Think about this....

[Woody]

I guess I will have to go back and read your snippet of Paul in context to see if he contradicts Ellen White.

[fccool]

I would encourage you to.

[carolaa]

It is a sin to feel anger. If you feel anger ... you need to do something to correct that feeling.

Anger is not a sin. It is an emotion. Emotions are not right or wrong; they just are what they are.

[LifeHiscost]

If we are to use Jesus as an example I think we too often forget that Jesus freely expressed anger. In the temple Jesus was demonstrating a very angry message through his violent overturning of tables and swinging of cords. If we could give it modern words it would probably communicate the same as, "Get the f*** out of here!" And I think we can all identify with his anger at the situation going on there. I certainly can. It was a swindle of cosmic proportions that kept people prisoners of their own shame and tricked into paying for it.

[LifeHiscost]

It is a sin to feel anger. If you feel anger ... you need to do something to correct that feeling.

Are you sure, Redwood?

"If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them.."

1 Kings 8:46 KJV

Would that which makes God, Godlike, be sin to His children?

"Be angry, and do not sin. Meditate within your heart on your bed, and be still." Psalm 4:4 NKJV

To be fair, that scripture is translated somewhat differently in at least one other translation.

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Do you think it was in love that he was speaking about pharasies as a "perverse generation of vipers?". I don't think so. It was a statement made in anger.

True, Jesus did state a fact. Would it have characterised Jesus better , Who is Love, if He had hidden the truth about those to whom He was speaking. Would Jesus, Who is perfect and wishes all to repent that they may receive eternal life, gain His objective in their salvation by hiding their faults, or by revealing them in the strongest of terms in hopes they might listen when a more gentle manner had already failed to reach their hardened hearts?

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;

A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace. " Eccl 3:1-8 KJV

Regards!

[olger]

Christ had tears in His voice when he rebuked the Jews.

[cardw]

Quote:

OTOH I have never experienced anger from fallen human beings motivated by more than personal interest.

Most often about our own personal interests and inconvenience, very seldom about another's needs.

To me, this is really the problem with the "Christian" view of anger. It is never alright to defend ourselves. Are we not children of God too? Do we not have as much right as others to be defended? I think it is pride when one thinks they are more righteous for not defending themselves. I think it is pride that wants credit for making sacrifices. And this is in evidence when one is always telling others that they should be more humble.

And, while this idea that people seldom care enough to be angry about injustice, may be your experience, it is simply not true. My guess is this attitude comes from your reading of Ellen White. She is full of this stuff.

Most people want to help. And most people are angry at injustice because we empathize very powerfully with other people's suffering. There is a profound feeling of helplessness when we can't make a difference in the suffering of others. And it is this feeling of helplessness that often makes people jaded and indifferent.

When there is hope, people want to help. I have posted this link before, but take a look at it.

Why aren't we all good Samaritans?

I am not angry at you, but I have to admit that I am angry at this judgmental crud that passes for spirituality propagated by the negative view of humanity that Ellen White endorsed.

[fccool]

Quote:

And, while this idea that people seldom care enough to be angry about injustice, may be your experience, it is simply not true. My guess is this attitude comes from your reading of Ellen White. She is full of this stuff.

Most people want to help. And most people are angry at injustice because we empathize very powerfully with other people's suffering. There is a profound feeling of helplessness when we can't make a difference in the suffering of others. And it is this feeling of helplessness that often makes people jaded and indifferent.

When there is hope, people want to help. I have posted this link before, but take a look at it.

Why aren't we all good Samaritans?

I am not angry at you, but I have to admit that I am angry at this judgmental crud that passes for spirituality propagated by the negative view of humanity that Ellen White endorsed.

Cardw,

I really appreciate the link, as it should serve as a reminder to many that our actions indicate who we really are. I've read a similar study that indicated that most people did even the most charitable things for most selfish of reasons. That got me thinking and it turned out to be true in me. Whatever good I did is to gain some kind of favor with God... So it leads you to that place of "spiritual superiority" eventually, subliminally of course. Even today in my own church I notice people asking for help, and people who are most capable of giving help are offering prayers . I think much of it has to do with disconnect that we experience in day to day life, and we make up stupid reasons for not helping people... We know them all. They should get some work, they are lazy, they will buy drugs, they should go back to their country, we have organizations that take care of them, If I give then there's nothing be left for me...

But on purely human level often times I'm shocked to how selfish this system teaches us to be. During the Soviet Times I remember, people pride themselves with achievements. The collectivism was the ideal and helping others was a must to achieve it. There was little "progress", but overall the needs of people on personal lever were met. We did not have millionaires, but we did not have homeless and starving, and sick either. That aspect of the system I miss. Today I see the health care industry in US and it is sickening to me as to the degree of selfishness that can exist. It's just mind boggling. People who can not pay are being sent off to die pretty much. But the Universal health care is "evil" because it is communism, and it will never work ... what we really mean is that I don't want to give my money if other person's life depends on it.

You know, I often wondered about myself and my habits too. I would spend $30 in one night on entertainment at times, and I remember how hard my parents had to work to get the same amount just to get us food. You get in the mode of "I deserve it", and you forget about others who NEED IT, and need it desperately. And the more I got to think about, the more I realize that it is a conspiracy ... by us and for us to maintain our way of life. that we really don't deserve. When I shop at Walmart and look at a $3 Radio clock... whatever, I think to myself... there's just no way! But then I realize that the people who made this clock do not get the benefit, I do. So they are working for me through a third party in a sense, and they get almost nothing but a chance to survive. That's why they come in packs to this country, not to stay, but to make below the minimum wage which at times would get them in one day the months worths they would get home. It's hard for me to ignore things like that, and what hurts the most is that even if I wanted to, I could not help these people. I could alleviate their pain for a couple of days, but the system will not permit change. It requires someone to loose something in order for others to gain. So, that's why I have to trust that God will fix that stuff eventually, and that I can somehow be a part of it by partially alleviating pain of some people right here and right now.

Once again, thanks for the link.

[LifeHiscost]

I am not angry at you, but I have to admit that I am angry at this judgmental crud that passes for spirituality propagated by the negative view of humanity that Ellen White endorsed.

I would guess that we need to include Someone higher than EGW for propogating that "crud".

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" Jeremiah 17:9 KJV

Since we are plainly told, we of the children of God, have no righteousness of our own, I'm happy to hear you've received intervention by the Lord of lights, that has produced in you a pure anger, interested only in benefiting others in your anger.

But you are right. I haven't reached that place yet and we often, if not always, see others according to how we perceive ourselves.

"...so that no man may boast before God.

But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."" 1 Corinthians 1:29-31 NASB

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

I could alleviate their pain for a couple of days, but the system will not permit change. It requires someone to loose something in order for others to gain. So, that's why I have to trust that God will fix that stuff eventually, and that I can somehow be a part of it by partially alleviating pain of some people right here and right now.

Once again, thanks for the link.

I appreciated your whole post, fccool. And I agree with it for the most part. And the underlined above points to an important principle of life. While we are asked to take the gospel to all the world, we are only responsible as one member of the body of Christ, for fulfilling that in the sphere of our own capabilities. We each can be grateful for the grace of Jesus that forgives us where we fall short.

"..for all....fall short of the glory of God," Romans 3:23 NASB

Keep the faith!

[LifeHiscost]

Christ had tears in His voice when he rebuked the Jews.

Amen and amen!!

[cardw]

Quote:

Since we are plainly told, we of the children of God, have no righteousness of our own, I'm happy to hear you've received intervention by the Lord of lights, that has produced in you a pure anger, interested only in benefiting others in your anger.

But you are right. I haven't reached that place yet and we often, if not always, see others according to how we perceive ourselves.

This is exactly what I am talking about. It appears that you are angry at me.

And yet you appeal to your own "humbleness" "I haven't reached that place yet" as a reason to do the very thing you condemn me for. This is the crud.

The crud is not being angry. The crud is the continual appeal to our "sinful" nature and this false "niceness." I don't buy it.

I don't buy the idea that because we don't act "God like" then we are worthless. I find that within human limitations we can do a lot. Why condemn people for being human. Its like condemning children for not being adults.

Have you ever met a child who acts like an adult? Its kind of creepy and essentially emotionally dishonest. That's essentially how I view people who try and act like Jesus, which is something they aren't. The most authentic and honest thing to do is to stop acting and start being a real human being.

It has the advantage of being achievable and it allows one to be at peace with themselves. And when one is at peace with themselves they have the desire and energy to give to others without acting.

All this quoting of scripture and holier than though crud is a smoke screen for very angry people. I think Ellen White was a very angry woman. Not that she didn't have good reason for it, but those Victorian values really created some sick people. As a human being, I find her admirable. As a prophet, I find her despicable.

Its not because I think I speak for some God on high. Its because the results of following her councils did not bring me joy, but added great burdens that left me in a continual state of feeling less than, until I disappeared and some Ellen White clone showed up. And that's what I observe, to some degree, in almost every person that I have met who holds her in high regard.

So, while you may not agree, my anger is dedicated to relieving that suffering in every person I can communicate that message to. And that anger is dedicated to exposing the myths around any holy writings that teach that kind of false humbleness crud.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

we often, if not always, see others according to how we perceive ourselves.

The defense rests. Which is really why I believe debating the principles of God's kingdom provides a lesson in futility, mainly each debater is there, not to find new ways to personally serve more honorably in truth, but to prove how right we are already.

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

What ever you feed........

Grows...........

Not if you're referring to my orchids. teehe

[Bravus]

(in reference to the original post, not the rest of the thread)

Hence the recent plague of giant trolls?