Questions on Doctrine

[David Koot]

Sin- Coming short of God's character. Roman 3:23

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

[Robert]

Did he come with the nature of Adam before sin or the same weak human nature we have. Or in other words was he a true example for us. Can a sin predisposed person with the help of God overcome known sin.

[fccool]

2] We are born without the indwelling Spirit and therefore all we can do before conversion is sin.

Robert, how can we choose to follow God then? If we all we can do is sin, and choosing God is not sin, then how can we choose to do what we naturally can not do?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

Sin- Coming short of God's character. Roman 3:23

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

But the verse you quoted doesn't say, 'coming short of God's character.' It says, 'All have sinned.' It does not by its terms equate 'sin' with 'coming short of God's character.' It does say that 'All have . . . come short of the glory of God.'

Romans 3:21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. [Why a righteousness apart from law?] There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned [past tense] and fall short [present continuous tense] of the glory of God, 24 and are being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

1] All have sinned

and

2] All fall short of the glory of God. No one is measuring up. That's doesn't mean that we are not maturing.

[Robert]

2] We are born without the indwelling Spirit and therefore all we can do before conversion is sin.

Robert, how can we choose to follow God then? If we all we can do is sin, and choosing God is not sin, then how can we choose to do what we naturally can not do?

John 1:9 "There was the true light [Christ] which, coming into the world, enlightens every man."

Romans 12:3 [last part] "God has allotted to each a measure of faith."

[fccool]

this one came for testimony, that he might testify about the Light, that all might believe through him (small him here);

8that one was not the Light, but -- that he might testify about the Light.

9He was the true Light, which doth enlighten every man, coming to the world;

10in the world he was, and the world through him was made, and the world did not know him:

I'm not sure what you are trying to tell from that verse in John, so I won't jump to a conclusion until you explain your position.

1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

3For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

4For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:

5So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

6Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

Talks about believers and their gifts here, and not looking down based on spiritual gifts given to other people, and not unbelievers. Can't take a part of the verse and apply it to the whole world.

[Guest Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

Sin- Coming short of God's character. Roman 3:23

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

But the verse you quoted doesn't say, 'coming short of God's character.' It says, 'All have sinned.' It does not by its terms equate 'sin' with 'coming short of God's character.' It does say that 'All have . . . come short of the glory of God.'

[David Koot]

Please note the inclusion of the word "and"....it includes not only sining but includes the falling short of God's Glory.

[Guest Neil D]

Roman 3:22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Explain where the problem is, david...There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Adventism determines that "Glory" equal character.

Where is there a problem in this area....?

Transgression-

inherent to the definition of the word transgression is a willful act, to go beyond a boundary-

Online Etymology Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This

transgression

1426, from O.Fr. transgression (12c.), from L.L. transgressionem (nom. transgressio) "a transgression of the law," from L. "a going over," from transgressus, pp. of transgredi "go beyond," from trans- "across" + gradi (pp. gressus) "to walk, go" (see grade). The verb transgress is recorded from 1526. Transgressor is first recorded 1377.

The prodigal son was a willful transgressor...

And by no reply regarding iniquity, you are conceeding that I am correct in my definition...?

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Neither, man. I ENJOY these kinds of discussions. Man, you are cruisin' in my ballpark now, and I am enjoying myself.

But the question is are you doing it because you are seeking and you enjoy learning or are you doing this because you are just being a snot and wanting to frustrate? because if it's the latter, I don't want to do this....

[Woody]

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you are just being a snot

Are you calling King"Koot a Snoot or a Snot" ... IF SO ....

Stick your Dukes up ....

[David Koot]

Adventism determines that "Glory" equal character.

[David Koot]

As for Neil's scurrilous insinuation that I 'conceded' something about his custom definition of 'iniquity' . . . Of course not! No, I disagree with that definition. 'Iniquity' does pertain to an evil or immoral state of mind. While one could argue that all sin and iniquity are species o selfishness, still that is not the precise definition of 'iniquity.'

Dave

[Sulla]

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I guess the problem that I have is with definition of "natural predisposition to sin". We can have a natural predisposition to eat. We can have natural predisposition to sleep. Please explain to me how anybody have natural predisposition to gamble?

Gambling is exciting and very much like drugs. Thats why people lose everything thy have over it they get addicted to it.

* In action gambling, the gambler is addicted to the thrill of risk-taking as his or her “substance of choice,” much in the same way that a cocaine addict is hooked on cocaine. The action itself becomes the drug. Action gamblers typically engage in games with other players, since part of the adrenaline rush is in the appearance or identity as a “winner.”

* Escape gambling occurs when the gambler seeks to blot out some discomforting feelings or emotional life crisis. The action of gambling is secondary to the numbing effect of the activity. Escape gamblers prefer more singular outlets such as slot machines, where they can avoid human contact. Men tend more towards action gambling, and women tend to become escape gamblers.

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How can anyone have a natural predisposition to hate, steal, murder?

All of these thing can come as naturaly as breathing. History has shown us that in every culture in history. Its just below the surface. For example the startling thing about the terrible things the Nazis did was that most were done by ordinary people. Reserve units made up of older men that were upstanding people never breaking laws and church going Christians were used to kill jews. Doctors trained to heal killed the disabled and others. When the rules of society change to allow murder and other things the majority of society will fall into it without a problem. The more you read about Rowanda, Cambodia, Nazies etc you see how easy murder is for people. And we know steeling is as 99.999999% of people have stolen something. And hate comes very naturaly as well. Its part of our makeup its easy to do.

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The whole point of the sin and condemnation of sin is that sin is something unnatural and thus should be punished.

Yes it was unatural to the angels and adam and eve before the fall. But now we have a fallen nature and its as natural as sleeping.

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Just like it is unnatural for us to fly and we would step out of the airplane in attempt to do so. Death is a result from such unnatural predisposition. Not because something changed within the body, but because God withdrawn his presence and "life support" system due to the breach of contract which applies to us all. Jesus is a clause written in the contract that God wrote because he realized that we alone can not keep our part of it...

You are describing man before the fall. Sin was unatural to him. But after he chose to do it then it was the norm. Its the reason 99.9999999999% of people have stolen something, lied to someone, hated someone, lusted after someone, and broken every one of the ten commandments.

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PS, I've been Adventist for a year and a half.

Just curios as you did not seem to be settled in your views.

[Sulla]

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Most of the New testament is written from Paul's perspective that good works [aka behavior] doesn't earn you the right to be in heaven....Your verse from Jesus on perfection is not about working your way into heaven...

I never said anything about working your way to heaven or earning it. I am talking about accepting something God is giving you. He is giving you the power to be free from the chains of sin now.

[Woody]

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I am talking about accepting something God is giving you. He is giving you the power to be free from the chains of sin now.

Have YOU accepted it?

Personally ... I've never in all my life met anyone who has accept this gift wholely. If someone had ... they would be the walking example of perfection.

[Sulla]

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The question is all wrong. It's not about overcoming...its about redemption. Jesus came primarily to save us from "the curse of the law." Preoccupation with Jesus as our example - which is what is primarily taught within Traditional Adventist's circles, leads to legalism.

What leads to legalism and the other extreme is an unbalanced teaching.

Faith and works are two oars which we must use equally if we {would} press our way up the stream against the current of unbelief. {FLB 115.6}

The so-called faith that does not work by love and purify the soul will not justify any man. "Ye see," says the apostle, "how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." James 2:24. Abraham believed God. How do we know that he believed? His works testified to the character of his faith, and his faith was accounted to him for righteousness. We need the faith of Abraham in our day, to lighten the darkness that gathers around us, shutting out the sweet sunlight of God's love, and dwarfing spiritual growth. Our faith should be prolific of good works; for faith without works is dead.

116

{FLB 115.7}

[Sulla]

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2] All fall short of the glory of God. No one is measuring up. That's doesn't mean that we are not maturing.

Yes as I stated before some believe the Christian life is having God cover are known sins but over time we are helped to get rid of them little by little. But there are problems with that.......

Christ's righteousness will not cover the unrighteousness of any one. "All unrighteousness is sin," and "sin is the transgression of the law," therefore, those who are breaking the law of God and teaching others to break it, will not be covered with the garments of Christ's righteousness. He came not to save men in their sins; but from their sins. "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected; hereby know we that we are in him." These utterances are weighty, and should be duly considered. "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned [transgressed the law], we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." "My little children, these things I write unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." We need an advocate with the Father, because it is the Father's law that we have broken. We need to repent of our transgression, and return to our allegiance to God. "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins: and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not; whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." Here it is plainly stated that whosoever abideth in Christ will not be a transgressor of the law of God. {RH, July 24, 1888 par. 12}

[fccool]

Gambling is exciting and very much like drugs. Thats why people lose everything thy have over it they get addicted to it.

* In action gambling, the gambler is addicted to the thrill of risk-taking as his or her “substance of choice,” much in the same way that a cocaine addict is hooked on cocaine. The action itself becomes the drug. Action gamblers typically engage in games with other players, since part of the adrenaline rush is in the appearance or identity as a “winner.”

* Escape gambling occurs when the gambler seeks to blot out some discomforting feelings or emotional life crisis. The action of gambling is secondary to the numbing effect of the activity. Escape gamblers prefer more singular outlets such as slot machines, where they can avoid human contact. Men tend more towards action gambling, and women tend to become escape gamblers.

Exactly my point. It is an acquired and unnatural thing, that's why we deem it as such. If it was a natural thing, then we would not view it as wrong. Granted, that most of the people do not thing of gambling as something wrong, as most gamble at some point of their life, whether it is in casino, or taking uneducated risks "leaving it to chance"

All of these thing can come as naturaly as breathing. History has shown us that in every culture in history. Its just below the surface. For example the startling thing about the terrible things the Nazis did was that most were done by ordinary people. Reserve units made up of older men that were upstanding people never breaking laws and church going Christians were used to kill jews. Doctors trained to heal killed the disabled and others. When the rules of society change to allow murder and other things the majority of society will fall into it without a problem. The more you read about Rowanda, Cambodia, Nazies etc you see how easy murder is for people. And we know steeling is as 99.999999% of people have stolen something. And hate comes very naturaly as well. Its part of our makeup its easy to do.

Again, people do not go to such extremes because they left "untented". Nazi Germany was a perfect example of the brainwashed nature that I'm trying to demonstrate, and that becoming a Christian does not make you immune to such nature. Without Nazi propoganda, there would not be Nazi Germany. Without Satan and his angels, we would not have the earth that we have today. I know that this view may cause people to blame others for their mistakes, but that's exactly what Adam and Eve did, and they did not have "sinful nature" in the beginning. Adam blamed Eve, and Eve blamed the serpent.

Either way, the facts remain the same and that we are agents of our wrongdoings, with or without sexually transmitted sinful nature.

Yes it was unatural to the angels and adam and eve before the fall. But now we have a fallen nature and its as natural as sleeping.

Without Satan falling, I doubt there would be sin today. God is allowing Satan's circus to run to demonstrate precisely that. If we choose Satan's ways, then we are doomed to death.

Without Satan's fall, the entire doctrine of sin would no have made any sense. It would just be a feisty God who wants humans to pay a terrible price for biting off a piece of fruit. It was much more than that. It was to demonstrate the whole Universe that God knows what he is talking about.

You are describing man before the fall. Sin was unatural to him. But after he chose to do it then it was the norm. Its the reason 99.9999999999% of people have stolen something, lied to someone, hated someone, lusted after someone, and broken every one of the ten commandments.

Sin is never the norm. If you take that we are born with a nature that naturally rejects God without any cause, then it would mean that Romans 9 tells us that God devoiced for it to be that way. He chooses some for destruction, and others for everlasting life. We can do nothing, even choice is made for us before we even make the choice. I don't see you presenting any other way for me to reconcile the view of "can not do good by nature", and "can choose God". You can't have both. Either choosing God constitutes "good" or it does not.

As unregenerate gentiles, people do not dot break the law of God by every though, word, or action... So there are many things that they do without sinning. Would you agree, or disagree? If you agree, then how do you explain some of their natural explanation to do good in light of your view?

Just curios as you did not seem to be settled in your views.

I'm never settled on my views as I don't hold to the idea that I have arrived at "truth" and that my views need no further scrutiny. Even on this issue... I could be wrong.

[Guest Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

Adventism determines that "Glory" equal character.

Well, Adventism may determine that, in some contexts, but then again, we need the GOOD BOOK for that one.

[Guest Neil D]

Falling short of God's character shows that if we are not able/or will not live up to the potential that God has built into us, the results are that we will be failing to live up to His plan.

This allows a natural tendancy to fail, hence a going of our own way...aka iniquity. This allows for mistakes, the propensity to do our will, and not God's will....and of not having God's character in us.

The concepts of transgression as being a willful deliberate act of breaking the law of God shows choice in the matter of the right or wrong.

[Robert]

Explain where the problem is, david...There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Adventism determines that "Glory" equal character.

Where is there a problem in this area....?

Ex 33:18 Moses said, “I pray Thee, show me Thy glory!” 19 And He said, “I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you...."

"Glory of God" = His goodness - His righteousness.

Romans 3:12 "There is no one who does good, not even one."

Matt 19:17 "There is none good but one, that is, God"

Clearly all have sinned and (i.e., in addition to our past failures) fall short of God's goodness.

[Robert]

9 He was the true Light, which doth enlighten every man, coming to the world;

10in the world he was, and the world through him was made, and the world did not know him:

I'm not sure what you are trying to tell from that verse in John, so I won't jump to a conclusion until you explain your position.

[Robert]

The so-called faith that does not work by love and purify the soul will not justify any man. "Ye see," says the apostle, "how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." James 2:24. Abraham believed God. How do we know that he believed? His works testified to the character of his faith, and his faith was accounted to him for righteousness.

Here's the question: What did Abraham do that proved his faith before God? Was it circumcision?

No, read Romans 4:6 We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! [in other words Abraham stood justified by faith before he obeyed the requirement to be circumcised] 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.

Okay, Abraham's circumcision did not justify him. Then what? Let's go to the context:

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God.

What was Abraham's work that justified his faith in God? He was willing to take his only son and put a knife through him. Technically speaking that is murder and it goes against the moral law. So we see James didn't have the moral law in mind. Besides Paul is clear:

Romans 3:28 "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."

You see James isn't talking about the law. James is talking about works of faith. Likewise, Rahab the harlot also justified by works, when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way.

If you look at that story she lied in order to save the spies. Again, James isn't thinking of the moral law, but rather Rahab (who was a prostitute as that time) was willing to put her life on the line to save the spies. Why? She believed in God. Hence works of faith.

[Robert]

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2] All fall short of the glory of God. No one is measuring up. That's doesn't mean that we are not maturing.

Yes as I stated before some believe the Christian life is having God cover are known sins

I didn't bring up anything about known sins. I simply brought up that no one is measuring up to Christ's life as seen in the NT.

[fccool]

Robert,

By no means I'm questioning that we are justified by faith and apart from observing the Law, or as some call it... works. The problem is our view of works. Jesus did not separate physical from mental. He who hates... murdered already in mind. He who lusts... committed adultery in mind. So you can see that works can be both mental and physical. Everything that we do is a conscious or unconscious mental process first. So it is only logical that mental process, OR FAITH, comes before works. That's why you can't separate the two. Otherwise you have a person who believes what he does not do, or does what he does not believe.

As you can see from sermon on the Mount, mental precedes physical and is COUNTED AS ACTIONS, OR WORKS. Both good and bad. Faith in bad - committing adultery in mind and etc - leads to death. Faith in good - Jesus' and his teachings, which is law of God - leads to life. By nature of human being, these things are derivative. Faith and Works, Works and Faith. That's why they are used interchangeably in Bible and we have "contradictions". On one hand we are saved by grace through "faith", which is not of works. On other hand, we are saved and judged and rewarded by works. I don't think there is separation in Bible, as you can't have one apart from the other.

What Calvinists believe is that faith is somewhat of a work by itself. You still have to do something, which is to believe, in order to be saved. And certain passages in the Bible interpreted would mean that you can do NOTHING to get the salvation. Everything is of God, even the fact that you believe, because He has chosen you to be that way before the world was even created (predestination). The view that men are unable to make good choices do not help it either, because faith is a choice, and if you can not choose good... then God has to initiate it.

I used to believe that too, but not anymore. There are some great Theological problems with that view that would logically flow out of it. Basically it would mean that everything is already set in stone, and we can't change anything... we just need to live out our predestined lives, and if we lucky enough to be on God's list, then we get to keep on living in Heaven. I don't think that's the case, although I do believe that God restricts will of some people to make His plans known and acted upon. But He still does it within a context of choice. The rest of the Bible outside of the Romans 9 supports this view. Therefore I interpret Romans 9 a bit differently than a Calvinist would. I will spare my take on it unless asked to.

Nevertheless, I think it is clear in the Bible that we have a choice and that even when we don't make it... God works with us through reason, sometimes he gets our attention by way of a club, but it is reason that he works though. He answers our "how"s and "why"s. This can be perfectly demonstrated in case of Jonah. Jonah rejected God's will even after he was confronted by God himself. But he hated the evil people so much that he could not comprehend how God would even give them a choice in matter, after all that they have done. But the story clearly shows that sin is a result of absence of God's word. Without it, men can not separate right from wrong and live in the spiritual darkness, especially in a land inhabited by demons who continually deceive. God chosen Jonah, and not somebody he knew would not say "no", for that reason IMO. To demonstrate to both people, and Jonah, His love and that everything is NOT set in stone.

I just realized that you are Addressing Sulla on in this question and not me. So Sulla, I apologize for "butting in".