Questions on Doctrine

[Robert]

On one hand we are saved by grace through "faith", which is not of works. On other hand, we are saved and judged and rewarded by works.

Actually we are saved by grace alone, period. The other statements that seem to refute this can easily be solved if taken within its surrounding context.

[Woody]

Maybe we need to dig up the old equations so people can clearly see what they are saved by.

It is clear that we are saved by works. But it is not by OUR works that we are saved. We are saved by what Jesus has already done. We were predestined to be saved through what He did. The plan was laid before the foundations of the world.

[fccool]

Originally Posted By: fccool

On one hand we are saved by grace through "faith", which is not of works. On other hand, we are saved and judged and rewarded by works.

Actually we are saved by grace alone, period. The other statements that seem to refute this can easily be solved if taken within its surrounding context.

Robert,

You pick a sentence of mine and misinterpret it outside of the context of what I'm trying to convey to begin with.

I am not a proponent of salvation by works, and I simply pointed out that there are verses in the Bible that would lead some to believe either. My point is that we are saved by faith and our works will affirm our faith, so I don't think it is anything out of consistency what most of the Christian denominations believe in general. I don't even address this issue, but in context of us being able to make a choice to believe "God" which is a good work in itself. Just as I pointed out, Jesus did not separate works from desires of the mind. Either could be counted as sin.

Either view can state that we are saved solely based on faith, but Calvinist view that holds to total depravity claims that God has to initiate our belief to begin with by choosing who will be saved and who will not be.

[Robert]

My point is that we are saved by faith and our works will affirm our faith

As in Abraham and Rahab?

[Robert]

Maybe we need to dig up the old equations so people can clearly see what they are saved by.

Okay, for example Luke 20:25-28

25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

Now notice how Christ answers his question:

26 “What is written in the Law?” [i.e., what does the law state on matters of salvation] He replied. How does it read to you?” [what does it require?]

27 He answered: ”‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied.

“Do this and you will live.”

Do what?

Do what the law requires and in return you gain eternal life!

Okay, if we fail to understand this we will conclude that Christ is teaching salvation by works of the law.

Robert

[Robert]

Now my favorite one:

Matt 19:16-19

16 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Good Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”

Notice that the question is very similar to the expert in the law found in Luke chapter 10! Let's continue:

17 “Why do you call me good? there is none good but one, that is, God"

If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”

18 “Which ones?” the man inquired.

Jesus replied, ”‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’

[fccool]

Robert,

Do you believe that our CHOICE-DECISION to follow GOD (sorry have to cap it either to avoid disrespect, but I wish there were larger caps) is a good thing THAT WE CHOOSE, or do you believe that God makes this choice on our behalf?

In both cases, if Abraham or Rahab have chosen(action) not to believe God (just like Jonah did), I don't think that they would be considered righteous. I understand that it is not merely our choice that makes us righteous, but it is God's grace and our choice that have to be both present to complete the formula. Whouldn't you agree?

[Robert]

Let's talk about my two quotes found in Luke and Matthew. Then, perhaps, I can answer your question.

[David Koot]

But the act of going beyond a boundary determines a willful choice. Accidentally tresspassing is an oxymoron and shows either intent[willful disobedience] or stupidity...If it is stupidity, it is NOT trespassing...It IS being stupid.

[Guest Neil D]

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That is assuming the boundary is marked. Very often, it is not marked. I know this, having lived in the country for years. Often, you don't know you are on someone else's property!

But what you are describing is not willful...Transgressions, as pointed out in the NT text, are willful...

4Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

Same text, different translation-

4Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

The context of "transgression" is a willful disobedience...not an accidental one...

What you are describing involves this definition of iniquity-

6All of us like sheep have gone astray,

Each of us has turned to his own way;

But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all

To fall on Him.

This is poetry, and the construction is such that every line is repeated with a different way to approach the same subject. In this case, we are sheep going astray, doing our own thing. And that is INQUITY, which has been forgiven...

We use sin, where we should be, for accuracy, be using iniquity, a sinful state of being...And selfishness is our current understanding of a state of being....When a child says, "do it myself, daddy, do it myself", he is exercising his selfishness, or iniquity. So, to bring this closer to home, David, when you say that your being arguementive is " Nah, just having fun.", your selfishness is kicking in or your iniquity is exercising itself...and fustrating me...

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And that is something I can bring to the table--a great interest in accuracy. That is a good thing.

I will not rue the accuracy....but it does get tiresome after a while....

Quote:

We'll make you into a scholar yet!

I'd rather be an individual who is concidered smart...or at least, intelligent...but I will admit to not having patience for minutea [sp]...

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The TRUE boss made herself known once again this evening. Threaten my dinner, and I become all ears.

Hmmmmm....that must have been some sight...all ears...perhaps there was a tail and a long nose...and other horse-like chacteristics....?

Oh never mind.....being out in the barn is one thing...doghouse is totally a different matter..