevron diesel in it, because of better performance. We also have B-99 veggie oil here, but it is a little pricier than regular diesel. Veggie oil is a good way to go, however. My car has not needed any modification. It runs fine on B-99.

Dave

Perhaps, in your rush to judgement you failed to notice that I said that I want a diesel Pickup truck..... I had a line on a 1993 Mercedes. It fell through because my pastor friend who had it really didn't trust it to continue running well and gave it to his grandson. I just purchased a wrecked '96 Impala SS for parts. We have six of them in the family and I figured we would be able to get our money's worth in the parts. It had only 60,000 when wrecked whereas mine has 130,000 and my wife's has 115,000. As regards the plant-based fuels not being feasible in the long run.............I am only trying to use "free" what my Chinese Veggie Restaurant owner has to pay to have hauled away. I don't know what B-99 fuel costs per gallon...........I do know that the roughly $1000 modification allows you to use the used vegetable oil straight after straining it.

[Sulla]

Hybrids are over hyped at the moment. You would be better off getting a diesel rabbit or something. But most people seem to get them for the smug factor.

I myself would prefer a Ford GT

(Turn of the volume some.)

[olger]

Smug factor. I love it!

[Amelia]

:s I can't get videos at work

[David Koot]

Perhaps, in your rush to judgement you failed to notice that I said that I want a diesel Pickup truck..... I had a line on a 1993 Mercedes. It fell through because my pastor friend who had it really didn't trust it to continue running well and gave it to his grandson.

1993? Well, no wonder! The quality went downhill after the 80's. My 240D has 450,000 miles on it, and is running like a champ. I do not expect to live long enough to put 1 million miles on it, but otherwise that could happen.

The 240D is a stick shift, very simple, strong engine design. NO onboard computers! It is one of the most reliable cars ever built, anywhere. A 1982 or '83 240D is good as well, those years featured self-adjusting valves.

Dave

I just purchased a wrecked '96 Impala SS for parts. We have six of them in the family and I figured we would be able to get our money's worth in the parts. It had only 60,000 when wrecked whereas mine has 130,000 and my wife's has 115,000. As regards the plant-based fuels not being feasible in the long run.............I am only trying to use "free" what my Chinese Veggie Restaurant owner has to pay to have hauled away. I don't know what B-99 fuel costs per gallon...........I do know that the roughly $1000 modification allows you to use the used vegetable oil straight after straining it.

[Bravus]

I'm afraid I'm with Sulla - the GT is very nice indeed (I believe Jeremy Clarkson bought one for himself after that test). It's ironic because I am a strongly convicted 'greenie' and have had my share of arguments about climate change... but I also like a fast vehicle! Of course, (a) there is at least one very fast hybrid out there - will go looking for linkage soon (though I'm sure it sounds nothing like the GT) and ( with motorbikes I get the best of both worlds - low fuel use, low emissions, mind-bending performance.

[Bravus]

There's this: http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/12/the_toyota_fths.php

We've mixed up a couple of issues in this thread so far - hybrids and ethanol (with a side order of vegetable oil). Different issues.

Hybrids at this stage largely still use petrol/gasoline, just less of it, but if they charge off the home grid they're still using fossil fuels in many places (unless they're using hydro or nuclear).

Ethanol, IMO, is a bad solution, because it competes with food crops. The markets are realising that, with stocks in ethanol-producers tanking. Ethanol seems like the solution you use when you don't want to do any work - no changes to filling stations, vehicles or much of anything else needed. But it's a stopgap. Hybrids to some extent fall in the same trap, though I guess things that improve the efficiency of electricity storage and use have potential.

Hydrogen fuel cell approaches have more potential because they are lighter and more efficient than batteries. There are problems to be solved in safe storage of hydrogen, and the same issue applies - how do we make (separate) the hydrogen in the first place? Probably with fossil fuels, nuclear or hydro. In other words, the 'hydrogen economy' is an energy transfer and distribution system, not an energy production system.

[Sulla]

By the way from everthing I have studied if everything said about the cause etc is true its to late.

And the world is not going to destroy their economies to stop and reverse it very quickly.

And thats without ever talking about what predictions and ideas are correct. So driving your hybrid might save you a little money on gas. And it might make you feel smug but it will not save the planet.

[Robert]

Battery technology has to improve. That looks to be our most promising alternative fuel. More money should be placed into battery R&D and less into ethanol.

I did some math on this. The pro is that battery cars put about 66% of the cost of fuel back in your pocket. Gas will continue to increase - especially with China and India coming on line. We must change or else....

Some of the cons with battery cars are:

1] A battery is expensive - about $2000 to $5000. At best they will last about 100k miles. However, this is still cheaper than gas at $3 per gallon and up.

2] The best mileage I've seen is 150 miles per charge. So you can't go too far without charging up, which brings us to another problem:

3] It takes about 8 hrs to fully charge a battery car. So there's significant downtime between trips.

4] If we all start going towards battery cars the price per kWh will skyrocket. The solution? Nuclear power plants. That has its own problems, but if we don't do something NOW we will be paying $6 per gallon soon.

The other solution is hydrogen. However, like the battery car, it takes energy to create energy. In this case the oxygen and hydrogen must be separated through electrolysis. That's more demand on the power companies.

5] Battery cars are essentially 100% electronic. The main components are,

a] battery

b] computer

c] 3 phase AC induction motor

d] 3 phase AC open loop motor controller (AC drive)

Electronic rates of repair are typically higher than your basic auto shop. In other words it won't be cheap when you car breaks down and it's off warranty. So buy an extended warranty.

[carolaa]

By the way from everthing I have studied if everything said about the cause etc is true its to late.

And the world is not going to destroy their economies to stop and reverse it very quickly.

And thats without ever talking about what predictions and ideas are correct. So driving your hybrid might save you a little money on gas. And it might make you feel smug but it will not save the planet.

I totally agree with you. And U.S. is most guilty of this, imo.

[Bravus]

true, but greenhouse is actually a temporary issue anyway, taking the longer view - peak oil is what's gonna move us on from the gas-guzzlers

[Sulla]

haha why for being successful? Remember is 1974 they were predicting that we were heading into another ice age. Time

The the truth is they have no idea whats going to happen and the predictions range all over the place. Really we just do not know.

But what we do know for a fact is that soon God will pull back his protection from the earth and we will have many great natural disasters. And wars etc. And remember all of this will be explained away for a long time as one natural thing or another. Just as it was in Egypt at first.

Its interesting since the time of Ellen White we have had the two greatest wars in history, and the development of technology to destroy the earth etc. Just the deaths from ww1 and ww2 were about 120 million people. Thats probably not much less than the entire population of the world in the time of christ.

[Sulla]

Peak oil is an interesting problem but not one thats going to happen over night. Gas in the US is overpriced now because of speculation not demand. And in the EU its over prices because of taxes.

But what we are seeing now is the natural power of supply and demand. Huge reserves that were not profitable before are now worth getting. Thats why you see so many new discoveries of oil fields recently like the ones off the coast of Brazil.

Also we have a huge amount of coal with the US having about 27.1 of all known world at the moment. So we can also use cleaner burning coal plants.

And thats not even to mention the fast strides being made in converting bio products into oil and gas.

So personaly I am not that worried about peak oil. Because with the prices high it makes it worth while to work on new sources of energy, harder to get oil, clean coal, electric cars and everything else. Its amazing how well the market works when given a chance:)

[Bravus]

Agreed (except about climate change - it is happening, we know it's happening, end of story). The market can solve this. But one step in that direction is to get rid of insanities like subsidies to oil companies that are already making trillion dollar profits, and some incentives for the development of new technology. Hey, if Detroit had got on with new tech 20 years ago instead of fighting to keep inefficient old tech, it'd be in a much healthier state now. The Invisible Hand can only do its magic if we let it.

[Sulla]

Quote:

Agreed (except about climate change - it is happening, we know it's happening, end of story).

Yes and no. The climate has and is always changing. The amount and degree thats its changing because of human actions is all over the map. With the market pushing people to make headline grabbing predictions. This is a problem that is well known. So the most extreme predictions get the most headlines and end up getting the most research money for the person making them. And if you figure out a way to link what ever science you want to do to global warming you will have better chance of getting funding.

And at the same time you have politicaly charged words used about scientists that do not agree with the hype like "global warming denier".

So sure the climate is changing its been MUCH warmer and MUCH colder before. But the bare truth is we have no idea really how much Co2 is speeding that up. Thats why things like predictions of the rise of oceans varies a HUGE amount.

Quote:

The market can solve this. But one step in that direction is to get rid of insanities like subsidies to oil companies that are already making trillion dollar profits, and some incentives for the development of new technology. Hey, if Detroit had got on with new tech 20 years ago instead of fighting to keep inefficient old tech, it'd be in a much healthier state now. The Invisible Hand can only do its magic if we let it.

I do not think they really need incentives for new tech. The market is pooring in HUGE amounts of money to research into it now and thats not going to slow down.

By the way we really need to be making use of coal. We have 265 billion tons of coal reserves more than any one else in the world. Enough to last another 285 years at the present rate of use. Can it be used more cleanly sure like http://www.futuregenalliance.org/

[Bravus]

Yep - the long term energy Holy Grail is fusion but the short term one is clean coal. But only if 'clean' means the carbon dioxide emissions are sequestered, not if 'clean' just means less acid rain and side product emissions so they power stations just emit nice 'clean' CO2.

BTW, Sasol in South Africa have been making liquid fuel from coal for years.