America's Birth defect?

[lazarus]

Perhaps a more conservative voice may soften things up a little bit!

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said yesterday that the United States still has trouble dealing with race because of a national "birth defect" that denied black Americans the opportunities given to whites at the country's very founding.

"Black Americans were a founding population," she said. "Africans and Europeans came here and founded this country together — Europeans by choice and Africans in chains. That's not a very pretty reality of our founding."

As a result, Miss Rice told editors and reporters at The Washington Times, "descendants of slaves did not get much of a head start, and I think you continue to see some of the effects of that."

"That particular birth defect makes it hard for us to confront it, hard for us to talk about it, and hard for us to realize that it has continuing relevance for who we are today," she said.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080328/FOREIGN/746301768/1001

[Amelia]

I like that "birth defect" analogy.

[Tallmark]

That's garbage. We're so far removed from that, and who is she to talk? Graduated with honors from a high end college, Secretary of State, classical pianist.... some birth defect. The black people have a character problem. 70% of black babies born out of wedlock, 17 million black babies aborted since 1973. Most abortion clinics are located at or near black neighborhoods. They go to church to whoop and holler, but their lives remain unchanged. The black man (and all men really) need to get back to God, then things will change. When the man is where he should be, the families will follow.

[Gerr]

That's garbage. We're so far removed from that, and who is she to talk? Graduated with honors from a high end college, Secretary of State, classical pianist.... some birth defect. The black people have a character problem. 70% of black babies born out of wedlock, 17 million black babies aborted since 1973. Most abortion clinics are located at or near black neighborhoods. They go to church to whoop and holler, but their lives remain unchanged. The black man (and all men really) need to get back to God, then things will change. When the man is where he should be, the families will follow.

Have you ever heard of inertia? I don't know how old you are, but it wasn't so long ago that there were signs "whites only" or "colored only" in public places in certain parts of the country. That blacks couldn't vote? That the good jobs belonged only to the whites? That blacks who tried to change the status quo were flogged, hanged, shot or intimidated by many white people? And you expect the effects of generations of discrimination/racism to disappear just like that? Yes, thank God for those who have been able to break out of the mold like Miss Rice, and the Carsons and the Cosbys and many others.

My friend, you don't know how lucky our country has been that by and large those who have suffered injustices have not resorted to the sword to redress those injustices. It is nothing short of miraculous to me that there has not been more Black Panther-type organizations among the blacks. If I didn't know Christ and have suffered what so many of them have gone through, I'd probably be shooting at the perpetrators of injustices and blowing up their buildings too.

No, I don't condone the "victim mentality" that many have and the perpetuation/exploitation of it by some black leaders. I applaud Bill Cosby for speaking out against it, and that black guy (I can't remember his name) that was a prime mover in passing a proposition to end racial quotas and reverse discrimination in California and other states.

Gerry

[John317]

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said yesterday that the United States still has trouble dealing with race because of a national "birth defect" that denied black Americans the opportunities given to whites at the country's very founding.

"Black Americans were a founding population," she said. "Africans and Europeans came here and founded this country together — Europeans by choice and Africans in chains. That's not a very pretty reality of our founding."

As a result, Miss Rice told editors and reporters at The Washington Times, "descendants of slaves did not get much of a head start, and I think you continue to see some of the effects of that."

"That particular birth defect makes it hard for us to confront it, hard for us to talk about it, and hard for us to realize that it has continuing relevance for who we are today," she said...

I agree with that, Lazarus. I like Condaleezza Rice and hope McCain picks her as his VP.

I think that it will take about 100 more years to fully get over the effects of the "birth defect" that Rice is talking about. Many blacks have already gotten over it, but there huge segments of the black population which haven't.

Do you know about the soldiers returning from Vietnam, how they would flinch or even sometimes "hit the dirt" when they heard certain kinds of noises, had bad flash-backs and all kinds of psychological and emotional problems after being involved in that war? The war is over but the soldiers may continue to fight the war long afterwards. They're affected by the sounds of battle even after the battle is over and the enemy gone.

Can you see a parallel between those soldiers and the situation and experience of many blacks? They're still affected by the sounds and experiences of slavery and Jim Crow and everything else they endured as a race for centuries, even though the worst is over and gone. They're still flinching and "hitting the dirt" like the soldiers returning from war. Whenever I hear the sounds of certain kinds of helicopters, I can't help but feel what I felt in 1969, 1970. That's where my mind goes, even when the helicopter has nothing to do with the military.

I am not saying that there is no longer prejudice against blacks in this country, but it is now no longer the laws or the racism that is keeping people down. It is the blacks themselves who keep themselves from moving up. That is a hard saying and difficult to hear, because no one wants to hear these kind of things said about oneself or about others in one's family. I understand that, but it is something that must finally be said. We can't cure the problem until we first have a correct prognosis. But if we blame the problem or illness on a false cause, we will never find a lasting and permanent cure.

I see people all the time who keep themselves down by their own way of looking at life, at themselves and others. If we see ourselves as a pitiful victim and as helpless or as as a "niggah," for instance, and act on those feelings and ideas day after day, we shouldn't be surprised that they have a continuing effect upon our lives. We can't be successful in the society if we're not willing to play by the rules of the society, in terms of language, education, behavior, etc. If I keep demanding pity or rewards for being a victim, then that is how people will see me, rather than as someone in charge of my destiny.

[lazarus]

The black people have a character problem........They go to church to whoop and holler, but their lives remain unchanged

Well, you are an interesting fellow. At least you speak your mind. But what a mind.

Racism = a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

"The black people" ....now thats funny!

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Tallmark

The black people have a character problem........They go to church to whoop and holler, but their lives remain unchanged

Well, you are an interesting fellow. At least you speak your mind. But what a mind.

Racism = a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

"The black people" ....now thats funny!

I don't see blacks that way at all. I don't think we should put all of any race or nationality or religion into one category. For instance, in the matter of worship, I know from experience that blacks from Africa worship much differently from the way many American blacks worship. There's a church near here where the African SDAs worship together because they don't like the kinds of worship service held by the American blacks. There are many blacks that go to the Hill Church or to the University church in Loma Linda, and some go to the local church where I worship. So we do have a large variety of ways that blacks themselves like to worship.

However, that is, unfortunately, not what America sees or knows. What they see is the "typical black church," such as Jeremiah's Wright's church, such as the church that Obama described in his speech. That is how Americans largely perceive the typical black worship style. And it is, I believe, even somewhat the fault of blacks that this is the case, because when you talk to blacks about it, they will frequently tell you that this is "the black style of worship," and if you question it, it can be interpreted that you are racist or that you simply don't understand or appreciate the black community, etc.

And I think that is probably what Tallmark is referring to. He is referring to things as he "typically" sees them. I know that doesn't come close to describing most blacks, but there's a reason that he is referring to them in that way. It's a bit like Obama's description of his grandmother as having the reactions and thinking of "a typical white person." We shouldn't lump races and groups all into one bag. It hurts all when we do it.

[Amelia]

Quote:

They go to church to whoop and holler, but their lives remain unchanged.

This phenomenom is not exclusive to any one color of people. And I would be careful in deciding the hearts of others.

[Kountzer]

Originally Posted By: lazarus

Well, you are an interesting fellow. At least you speak your mind. But what a mind.

Racism = a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

"The black people" ....now thats funny![/quote']

I don't see blacks that way at all. I don't think we should put all of any race or nationality or religion into one category. For instance, in the matter of worship, I know from experience that blacks from Africa worship much differently from the way many American blacks worship. There's a church near here where the African SDAs worship together because they don't like the kinds of worship service held by the American blacks. There are many blacks that go to the Hill Church or to the University church in Loma Linda, and some go to the local church where I worship. So we do have a large variety of ways that blacks themselves like to worship.

However, that is, unfortunately, not what America sees or knows. What they see is the "typical black church," such as Jeremiah's Wright's church, such as the church that Obama described in his speech. That is how Americans largely perceive the typical black worship style. And it is, I believe, even somewhat the fault of blacks that this is the case, because when you talk to blacks about it, they will frequently tell you that this is "the black style of worship," and if you question it, it can be interpreted that you are racist or that you simply don't understand or appreciate the black community, etc.

And I think that is probably what Tallmark is referring to. He is referring to things as he "typically" sees them. I know that doesn't come close to describing most blacks, but there's a reason that he is referring to them in that way. It's a bit like Obama's description of his grandmother as having the reactions and thinking of "a typical white person." We shouldn't lump races and groups all into one bag. It hurts all when we do it.

African Americans quite often are emotional and expressive. It is exampled in the various musical genrres that started in the black community. It is exampled in our worship style. Personally I like it. I don't think anything is wrong with it. If someone else doesn't like it, I don't know. Try another church.

As for blacks making a lot of noise and not changing, that is true for any church, and any church member, regardless of ethnicity. Just because your worship style is relatively calm, and your exit church at 11;59 am doesn't mean you have a 1st class ticket to heaven.

DB

[Amelia]

Quote:

African Americans quite often are emotional and expressive. It is exampled in the various musical genrres that started in the black community. It is exampled in our worship style. Personally I like it. I don't think anything is wrong with it. If someone else doesn't like it, I don't know. Try another church.

As for blacks making a lot of noise and not changing, that is true for any church, and any church member, regardless of ethnicity. Just because your worship style is relatively calm, and your exit church at 11;59 am doesn't mean you have a 1st class ticket to heaven.

DB

Amen

[John317]

I'm going to ask you something that is going to sound bad and maybe prejudicial but it is something that needs to be said because as I study history and look around the world, it becomes an obvious question. I ask you this because I think I know you to be an intelligent person willing to talk openlyabout race issues. Also I ask it because you have lived outsidethe US and have probably given some thought yourself to the question.

It is this.

As I look around the globe, I see "success" and a thriving culture and society (generally) wherever English is the primary language. Look at the countries: the UK, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, the United States. The same could be said for Germany: it even rose from the ashes of WW1 and then of WW2 both times to become the one of the strongest nations of Europe. The same could be said about Japan.

Now contrast that with wherever blacks are densely populated. Anywhere I look on the globe, if blacks are the majority of the population, you have extreme problems-- poverty, violence, chaos, etc. Some of those places: most of Africa, including Sudan, Ghana, Liberia, Ethiopia, Angola,Zimbabwe, Chad, Somalia, Liberia, Tanzania, Uganda, etc. Also: Haiti, Jamaica, Dominican Republic, etc. In other words, there seems to be a pattern in all the places where blacks make up the majority of the people.

The same with those cities and parts of cities in any country where blacks make up the largest part of the population.

Germany and Haiti began 1945 about from the same point in terms of their poverty and economy, yet within a short time Germany was a very strong, powerful, growing economy, and Haiti was still in the same condition, without progress. Does "injustice" and "racism" account for the differences here? Or are there many other factors that come into play? For instance, how about the role of determination, hard work, ingenuity, education, overall culture, belief in oneself, behavior, bitterness, anger, laziness, drugs, gangs, values, etc.?

Before I say more on this subject, as to how this applies to the situation in America, I want to ask if your observations on the difference in the pattern I see are the same as mine? If you know of many, or any significant, situations that contradict what I have said here, please tell me what and where they are.

[Amelia]

John ,I know this wasnt directed to me but I would like to comment. What I see in most of those countries is government by dictators/military. In many cases all the economy is for the government and not for the people. I think the same may be true for those with a royal head of government. Then there is So. Africa. Would there have been any change at all if not for Nelson Mandela? And there is still a lack of parity.

[Woody]

Quote:

"The black people" ....now thats funny!

Hi Laz ... Correct me if I am wrong .... but don't they prefer to call it "The Black Community" ? At least that is what I hear many blacks call it. Is this right?

[David Koot]

Puzzling thing is, Redwood, blacks frequently speak of 'black folks', 'black people,' 'the black community' etc., but for whatever reason, don't want others to say it.

[John317]

John ,I know this wasnt directed to me but I would like to comment. What I see in most of those countries is government by dictators/military. In many cases all the economy is for the government and not for the people. I think the same may be true for those with a royal head of government. Then there is So. Africa. Would there have been any change at all if not for Nelson Mandela? And there is still a lack of parity.

That is true in many cases, but why don't the people throw out those dictators and put in governments that represent them better? Generally speaking, I think that history shows that a people get the government they deserve. That is, they get the government that they put up with and that they allow to exist. The Japanese people were dominated by their royalty until the end of WW2, but that is because they supported its domination of them.

Britain has a royal head of government, but it is not a dictator any more since the British people compelled their king to sign the Magna Carta. The British people want their royalty or it wouldn't exist. The same goes for the royalty in other parts of Europe as well as of Japan.

[Kountzer]

I'm going to ask you something that is going to sound bad and maybe prejudicial but it is something that needs to be said because as I study history and look around the world, it becomes an obvious question. I ask you this because I think I know you to be an intelligent person willing to talk openly about race issues. Also I ask it because you have lived outside the US and have probably given some thought yourself to the question.

It is this.

As I look around the globe, I see "success" and a thriving culture and society (generally) wherever English is the primary language. Look at the countries: the UK, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, the United States. The same could be said for Germany: it even rose from the ashes of WW1 and then of WW2 both times to become the one of the strongest nations of Europe. The same could be said about Japan.

Now contrast that with wherever blacks are densely populated. Anywhere I look on the globe, if blacks are the majority of the population, you have extreme problems-- poverty, violence, chaos, etc. Some of those places: most of Africa, including Sudan, Ghana, Liberia, Ethiopia, Angola,Zimbabwe, Chad, Somalia, Liberia, Tanzania, Uganda, etc. Also: Haiti, Jamaica, Dominican Republic, etc. In other words, there seems to be a pattern in all the places where blacks make up the majority of the people.

The same with those cities and parts of cities in any country where blacks make up the largest part of the population.

First of all, are your observations on the difference in the pattern I see the same as mine? If you now of situations that contradict what I have said here, please tell me what and where they are.

Germany and Haiti began 1945 about from the same point in terms of their poverty and economy, yet within a short time Germany was a very strong, powerful, growing economy, and Haiti was still in the same condition, without progress. Does "injustice" and "racism" account for the differences here? Or are there many other factors that come into play? How about place of determination, hard work, ingenuity, education, overall culture, belief in oneself, behavior, bitterness, anger, laziness, drugs, gangs, values, etc.?

As I've posted before, this world has problems all over. It is not just some people of african descent who are going to burn. Large numbers of people of every race and ethnic group are going to be represented in the lake of fire.

As for the worlds problems you noted: pollution, the ozone being depleted, greenhouse gases. Black, people of color contributed, but we had a lot of help from the so called 1st world, european countries and civilizations, who led the way.

Anger, laziness,gangs, oh my. You've heard of the siciilian mafia? Oh that's right, they are accepted becuase the godfather movies won some oscars. How about the irish mafia, jewish gangs and gangsters, the trenchcoat mafia, young kids, english speaking white kids, from suburban two family homes, shooting up other students and teachers.

Laziness. Everyone that is black is not lazy. I have two jobs. My wife has one. My stepdaughter is an investment banker. I know all sorts of industrious black professtionals, in and out of church. Lawyers, Doctors, cpa accountants, you name it. There are not enough, but there are many, and their numbers are growing.

Overall culture? Please! Black people have made great contributions in art, music, science, etc.

Drugs? cocaine, heroin, marijuana, etc, that stuff does not grow indigenously in the black community. Someone else has to bring it in. Most black people do not have the planes, trains, ships, etc., to bring that stuff in. white people and other ethnic groups do. America has a drug problem alright, but if you think it starts and stops with black people you are out of contact with reality.

This whole world is going to be burned down, not just the black community. You don't have to believe me. Keep it where you have it. You'll find out soon enough.

DB

[Kountzer]

Quote:

"The black people" ....now thats funny!

Hi Laz ... Correct me if I am wrong .... but don't they prefer to call it "The Black Community" ? At least that is what I hear many blacks call it. Is this right?

Let me see, you attend a predominantly black church, but you have to ask, or say 'don't they prefer to call it 'The Black Community'?

DB

[Woody]

Quote:

Everyone that is black is not lazy.

Neither are "most whites" racist as you previously inferred.

[David Koot]

if you think it starts and stops with black people you are out of contact with reality.

[John317]

...African Americans quite often are emotional and expressive. It is exampled in the various musical genrres that started in the black community. It is exampled in our worship style. Personally I like it. I don't think anything is wrong with it. If someone else doesn't like it, I don't know. Try another church.

As for blacks making a lot of noise and not changing, that is true for any church, and any church member, regardless of ethnicity. Just because your worship style is relatively calm, and your exit church at 11;59 am doesn't mean you have a 1st class ticket to heaven.DB

What you say here is all good as far as I'm concerned.

There's also a diffence-- a kind of heightened and more intense emtionalism-- in black literature, from poetry and drama to fiction. (It's about having "soul," and of being "down," man.) I've been studying literature, and particularly black writers in America, for years. There are parallels and similarities between Jazz and blues and black poetry and fiction. In fact, much the same parallels exist between "the black church" and American art, especially black poetry and the best of its fiction. It had a great influence on the Beats (virtually all white) and on the themes they chose to write about as well as the style in which they wrote. Norman Mailer wrote a very important essay about the "White [theN-word]," by which he meant white artists and thinkers who were taking on various aspects of blacks (as they were in the late 1940 through the early 1960s). This major influence can be seen in the maturer works of writers such as Jack Karouac and the beat poet Allen Ginsberg.

By the way, the popular style of black worship and the music that goes along with it is heavily influenced by, and can easily be traced to, the long years in slavery. In fact, a lot of things-- some very controversial and of a sensitive nature-- can be traced to those influences. These things can be read in history books about blacks that are written by some of America's most prestigious and respected black historians. But they are better left unsaid, I think, at this point. Yet these all have to do with the reason I said earlier that it is going to take many more generations before all these influences-- the effects of the "birth defects" that were mentioned-- are completely eradicated.

[John317]

...Overall culture? Please! Black people have made great contributions in art, music, science, etc.

I'm certainly not denying that blacks have art and music and some good scientists and doctors, etc etc. (I've already written about this in the last two previous posts on this thread, which you may not have seen before you wrote the above.)

I personally know some very good SDA artists who happen to be black. One specializes in painting influenced by German Impressionism.

But what I am talking about has to do with the (to me) obvious patterns of the general picture, not the exceptions. Even black art and music is in concert with much of the rest of the black community: for instance in its poetry, writings; and of course the themes that concern its poets and writers.

But please go back and take a second reading of what I have said, and see if you agree with my observations about the world patterns. Am I totally off the mark here? And if so, show the evidence that contradicts what I have said.

[Kountzer]

you made some comments about how the english speaking parts of the world are more civilized, while the parts of the world inhabited by Blacks are not. I don't totally agree with that model, but that is what you said, or something similar. My thing is what difference does it make? If you and your culture are intelligent enough to make enough nuclear bombs, & othr WMDs, to blow the world up 15 times, does that make you superior? Are you going to stand in front of Jesus and say 'i kept my lawn trimmed, didn't use drugs, and read great literature. Is that going to save you? I don't think so. If the world was to last another 1,000 years maybe it would be enough time to build a statue big enough to appease the ego of the great white man. I don't think you have that much time though. While you wasting time patting yourself on the back and critiqing what's going on in the black community, I think you need to spend more time making sure your own situation is in check. Cause there is a spirit and a message that is going out. Somebody in Africa, or India, or Central America is walking 20 miles one way to hear. Meanwhile, jaded North Americans are sitting around naval gazing and discussing who has the prettiest belly button, and what's wrong with the African American community. If you look around, there is a lot to be fixed in the community you live in.

[Kountzer]

I've read 'on the road'. I know of ginsberg, L Ferlingetti, Howl, etc.

[Stan]

Some days one never knows what the Saints are going to publish on here..

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

I'm going to ask you something that is going to sound bad and maybe prejudicial but it is something that needs to be said because as I study history and look around the world, it becomes an obvious question. I ask you this because I think I know you to be an intelligent person willing to talk openly about race issues. Also I ask it because you have lived outside the US and have probably given some thought yourself to the question.

It is this.

As I look around the globe, I see "success" and a thriving culture and society (generally) wherever English is the primary language. Look at the countries: the UK, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, the United States. The same could be said for Germany: it even rose from the ashes of WW1 and then of WW2 both times to become the one of the strongest nations of Europe. The same could be said about Japan.

Now contrast that with wherever blacks are densely populated. Anywhere I look on the globe, if blacks are the majority of the population, you have extreme problems-- poverty, violence, chaos, etc. Some of those places: most of Africa, including Sudan, Ghana, Liberia, Ethiopia, Angola,Zimbabwe, Chad, Somalia, Liberia, Tanzania, Uganda, etc. Also: Haiti, Jamaica, Dominican Republic, etc. In other words, there seems to be a pattern in all the places where blacks make up the majority of the people.

The same with those cities and parts of cities in any country where blacks make up the largest part of the population.

First of all, are your observations on the difference in the pattern I see the same as mine? If you now of situations that contradict what I have said here, please tell me what and where they are.

Germany and Haiti began 1945 about from the same point in terms of their poverty and economy, yet within a short time Germany was a very strong, powerful, growing economy, and Haiti was still in the same condition, without progress. Does "injustice" and "racism" account for the differences here? Or are there many other factors that come into play? How about place of determination, hard work, ingenuity, education, overall culture, belief in oneself, behavior, bitterness, anger, laziness, drugs, gangs, values, etc.?

As for the worlds problems you noted: pollution, the ozone being depleted, greenhouse gases. Black, people of color contributed, but we had a lot of help from the so called 1st world, european countries and civilizations, who led the way.

But those are problems that affected all nations, European nations as well as Asian and American. So that does not come close to explaining the pattern of world problems that I mentioned.

The main problems I am talking about have to do with lack of education, poverty, corrupt but popular dictatorships, civil wars, tribal wars and conflicts, famines, genocide ,illnesses out of control, etc. etc.

Quote:

Anger, laziness,gangs, oh my.

The difference is that these things are accepted and even defended in the black community. They have become seen as being a part of the black community. In the black community, gangs and gang affiliation is not often vigorously and openly criticized. Rather, they are commonly viewed as something to be "understood" and "explained," not condemned. The same with "anger." We are called to understand and to sympathize with "the angry black man." For instance, Wright's anger and rage is to be understood and anyone who does not "understand" it and who criticizes him for it, is seen as being racist and of not really understanding blacks-- as if all blacks feel the same anger and rage. There was even a famous book published called "Black Rage." It was a best seller and is still thought to offer legitimate insights into "the black experience," etc.

I don't know of any book about "the angry white man," or titled, "White Rage." So there is a big difference between talking about anger in the black community and anger shown or expressed by whites. Would you agree with that?

I have worked years with gangs, and I can tell you that black staff see the gang members and gang behavior and talk much differently than whites generally see them, especially the whites with little experience. The black staff see those things-- such as marijuana use, "sagging," "signs," "niggah" and "trash talk," gangsta rap, etc., etc., all as "normal". Whites generally do not. I recognize those things are bad, whereas for black staff, those those things are just a part of the black community. In fact, some of the staff "sag"-- wear their pants down below where they should be; and they have to be told to pull them up. "Sagging" is gang related behavior, but it has worked its way into the main-stream, even among some whites, because it's been "accepted."

These things, I think, are what make anger and gangs different among blacks than among whites and other races.