Adventist pastor converts to Catholicism...?

[olger]

"Former state representative and Seventh-day Adventist minister will be received into the Catholic church this Easter Vigil

By Anna Weaver | Hawaii Catholic Herald

When former state representative David Pendleton receives his First Communion and Confirmation this Easter Vigil at St. John Vianney Church in Kailua, he will be answering what he says was a gradual call of the Holy Spirit.

The lifelong Seventh-day Adventist said there was no “eureka” moment that led to his decision to become Catholic. Instead, Pendleton said, “It was awareness over time that Catholicism and Catholic Christianity were speaking to me, heart and mind, head and soul.”

Pendleton’s family has Catholic roots in the Philippines and much of his family there remains Catholic. However, when his grandmother immigrated to the United States in 1930, “it was a new citizenship, a new world” and she joined the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Pendleton, 41, was born in Glendale, Calif., and moved to Hawaii when he was in preschool. He and his younger brother were raised in a devout Adventist household. Pendleton went to Windward Adventist School and then Hawaii Mission Academy. In high school, he already had an interest in government and politics, and was elected class and student council president.

For a short time at La Sierra Campus, now a separate university from Loma Linda University in California, he was a pre-med student. But Pendleton soon switched to a history and political science double major with a theology minor. He went on to receive a master’s in religion from Loma Linda and became a Seventh-day Adventist minister.

As part of his graduate studies, Pendleton learned about various Christian religions. He remembers being fascinated by the documents of the Second Vatican Council, particularly the ones that focused on religious freedom, which he found to be “kind of the borderline between law and religion, government and religion, state and church.”

At the time, he was debating whether the best way to serve in his career was as a minister or in public service. Pendleton decided to get a law degree from the University of Southern California.

Legislative days

In 1995, Pendleton moved back to Hawaii and worked as a lawyer for a year before running for the State House of Representatives. He was elected and eventually served four terms as a Republican for Kailua and Kaneohe. During his time in office, Pendleton was minority whip, assistant minority leader and minority floor leader.

At the capitol, Pendleton participated in a Bible study group that brought together politicians of different political and religious backgrounds. Two Catholic politicians in the group were then state Reps. Jun Abinsay and Bob McDermott. Pendleton’s conversations with them and their example positively influenced his perception of Catholicism.

“They never tried to invite me to church or to give me some literature to persuade me about a doctrine,” he said. “It was just that friendship, that sincerity, that integrity, that Christian faith that pervaded how they conducted themselves at the legislature.”

While at the capitol, Pendleton also encountered Father Marc Alexander, who was then the executive director of the Hawaii Catholic Conference.

Father Alexander remembers Pendleton as a legislator who “could make both biblical and theological arguments, as well as, very secular arguments” with his law background equally well.

Pendleton kept in touch with Father Alexander, and remembers telling him recently, “Who knows but that my time in the legislature was brought about by God, [not only to] serve the people, but also for my life and Father Marc’s life to intersect, as well as with those other Catholic legislators.”

During his representative days, Pendleton also enjoyed reading the Hawaii Catholic Herald, which is sent to every legislator. “I would always say, ‘Wow, look at how much we actually have in common in terms of our perspectives.’”

After leaving office in 2004, Pendleton joined Gov. Linda Lingle’s staff as a senior policy advisor. In July 2006 the governor appointed him to the Labor and Industrial Relations Appeals Board for a 10-year term.

Faith quest

The “aesthetic experience” of Catholicism — Gregorian chant, incense, church architecture and religious art — had always appealed to Pendleton. But it wasn’t until 2005 and 2006 when he began reading extensively about early Catholic Church history and theology that he first seriously considered becoming Catholic.

“Some people watch television,” he said. “What really got me excited was just connecting with what the early Christians believed and taught and lived.”

He says he felt himself drawn more and more to the church. He especially liked the “breadth of perspective” among Catholics and the Communion of Saints, which to him was “a tremendous thing that you are a part of this large extended family.”

In March 2007, after further discernment, Pendleton turned in his Seventh-day Adventist ordination credentials and a few months later started taking classes through the RCIA program at St. John Vianney Parish in Kailua. This past fall he made the final decision to become Catholic.

“For me I didn’t want to be in a particular faith tradition just out of habit, or just out of comfort, or because the recent generations of my family had been there,” Pendleton said. “I needed to choose for myself and to learn for myself where God willed me to be.”

Tom Cajski, a friend of Pendleton’s from their time in the Great Books Club in Kailua, said he was surprised and delighted to get a call from him a few months ago asking Cajski to be his sponsor.

“I hope to stand by to give him my view as a long-time member of the church,” he said.

Pam Aqui, St. John Vianney’s RCIA coordinator, said jokingly of Pendleton, “He’s basically more Catholic than the pope.”

She said he has put a lot of thought and study into his decision and added, “We’re very pleased to have him. He’s a bright light in our community.”

Pendleton said that people at St. John Vianney who recognized him from his time as their district representative have come up to him and said, “Wow, Dave, you represented us for years in the legislature and I had no idea you were Catholic!”

He added with a hearty laugh, “And I said, ‘I didn’t know either.’”

As he approaches his “big day” of coming into “full communion” with the Catholic Church on March 22, Pendleton continues to be a voracious reader. On a recent day, he was returning “The Catholic Catechism for Adults” and Boniface Ramsey’s “Beginning to Read the Fathers” to the State Library’s main branch in Honolulu, which he said has an extensive collection of Catholic-related books.

However, Pendleton added, “I don’t want my faith to be just an intellectual faith. I’m learning more about the various devotions and finding myself blessed by those as much as I am by reading theology.”

His friend from their legislative days, Bob McDermott, said Pendleton’s thirst for knowledge won’t stop once he becomes Catholic.

“He’ll go down to the Pauline bookstore and he won’t know where to start,” he said, likening him to “a kid in the candy store.”

“He’s successful at everything he does,” McDermott added. “Whatever organization he’s a part of benefits from him. So I am sure our church will benefit.”

The challenges of conversion

The decision to become Catholic hasn’t been an easy one. His wife, Noemi, whom he met at college, has been very supportive, but it’s been a big change for the active Adventist family and they are “practicing Christian patience.”

The couple has four children: Roland, a high school senior; Raquelle, a high school freshman; Danielle, a fourth grader; and David II, a kindergartner. The kids are adjusting to being an interdenominational family. They go to Adventist services with their mom and attend occasional social gatherings at St. John Vianney.

The reaction from Seventh-day Adventist church friends and ministers has been mixed. According to Pendleton, some have been supportive, others disappointed.

“There are some Protestants who no longer consider me a Christian brother,” he said.

Pendleton said that adding to the difficulty of becoming Catholic was the fact that he’s a former politician and Seventh-day Adventist minister.

“An imperfect analogy would be someone switching [political] parties,” he said. “People take their faith much more seriously than politics so you can understand why some have reacted the way they have.”

“But for me, I just had to be honest with where I felt I was, where I was being led,” Pendleton said, adding he hopes that over time relationships can be healed.

He has only good feelings toward his Adventist friends, he said.

Whenever he’s tempted to feel sorry that a friendship has been estranged because of his conversion, Pendleton looks at how much harder it was for other converts like Cardinal John Henry Newman, who was publicly ridiculed in the press for leaving Anglicanism, and for the early Christian martyrs.

“There might be some who think of Sunday Mass as an obligation,” he said. “But look at the freedom we have. Christians were meeting in catacombs for fear that they might be killed by the Roman government.”

Pendleton said that’s why whenever he can he attends noon Mass at the Cathedral of Our Lady of Peace. “It’s such a nice oasis in one’s work day,” he said.

“I’ve always believed that your faith has to make a difference in every aspect of your life. It’s not just something you do when you go to a church service,” Pendleton said. His best witness to being a Catholic Christian is being a good husband, father, neighbor, and labor appeals board member.

“My only regret is that I waited until I was 41 before I realized where I belonged,” Pendleton said. “But maybe sometimes the Holy Spirit speaks and we’re so caught up with the busyness of life that it takes us awhile to hear.”

“This is where I feel I’m at home. This is where my faith has led me.”

(Friday, March 21, 2008)"

selected by olger

[Gerr]

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

An SDA minister worshiping Mary, and all the Catholic saints whom he knows are all dead? Repudiating the Sabbath for a bogus day? WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Embracing eternal torment & limbo?

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am dumbfounded!!!!!!!!!!!

Gerry

[Woody]

Quote:

I am dumbfounded!!!!!!!!!!!

Gerry

I've noticed this for some time Gerry.

[Kountzer]

The door is open both ways. I've heard numerous testimonies from ex-catholics that have become strong seventh day adventist christians. I've heard of a few that have left this church and become catholics. The adversary and a third of the angels left heaven, of all places, and have become what they have become. Conversionwise anything is possible.

[Amelia]

Quote:

I am dumbfounded!!!!!!!!!!!

Gerry

I've noticed this for some time Gerry.

Not nice Red. You know the rules.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Quote:

I am dumbfounded!!!!!!!!!!!

Gerry

I've noticed this for some time Gerry.

Not nice Red. You know the rules.

Don't worry. I've given him and his patron saint plenty of rope. If he will willfully and deliberately break the divine rules, what would he do with mere man-made rules?

Gerry

[olger]

Quote:

"Don't worry. I've given him and his patron saint plenty of rope. If he will willfully and deliberately break the divine rules, what would he do with mere man-made rules?"

That ain't bad Gerry. Ain't bad a'tall...

[John317]

What difference does it make? What keeps any of us from doing the same thing?

Why not become a Roman Catholic?

Why not believe in the eternal torment of the lost?

Why not believe that Mary is in heaven and mediates for us to her Son?

Why not believe that the Pope is the spokesman for God?

Why not believe that Sunday is the new Lord's Day and that the Sabbath commandment is no longer valid?

Why not believe that in the Mass, Jesus is actually offered as an unbloody sacrifice?

Why not believe that Church tradition is of greater importance than the commandments of God?

Could it be that somewhere along the way, David Pendleton either never understood the Bible or he lost his faith in it as God's word and put more faith in the publications of the Catholic Church? One has to ask how he could become a Catholic unless he first disbelieved the Bible as the standard of faith and doctrine and had serious doubts about Ellen White as God's prophet. He certainly did not believe in the Third Angels Messages or that the identity of the first beast in Rev. 13 is the papal system.

Of course David Pendleton is not the first SDA member or SDA pastor to convert to Roman Catholicism, and I have no doubt that we will see many in the near future do the same. What a lot of SDAs don't realize is that once we throw over certain fundamental teachings of the church, there is no real reason not to become Catholic.

[aldona]

I may not agree with his choice of denomination, but I can completely understand where he is coming from.

The following quotes could have come from my own mouth after I attended my first Quaker meeting.

Quote:

“My only regret is that I waited until I was [age] before I realized where I belonged, but maybe sometimes the Holy Spirit speaks and we’re so caught up with the busyness of life that it takes us awhile to hear.”

“This is where I feel I’m at home. This is where my faith has led me.”

Just because someone is brought up hearing the same doctrine repeated over and over, does not mean that it will enter their innermost heart/mind and be accepted as truth.

And even if it is accepted as true, it is possible to spend a lifetime among a group of people and never really "belong".

When you finally do find where you belong, it is an indescribable sense of "coming home." At last you are among people who understand you, and whom you understand, to whom you do not have to constantly explain and justify your way of thinking and being. At last you can "be yourself" in a way you never thought possible.

I envy those who have that sense in the Adventist church, but I am a 3rd generation member and had spend my whole life and never found it. The sense of being a "square peg in a round hole" had become so painful that if I did not urgently take steps to find a faith that my heart and mind felt at home with, I would have left religion altogether and become an agnostic.

Mr Pendleton has not "converted" to anything or "changed" his religion. The religion or faith which was in his heart was always the same. He has simply chosen to express it as it is, instead of pretending to be something that he is not, and to believe something that he does not.

"The man convinced against his will

Is of the same opinion still."

(Author unknown.)

[John317]

I think what you said makes a lot of good sense and I tend to agree.

It is sort of like what happened in Africa when so-called Christians and even SDAs took part in a massacre. Those people just showed that Christ really hadn't been in their heart and lives, or they would not have changed that way.

If God told us, "You can do anything you want and you will be saved," what would we do? Would we say, "Oh goodie, now I can do all kinds of sins I always wanted to do but couldn't. Get out of the way, law, because I'm going to sin now to my heart's content"?

In other words, how deeply committed and convicted are we as to what we say we believe? Is it just a superficial belief, a name we take, when in reality we don't REALLY believe it or know why we are SDAs? Are we SDAs just because we were "born" it or into an SDA family?

If we don't believe these truths for ourselves, independently and through personal study and prayer, we could easily end up doing the same thing that Mr Pendleton did and that many other SDAs have done.

[Gerr]

Aldona, I am terribly sorry that you don't have that sense of belonging. How does one feel at home in it? I have no idea except that after studying the Scriptures, there is not another church that I know of where I would fit in and feel comfortable in. BTW, I was a former Catholic.

Gerry

[aldona]

Aldona, I am terribly sorry that you don't have that sense of belonging. How does one feel at home in it? I have no idea except that after studying the Scriptures, there is not another church that I know of where I would fit in and feel comfortable in. BTW, I was a former Catholic.

Gerry

That's the weird thing. I have grown up in an Adventist family and for a long time did not know any other way of believing and practicing. I studied the Scriptures and E.G.White, and learned and understood all of our doctrines (and still do!) I can list all of the 27 (28 now?) fundamentals, and look up the Bible passages that support them, and assent with my intellect that I agree with these teachings and that they make sense.

I love my SDA church family - they are beautiful people, and I am fortunate to belong to a church which is full of warm and loving and friendly folks who love God and love their neighbor.

But even among them, as well as among the church I grew up in, and the SDA schools I attended, I have always felt "different." I know I am seen as "a bit different" - "a bit of a radical" - "thinks outside the box".

Going to SDA grade school, I was picked on by other kids because I was so quiet and introspective, serious, more interested in sitting quietly contemplating by myself than playing with other kids.

Going to SDA high school, I was teased by other kids for being a "greenie" or a "hippie" - always getting passionate about some cause, like human rights, religious liberty, the environment, peace, non-violence, animal welfare, etc. It was just too different from the Adventist way of being an "activist" - spreading the gospel, going on a "fly & build", handing out tracts, running an evangelism seminar - all worthy causes that I did not feel in the least called to do, and feeling guilty about it and wondering if I was really a good Christian.

When I was a medical student, and going through my "crusading vegan activist" stage, I remember telling a fellow SDA vegan health reformer about how much better it would be for the environment if everybody was herbivorous, how much more food could be grown to feed the hungry, and how much less cruelty and suffering there would be in the animal kingdom. My fellow vegan argued heatedly with me, discredited my statistics as a lot of rubbish, and generally made me feel like some kind of fringe weirdo for not justifying my vegan diet solely on what it does for MY body and MY health and MY well-being. This messed with my mind so badly, and created such a "cognitive dissonance", that I gradually became disillusioned and lost interest in the whole vegetarian thing and to this day I continue to eat clean meats and fish.

(Interestingly, at Quaker meeting I find myself surrounded by people who are vegetarian for exactly the same reasons as I was back then, and I can feel some of my old idealism gradually flickering back into life. It is ironic that I am going to find it easier, and more mentally and spiritually rewarding, being vegetarian as a Quaker than as an Adventist).

I didn't set out to look for the Quakers. I didn't even know who they were, except I had a vague idea that they were people who dressed plain and didn't swear oaths, and who would appear at peace protests with a sign that said "Love your enemies." I thought they were like the Amish. It all started when I did that BeliefNet quiz for fun (the one that gets you to answer a bunch of questions and tells you what religion you match most closely.)

My answer was: Quaker 100%, Seventh-Day Adventist 99%. I thought it was all very funny, and had a good laugh. Then I started to read more and find out more, and I very quickly stopped laughing.

I don't know if you have every watched the movie "Happy Feet", but if you have seen the part where Mumble the penguin finally finds a group of penguins that can dance like he does after a lifetime of not fitting in because he can't sing, that is the only way I know how to describe it.

When I attended my first ever Quaker meeting, I didn't have to be taught how to "centre myself" to focus on God and wait upon Him in silent prayer. It just happened automatically. It is what my state of mind naturally wants to do when I am left by myself to pray and contemplate. And I have very, very rarely managed to achieve anything resembling that state of mind in an Adventist religious service! - despite a lifetime of trying and wondering if I was lost because I would awkwardly decline and whisper "I'm more comfortable praying silently" when pressured to offer a prayer out loud to the congregation.

Even the quaint old Quaker phrases of speech like "that of God in every man" (what we would describe as the God-shaped void in every person's innermost self, that part of us which is capable of being influenced by the Holy Spirit), "I have a concern" (instead of "I have a burden" or "it has been laid on my heart..."), "I will hold you up in the Light" (when offering to pray for another person), fit naturally with the way I think and speak, much more so than the distinctive Adventist terminology I grew up with.

What makes it really weird is, as I mentioned above, that I really do still consider myself an Adventist. I agree with all of the fundamental beliefs (OK, maybe a few minor points of dissent on unimportant matters here and there, but certainly not enough to lose sleep or church membership over.) I continue to keep the Sabbath, and I believe Jesus is coming again. My diet is becoming more Adventist than when I was solely an Adventist. But these are just the facts that I believe to be true, and the Quaker way is who I am in my innermost being.

Maybe BeliefNet was right, and I really am 100% Quaker and 99% SDA. Maybe pigeon-holes are for pigeons, and none of us really fits in one standard-sized religious box. My spiritual walk is deeper and richer than ever, and I am closer to God than I have ever been, with a foot in each camp, and maybe this is how I am meant to live out how I "worship God in Spirit and in Truth."

In the early days of my Quaker quest I commented to my husband that if you could combine Adventist doctrine with Quaker practice, I think you would come as close as is possible on this imperfect planet to a perfect religion.

So that is the long-winded answer as to how I got where I am today spiritually.

aldona

(surprised by how much time this has taken, have to go to work!!)

[olger]

"When you finally do find where you belong, it is an indescribable sense of "coming home." At last you are among people who understand you, and whom you understand, to whom you do not have to constantly explain and justify your way of thinking and being. At last you can "be yourself" in a way you never thought possible."

Is that why you came here?

[aldona]

Not quite...I originally came here to fellowship and interact with Adventists from all over the world, and I value this forum and all my net friends, but...

I still feel like an odd one out, or someone marching to the beat of a different drum...

Hence my "location" in my poster profile. On the outside looking in. Missing something which is required to fit in but not really even knowing what it is.

How else can I explain the difference between what I believe and what I am?

aldona

[Jeannieb43]

Aldona, to me you're not "on the outside looking in," but rather, very much centered and extremely skillful in verbalizing your thought patterns. I think you're a great leader for many of the others of us here.

Please keep posting these thoughts. I believe a combination Quaker/Adventist outlook might be just a "missing link" we could all consider, right about now.

And my personal thoughts about David Templeton, since he lives and works in Hawaii, is that his "change" is mostly culturally motivated. He may be only going through the motions of Catholic worship, without consciously realizing what he's saying or doing. It may just be more comfortable to do what everybody around him is doing -- to "go with the flow" in order to "fit in."

I can't believe he really fully grasps the dogma of the Catholic church.

But maybe I'm just dreaming....

[Kevin H]

Just because someone has grown up in an Adventist home and studied to be a minister does not mean that they really understand Adventism. Some of our colleges have a strong Biblical studies program, but the current trend is to focus on the job of pastoring a church. The M.Div. degree requires only 3 Bible classes (at least one from each testament) and a couple of spoon fed theology classes, then when they are pastors they are too busy pastoring, often working close to 100 hours a week, trying to raise funds, turn in baptism numbers, repeating the same old Bible studies, that except for pictures, has not been updated from the 1920s (and if you study the 1920s in Adventism, the updates were not always for the best.)

Then if they go on for advanced studies, are they getting their degrees in Old Testament, New Testament, Biblical Languages or Archaeology? Very few, hardly any. The trend is advanced studies in Church growth or coming in second place is Church history. We have leaders who are experts in what Luther said about Paul, so they think that they are experts in Paul. So the trend for our pastors is a quick nod to the Bible when passing in school and moving on to the job of pastoring.

They were exposed to good ideas in their Bible classes. The conservative Adventist Theological Society are lightyears a head of our typical pastor, much less the more moderate theologians (I'm not talking about the confused liberal theologians). But they do not have the time to really learn the material at a level to feel comfortable teaching it, so it becomes an idea in the back of their memory as they become proficient at repeating the same old 1920s Bible studies which are handy, accessable and that they contantly repeat and thus memorize. Infact durring the 1920s, Dr. Lynn Harper Wood began to make some wonderful Bible discoveries that he taught to his students. While many who only heard him preach or only took a class or so with him learned these things, if he was not their major professor(and you can always tell who had him for a major professor)they just graduated, gave their 1920s Bible studies and Wood's ideas are only today starting to trickel down

So for our brother, let's not be too upset that he may be rejecting truth. He could have very well have not seen the truth to reject it.

Second; While we have some very just criticisms and conserns about the Papacy, we tend to go to the extream of making the Catholics the boogy man. The Holy Roman Empire was indeed the 5th head of Revelation 13, and pressent truth for the reformers living at that time and in the rise of liberty of conscience in the rise of the United States and the application of the American Revolution and Jeffersonian Democracy to religion in the forming of the Seventh-day Adventist church. However we are wrong to make the 5th head the entire beast. If we make the 5th head the entire beast, and people discover that God actually has true Christians in Cathoism, and that some of the "Facts" that looked like facts in the late 1700s and early 1800s turns out not to fit what actually happened, but we've been preaching them so long that they have become a part of our tradition, people are tempted to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Related to this is the issue of Vatican 2 and Pope John XXIII, and our ignorance of American Catholicism and traditional Catholism. Our making the 5th head the whole head and seeing everything that comes out from the Vatican as evil causes some problems with Vatican 2 and Pope John XXIII.

As Catholics came to the US, they were affected by American Protestantism, liberty of conscience and Mr. Jefferson's ideas, and the majority of "Catholics" in the US are theologically not Catholic at all but a very high church style of protestantism. Even the majority of priests. They may send their money to the vatican, they may be on very good speaking terms with the Pope, they may value the pope's views and insights, but in the end the pope is only one source of influence where they compair and make up their minds and may agree or dissagree with him.

The 1800s produced some of the strongest popes of history, but while they were forming better relationships with Protestant Europe, American Catholism was a thorn in their side. One pushed for the doctrine of Papal infalibility hoping that would bring the American Catholics back in line. It didn't work, and in fact backfired. A pope died. The decision on a new pope was taking longer than expected and people were anxiously waiting for a new pope. To give more time for the process, the cardnals decided to pick a tempory pope. A popular man, but he was old and dieing of bone cancer and the cancer was too advanced for him to do anything. They decided to name this dieing old man Pope to give more time on deciding on who the real pope should be.

Well, surprise, surprise, streanth returned to this man, and he lived much longer than expected, was able to get up and start working, actually took his position as Pope seriously, and called together Vatican 2 where he supported much of the ideas of the American Catholics. Now from a traditional Protestant perspective he did not go far enough, but God used him to shine more light into these people who call on God's name (thus showing that whosoever commeth unto him he will in no wise cast out) than they had in centuries. Were it not for the doctrine of Papal Infalibility Vatican 2 would have ended at the death of John XXIII. The Catholic establishment has been trying to back peddle from Vatican 2 ever since. (I was saddened to hear that Pope Benidict was one of John XXIII's engeneers of Vatican 2, yet has been spending the rest of his life trying to disemble what he made, I felt that he picked a good name for himself)

I noticed that Brother Pendleton was very attracted to Vatican 2's version of Catholism. If he did not really understand Adventism and Protestantism, and was trusting in traditions that we have about Catholics that did not meet the facts, and being attracted to an aspect of Catholism that has a fair amount of light. I'd be hesatent about dismissing him as a brother in Christ. We have yet to see how he responds to the trends in Catholism to back peddle from Vatican 2. We can pray that he (and other Catholics) will not only be faithful to Vatican 2, but grow beyond Vatican 2, and pray that he does not regress from Vatican 2 as the Vatican trys to back peddle. And we can also view Vatican 2 as a way how when Satan thinks he has everything under control (as he did when he inspired the doctrine of Papal Infalibility) how God can even raise up a dieing old man to thawart Satan's purposes.

[John317]

...So for our brother, let's not be too upset that he may be rejecting truth. He could have very well have not seen the truth to reject it.

Completely agree, but I would add that it's also apparent that he did not LOVE the truth. He may have seen it but he did not fully grasp it and love it so that it became a part of his life.

Quote:

... people discover that God actually has true Christians in Cathoism....

Yes, but that fact should be apparent to everyone. Ellen White even states it several times very clearly, and so that fact cannot be said to contradict the truth of the prophecy or of its application to the Roman Catholic Church and the papal system.

Quote:

Related to this is the issue of Vatican 2 and Pope John XXIII, and our ignorance of American Catholicism and traditional Catholism. Our making the 5th head the whole head and seeing everything that comes out from the Vatican as evil causes some problems with Vatican 2 and Pope John XXIII.

This is only true if people have misconceptions of church history and of the Roman Catholic Church and its theology to begin with. And of course many do have. For instance, if you are told that all Catholics are of the devil or are bad people, and yet you find out that many of them are as kind and nice and thoughtful as anyone you would want to meet, you might begin to have real doubts about how the RC can be a fulfillment of the prophecies concerning a great persecuting power.

Quote:

As Catholics came to the US, they were affected by American Protestantism, liberty of conscience and Mr. Jefferson's ideas, and the majority of "Catholics" in the US are theologically not Catholic at all but a very high church style of protestantism. Even the majority of priests. They may send their money to the vatican, they may be on very good speaking terms with the Pope, they may value the pope's views and insights, but in the end the pope is only one source of influence where they compair and make up their minds and may agree or dissagree with him.

The 1800s produced some of the strongest popes of history, but while they were forming better relationships with Protestant Europe, American Catholism was a thorn in their side. One pushed for the doctrine of Papal infalibility hoping that would bring the American Catholics back in line. It didn't work, and in fact backfired. A pope died. The decision on a new pope was taking longer than expected and people were anxiously waiting for a new pope. To give more time for the process, the cardnals decided to pick a tempory pope. A popular man, but he was old and dieing of bone cancer and the cancer was too advanced for him to do anything. They decided to name this dieing old man Pope to give more time on deciding on who the real pope should be.

Well, surprise, surprise, streanth returned to this man, and he lived much longer than expected, was able to get up and start working, actually took his position as Pope seriously, and called together Vatican 2 where he supported much of the ideas of the American Catholics. Now from a traditional Protestant perspective he did not go far enough, but God used him to shine more light into these people who call on God's name (thus showing that whosoever commeth unto him he will in no wise cast out) than they had in centuries. Were it not for the doctrine of Papal Infalibility Vatican 2 would have ended at the death of John XXIII. The Catholic establishment has been trying to back peddle from Vatican 2 ever since. (I was saddened to hear that Pope Benidict was one of John XXIII's engeneers of Vatican 2, yet has been spending the rest of his life trying to disemble what he made, I felt that he picked a good name for himself)

I noticed that Brother Pendleton was very attracted to Vatican 2's version of Catholism. If he did not really understand Adventism and Protestantism, and was trusting in traditions that we have about Catholics that did not meet the facts, and being attracted to an aspect of Catholism that has a fair amount of light. I'd be hesatent about dismissing him as a brother in Christ. We have yet to see how he responds to the trends in Catholism to back peddle from Vatican 2. We can pray that he (and other Catholics) will not only be faithful to Vatican 2, but grow beyond Vatican 2, and pray that he does not regress from Vatican 2 as the Vatican trys to back peddle. And we can also view Vatican 2 as a way how when Satan thinks he has everything under control (as he did when he inspired the doctrine of Papal Infalibility) how God can even raise up a dieing old man to thawart Satan's purposes.

I appreciate your good post here. Thank you.

[olger]

God's invitation to "Come out of her, My people" establishes that there are true believers in there and He desires for them to be apart from Catholicism. Lest they receive of her plagues...

og

[Tom Wetmore]

Aldona, I'm with you in that "outside looking in" bit... I can identify with your experience and personal journey. Believe it or not there are more Adventists in the same boat than you might think.

The fact that one man leaves the Adventist Church for another is not at all surprising. The fact is there are substantially more than 3 times as many former Adventists than there are currently "on the books". And that goes higher if you take out the large number still on the books who are no longer active members.

What seems to be missing from much of dogma oriented Adventism is the original and true meaning of church - community. That is the sense of belonging that you found among Quakers. Those churches which grow and keep their members understand and emphasize the community of fellowship.

I would invite everyone to take the Beliefnet quiz - Belief-O-Matic I think many here will be surprised at the results. Essentially it rates your personal beliefs in comparison to a whole range of world religions. There is far more to Pendleton's observation of surprise at discovering how much we Adventists have in common with Catholics. In fact, do not be surprised if you have a fairly high rating as Catholic from this quiz, especially if you consider yourself a conservative/fundamentalist/historic Adventist.

Tom

[lazarus]

Just did the test and I've discovered I'm a Quaker!!!!

[Gerr]

Believe it or not, you are exactly the kind of person the church needs. The church is growing fast in some areas of the world, but in general is in a rut in N. America. I don't how it is in Australia. And if we keep doing the same things, as pointed out in another thread, we will keep getting the same rutting results. We need your passion to stir heat up our lukewarmness, your critical thinking to challenge our canned answers. Often, it takes a person looking in to see problems that people inside can't see. And yeah, we need that Quaker sense of community! Right now, there is not that deep sense of community in our church. We meet on Sabbath, talk a little before or after church, and won't have contact again until the next Sabbath.

I am hoping to change this a little bit after our house is built. Right now we are renting a small place, and we have unpacked boxes all over the place. My wife is type A and would never dream of having guests while the house is in a mess.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Thanks for that questionnaire, Tom.

Hey, Aldona, I'm more of a Quaker (100%) than an SDA (88%)!!!

Gerry

[Woody]

Thanks to both Aldona and Tom ...

It turns out that I am ...

100% Seventh day Adventist ... which will surprise some ...

and

100% Quaker

How did I manage to be 100% of both ???

[Woody]

Thanks for that questionnaire, Tom.

Hey, Aldona, I'm more of a Quaker (100%) than an SDA (88%)!!!

Gerry

Now we see the truth. My views are more Adventist than Gerry's. Not a surprise to me ... but I am sure it is to Gerry.

[olger]

100% Adventist

95% conservative protestant

88% eastern Orthodox

100% olger