Weed and the church

[Guest truthseeker007]

Nowadays i am starting to become more and more depressed. In Holland we have a coffeeshop on every streetcorner where it is legal to buy weed. Scientifically, it seems that smoking weed isn t very harmfull. In Holland we even use it as a medicine against mental ilness. So my question is, is weed a gift or a curse when you smoke it?

[Woody]

Never smoked it ... wouldn't know.

[Guest truthseeker007]

Thanks dgrimm60. I think you are right. I can hardly imagine Jesus smoking weed. So i ll focus on the bible instead;)

[Gail]

Truthseeker, have you got some friends to keep in touch with when you suffer these times of depression? Thank you for coming here and sharing with us the things you do

I know it is tempting to want to do something to numb out the pain when you feel depressed but I don't think I know of anyone who has gained much from smoking pot. Do you?

I used to smoke pot a lot when I was a teen, but I did not have much of an interest or motivation in my life. The pot didn't help that situation at all. My zest for life came after I decided to seek the Lord and acquired a Bible to learn of Him.

I do hope that you can find some encouraging friends here. I once had a close penfriend from Holland and as she drifted into New Age beliefs (she was into "A Course in Miracles") we finally parted ways. I am familiar somewhat with the Dutch culture. I know that just about EVERYTHING goes there, as the country has a long history of tolerance.

Hang in there!

[Guest truthseeker007]

Thanks Gail for your support. Actually i don t have any friends, i rather wish to isolate myself. In the past many people have hurt me psychically, so now i reject people before they can reject me. It is not a happy lifestyle, but i don t see any alternative. I am one miserable piece of human being.

You are right about Holland being a little to tolerant. For instance, for murder you sometimes go 2 years to prison. Drugs also, is very normal in the Netherlands. New Age is also becoming more and more popular indeed. Can i contact your pen friend?maybe i am able to convert her...

Anyway, thanks again for your support

[Ellen]

As Gail said, you have some friends here. Keep posting and sharing. We all have our down days and need some contact with caring people.

I hope you have some helpful things to occupy your time - work? fitness? studying?

Your friend,

Ellen

[Amelia]

Im curious truth. So it's ok to purchase pot but what about smoking it? Is it legal to smoke pot anywhere, anytime?

[Kevin H]

Depression, as all feelings come from ways how our nerve cells release neurotransmitters. There is regular depression and clinical depression. It's been sugested that depression plays three roles in a normal healthy life 1.) It helps us know that something is wrong so that we can change it. 2.) It lets others know we need some more time with them and 3.) it slows us down to decrease the chances of doing or saying something rash that we would regret for the rest of our lives (or prevent us from living out the rest of our lives.)

In clinical depression one or more of these three nomal funcitons end up out of ballance with the rest of reality and life. Some are so focusing on something being wrong that they feel nothing can be right and they should give up. Others end up using depression and problems as the basis for their interactions with others, others either get so slowed down that they have practically stopped living, and can end up hurting so bad that they turn to anger or impulsive acts.

Normal depression comes and goes. Clinical depression needs some kind of treatment. There is both educational and medical treatments. Psychologists argue over which is more benificial, I'll let them argue over which treatment is best, but either way it needs treatment.

Some of the educational treatment that has shown to be effective are the books "Feeling Good" and "The Feeling Good Handbook" by Dr. David Burns, and the books by Dr. William Glasser: or Dr. Glasser says that a good place to start is to eleminite the 7 habits of miserable people (Complaining, Criticizing, Blaming, Nagging, Threatening, Punishing, Rewarding to Control) and replace them with "Listening, Trusting, encouaging, supporting, accepting, respecting, and negotiating differences.

Weed, alcohol, tobacco, drugs are all ways of affecting our neurotransmitters in fairly unpredictable and extream ways. If you are dealing with normal depression, let it do it's job and move on with life, the clouds will come and go. If you are having problems with your neurotransmitters, then why use the substances that will mess them up even more and where you end up depending on them to have the nerves release the feel good neurotransmitters instead of allowing for real happiness that comes from caring for God and interacting with others and being fair to the world around us and from exercise to allow the natural release of the neurotransmitters. And if you find that the natural / educational therapys need some help, then medication that does not go to the exteams that weed and others do.

(Note: One danger with the medical therapy; we don't yet have tests that see just which one fits your condition, so it's hit and miss. And sometimes, like with Schizopherenia, they have an over production of neuro transmitters in some parts of the body, under production in other parts and other parts where it is closer to normal. We don't yet have meds that can ballance them out, only turn them all down so that the over produciton is not as bad, but to try to not make the places with the underproduction worst) thus first see if the exercises and ideas by Dr. Burns and Dr. Glasser can help. Also, with caution I'd also like to recommend the writings of the poet philosopher Eli Siegel. His thought is tremendous and he was a head of his time. Sadly being a head of his time meant that people were not that welcoming of it and his students have become overly protective and have made it almost a religion (although a mountain out of a molehill, you can read some of the criticizms of how his writings and life has been dealth with by his students in a website saying that it is a cult. I hate that site, but there is some truth to it, but also read "Countering the lies" at the Aesthetic Realism website. The truth is someplace inbetween, maybe a bit closer to the foundation's view) But Seigel's work: such as "The Children's Guide to Parents and Other Matters" and "Self and World" are very useful and I find them dovetailing nicely into the works of Albert Ellis, Aaron Beck, David Burns, and William Glasser. They are focused on proper thinking. I don't remember if this is the exact wording in the quote but Mrs. White said "When the thinking is wrong the feelings are wrong and the thoughts and feelings make up the problem." (and may I also add to this reading list "Mind, Character and Personality" by Ellen White, and while a bit fundamentalist in it's outlook, I also like much of what Lois Egers says in her "Common Sense Psychology") I hope this helps!

[Guest truthseeker007]

@ Amelia. I assume you are going to visit Holland soon?lol. In most of the public places it is not allowed to smoke weed or hasj. However there are many cafe's where it is allowed. I think most people smoke pot at home or on the streets. In Holland it is as normal as having breakfast. Laywers, teachers, police etc. all smoke pot. So when you are standing next to a police officer smoking pot, he will do nothing.

@ Kevin. Wow i am impressed about the things you know about depression. I think i have got the clinical kind of depression. I am not even able anymore to think about things with a clear mind. ALl i can do is feel and i feel terrible so an intellectual solution seems out of reach. However i will not smoke pot these months because of my exams in June. Thanks for your contribution. How come you know so much about it?

[Tallmark]

I smoked pot for 27 years and had very few problems with it. I wasn't paranoid or lazy. Being hooked on something like that made me feel weak though. I have been sober for 11 years now, thank God!

[darlene]

Wonderful! God does great things in our lives, doesn't He? No, you may not have been addicted physically but, could it have been a crutch or booster to help you cope with life?

[Tallmark]

I was addicted Darlene. The though of running out was horrible. I am blessed with a body that has no withdrawal symptoms. I quit Coke-a-Cola and French Fries as well. Yes, these can be addicting.

[Dr. Shane]

I am a recovered alcoholic and drug addict. While I believe the Bible permits limited alcohol consumption, it strictly forbids drunkenness. There is a reason for that. In most people, a small amount of alcohol will be broken down and not cause a person to get drunk. When a person becomes drunk it is called intoxication. That is because alcohol is toxic. This impacts the mind and specifically our judgment. A vast majority of unwed mothers in the US become pregnant while intoxicated. Marijuana also impacts our minds and ability to make judgment calls.

There are drugs that are acceptable for medical purposes. These should be prescribed by a doctor and taken only in the manner which they are prescribed.

[Guest truthseeker007]

Dear Brothers and Sister,

I feel sorry when i say this, but i have decided not to become a seventh day adventist. Let me tell you why;

When i first saw the presentations of Walter Veith, i became enthusiastic and thought that he presented pure truths. I really wanted to become a good Christian. It costed me a year of college, my girlfriend, my friends, all of my time and lots more. I kept praying every night "please Jesus tell me what to do, give me visions" and "please Jesus free me from my addictions and let the holy spirit work through me". I ve been begging for about a year now, knowing i was willing to give up everything for Jesus Christ. If i could save Jesus by suffering 1000 times as much as he did, i would have done it. Why? because to me, it seems like Jesus is the only one i can look up to, and he is the only one whoms love is overflowing. Life doesn t have meaning without some blessed hope to look up to. So in short, Jesus was my only hope.

I ve struggled like hell with my sins, but legalism made everything worse. I ve asked the help of Jesus, but he didn t help me. I am very lonely, there are weeks when i don t talk to anyone. I don t even know how to have a conversation anymore. I ve been bullied all my life. Jesus was everything to me, my only hope. All the times i felt terribly lost, realising my disgusting nature and his perfect nature.

There are numerous reasons why i have decided to give up on the sda faith, even keeping the sabbath:

- IF the SDA church is the true church, Jesus should have helped me with my struggles. I ve asked so much in Jesus name, for example, to help me stop sinning, to get me into another football team, to give me visions, to give me books i needed to find out the truth etc etc. All of them i ve asked in Jesus name. I did not receive anything so i can only make 2 logical conclusions. 1. Jesus does not want me, he says he doesn t know me, so when i ask the Father in Jesus name i don t receive anything. If that s the case, Jesus is not so filled with grace at all and i don t have to feel terrible anymore for him dying on the cross, because he didn t want to die for me any way. All those statements about Jesus is love, Jesus is full of grace etc. have turned out to be fables in reality.

2. Maybe Jesus cannot help me, because i am stuck in a satanic delusion, so he cannot help me, even though he is willing. The SDA faith, theologically, is the most lazy kind of people i ve ever seen. Why?because they claim to have the truth, but there are only a handfull of people really trying to prove this. The rest of them believe everything the church says, without being critically. I ve asked such questions, many times, but the answers disturbed me. More and more i come to the conclusion that the SDA church is actually the 'mirror' of Catholicism. I think that maybe the SDA church has many truths, that should nowadays be discovered, but is in fact a satanic invention to rip protestantism apart.

I don t know what reasons Jesus have, not to help me, but anyhow, it is clear that the sda faith is not my kind of thing. Theoretically it sounds fascinating, but in practice, it has the same influence on me as fairytales. I respect every adventist, and i hope you ll still want to be my brothers and sisters.

I think it is time to start living from the heart. No more dogmas and complicated theories, just feel, listen to your conciounce and living. That is already hard enough. I may be wrong, but it doesn t matter. If i end up in hell, that would be a paradise, knowing i could vanish every second. Then my pain would be over.

I love you all and i wish you all the very best in your lifes. I will still be active on this forum if you don t mind...

[phkrause]

well I'm at least glad that you will still be around here. sorry to hear that your having all this trouble deciding. God still loves you even if you think he doesn't.

I'm not any kind of theologin, as far as doctrine is concerned. But for me choosing to be an Adventist had more to do with the fact that the Adventist church as a whole follows the Bible more closely than other christian churches. Of course my main reason is because of what Jesus Christ has done for me. Coming down from his mighty throne and went through all that pain and abuse for each and every one of us. And than died a brutal death for us.

pkrause

[Parade Orange]

I love weed!

Smoke smoke smoke constantly from the time I get home from work till I went to bed.

I used to cry on God's shoulders too about almost every night. I couldnt see how I could give it up.

[Kevin H]

Dear Truthseeker: Jesus said that we will have trouble.

1.) The land of Israel is called "The land of milk and honey" In the ancient world these were geographic terms: Honey can also be translated "Perserves" or dryed foods, indicating an agracultural lifestyle, pleanty of food (as honey was made of food after you ate and was full) class distincitons developed as you had the land owners and their workers, more leasure and excitement, a live very predictable, easy and exciting.

Milk, on the other hand, came from goats, out in the desert. Moving around looking for where they can eat. Planting a garden and not knowing if you will eat from it or plough it under. A life very unpredictable, hard and lonely.

Now in the land of honey it would be easy to forget your need for God, but it was also where the invading armie's would pass through. In the land of milk you were constantly reminded of your need from God and fairly safe from the invading armies.

Some countries were seen as lands of milk, or lands of honey. Egypt was seen as milk, then you come to the nile and either side a land of honey then again going into milk.

Biblical Israel was about 150 miles long and 50 miles wide, but there is no place on earth with as much variety in geography, elevation, plant and animal life as diverse as that small piece of land. #2 on the list is California which does not have nearly as much variety and is 17 times larger.

God says he is the God of both milk and honey, the hard and easy times in our lives. God is as dependable as honey and as unpredictable as milk. There are times where God just crys with us, yet saves our tears with the promise to wipe them all away.

Truthseeker, with Christ you will expirence both milk and honey. Please don't be looking only for honey and focus on all the milk life will give you. Jesus has promised both the saved and lost both milk and honey (the text that sunshine and rain fall upon the just and the unjust means sunshine: times of famine, milk; rain: showers of blessing, honey). Since you will be having both any way, go through both with the friendship of the God of milk and honey.

2. If you were to sit down with strongs concordance and look up al the fire texts, you will learn that hell fire is simply the glory of God. When prophets saw God they felt like they were being burned alive. When Moses came back from the encounter he had to veil his face due to the brighness reflecting off of it.

I don't have time to go into detail, but heaven and hell are not two different places, but two different results of seeing God in person. Jesus is our deepest desire. Not just the good people's, but everyones. Those who have built a relationship with Jesus will find it heaven to be with him. Those who have formed a habit of refusing the pleadings of the Holy Spirit continue to refuse. As they see Jesus they long to come to him, but they have formed a character of refusing to yeald to their deepest desier. They want to come but won't.

Jesus is their deepest desire, but they also see that Jesus knows everything about them. They tend to be unforgiving people, thus they cannot comprehend that God can forgive them, and fear that no matter how loving Jesus appears to be, that sooner or later he will want to get them for their sins, so they pull back.

But Jesus is still their deepest desire, and they also see loved ones around the throne who they long to be with, but they also know how they have abused and used others, and how something in them would still revert to the same behavior, and they know that the one on the throne sees the deepest recesses of their hearts and they do not believe he has the power change them.

So they stay in a delema, Jesus being the all consuming deepest desire offering a grace that they can't resist, yet they continue to fight it and want to focus on their sulkings and fears. This becomes so intence that they quite litterally disintergrate.

This is hell. It is not you facing the judgment and God saying "ok you can come into heaven" and you wipe the sweat from your brow as you enter heaven and the next person hears that they have to go to hell and are dragged off kicking and screaming saying "Please don't send me to hell, let me into heaven!" but it's too late.

Instead it is God welcoming us all into heaven, but there are those who find his welcoming pressence a consuming fire. (The "God does not kill people" see part of the truth, about how hell fire is not some sepperate fire, and God's welcoming. But it misses the rest of the truth about how God hates how sin harms us and others and how God's pressence is what kills them.) God treats us all the same, but we make choices over whether it becomes heaven and eternal life or hell and eternal death to see Jesus in person in unveild glory.

Truthseeker, even if you refuse him, he still loves you and will try to welcome you into heaven. Saved or lost, Jesus will treat you the same. Our issue is how to develop the friendship so that you will find it heaven to be with him. However I think that you and Jesus are actually on good ground spiritually, I believe and will discuss further, that you seem to just be deaing more with the pain of depression.

Truthseeker, first, Satan likes to tell us that God's justice destroys mercy and likes to tell us that we are sinners. May I recommend the book to you "Steps to Christ" It is a powerful book, and one passage says that when Satan tells us that we are sinners, to answer with "Jesus died to save sinners."

Second, here you have discussed how you have been dealing with depression, possibly even clinical depression. When we are depressed we tend to give ourselves negative messages, which decreases the amount of feel good neural transmitters, and thus makes us feel even worst and we can get into a downward spiral.

Depression is a treatable disease. It sounds like you are allowing your disease to dictate your spirituality. Jesus loves you even when you are discouraged. With what I said about the tendency to give ourselves negative messages when we are depressed and the cycle we can get in, I believe that God has special angels that keep Satan and his demons farther away from you as Jesus understands the demons that results from what's happening with your neurotransmitters. Jesus is still with you.

Growth takes a while. If you fell and broke your leg you need to deal with x-rays, possible surgery, or something as easy as a cast put on. you'd need some weeks in the cast, then you will be weak when your leg comes out of your cast and you may need physical therapy to regain streanth. It takes time.

So with you, you need to get the treatment. It will take time. You will have victories and defeats. Psalm 1:3 can be translates "in what ever he does, he prospers" and scholars point out that is probably a more accurate translation. It does not say that our tasks will prosper, they may fail miserably, but just because the task you try fails does not mean that you need to fail. You can know that the failure is part of the land of milk and that you are with the God of milk as well as the honey and you can still suceed.

Please get the biological problem of your neurotransmitters corrected. I recommended a few books to help: David Burns "Feeling Good" William Glasser's "Choice Theory" Eli Siegel's "Children's guide to parents and other matters" and maybe "Self and world" and Ellen White's "Steps to Christ" Please read these books.

Contact the William Glasser Institute and learn if there are any certified Choice Theory/Reality Therapy counselors near where you live. If not then look for a cognative theory counselor. Please give these a try before you give up. I don't have Dr. Glasser's web address handy this moment (I believe that it may be www.williamglasser.com)but go to your search engine and type in "William Glasser Institute" and David Burns has the website www.feelingGood.com and if in your webbrower you were to put in "Eli Siegel" and/or "Aesthetic Realism" you would get both the website and the website calling it a cult. While the one calling it a cult may have some use to it, they are still making a mountain out of a mole hill, but save looking at what they have to say until you feel better (if at all) but you will find good information online at the Aesthetic Realsim website. Visiting these three websites are things you can do for yourself right at this moment, today, to give you some ideas to think about, and thinking about what these three websites have to say will automatically improve where you are now, and it will give the Holy Spirit something to work with.

Then look for either a choice theory counselor or cognative theory counselsor and work out an appointment, and try your best to get a hold of those books and read them.

God bless you as you both deal with your spiritual hunger, learn how to care for the world that God has made, learn about better ways of meeting your needs (survival, love and belonging, power, freedom, and fun) learn about and choose against contempt (a disposition to think we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world). Both Glasser and Siegel discuss how there are two types of pleasure that we go after, Glasser calls them "Happiness vs. Pleasure" Siegel calls them "1-A Pleasure" and "2-A Pleasure" but their discriptions are very similar. You will learn about how you are dealing with the two types of pleasure and how to go to happiness/1-A Pleasure. God bless you.

[Parade Orange]

Keven H

I like what you say!

Thanku for sharing that with Truthseeker!

we needed someone with the right words to step up.

God bless u!

[Guest truthseeker007]

Thanks Kevin for taking so much time to help me. I wish i knew what God s thoughts were. It would make things a lot easier. Unfortunately i don t live in the states but i ve decided to exercise more in order to do something about my depression.

i am looking forward to the quick return of Jesus even though i am not perfect i trust in the grace of Jesus that covers my mistakes. I give him my heart, that s all i can do..

[Woody]

007 .... On the national news tonight they were talking about a new treatment for depression. It is called 'deep brain stimulation'. They are doing it out in Ohio. One woman interviewed was very excited about it. They go into the brain and stimulate it with electrical impulses. And the impulses are maintained by an electrical stimulator in your chest that sends the impulses to the brain. Anacdotal evidence is good so far. But it is in the expermental stages. It is kinda like the TENS units that are out there for pain ... but this is for depression.

[Kevin H]

Thanks Kevin for taking so much time to help me. I wish i knew what God s thoughts were. It would make things a lot easier. Unfortunately i don t live in the states but i ve decided to exercise more in order to do something about my depression.

i am looking forward to the quick return of Jesus even though i am not perfect i trust in the grace of Jesus that covers my mistakes. I give him my heart, that s all i can do..

Good to hear from you again, but I am still worried.

There is the issue that some people suffer from called diabities. This is when a section of the pancreas does not produce insulin or not enough insulin for what the body needs.

Some people decided that they will treat their diabities with prayer and most of them died. Others decided to treat it with being very careful with their diet and prayer, while they tend to fair a little better, they also tend to die.

God has answered the prayers by leading people to study and learn about insulin, blood suger monitors etc. as well as diet and exercise.

Depression is similar to diabities, only instead of insulin in the pancreas, it is the neuro transmitters in the nerves.

Yes, the phyiscal exercise will definetely help, but it's help is similar to using exercise to treat diabities.

No you do not live in the states, but you are not stuck out in some remote third world country. There is something availble. Choice Theory/Reality Therapy counsers are all around the world, and if non are near you there are many more Cognative Therapy counselors. These will be effective and may even be effective enough to not need medication. But even if you end up needing medication they will help your thinking cooperate enough to need less medication than if someone was just to depend on medication. Too many people on medication are in a tug-of-war with medications. The medications work to try to help them to feel better, but they have things going on in their life, or in their thinking that encourages the depression.

I hope that you atleased visited the websites and looked around and did some reading. But Depression kills just as Diabities kills. But both are treatable, and depression might (at least in some people, maybe you) be curable, but it is atleast manageable. Please don't let it get out of hand. Please treat it as seriously as you would if you were to find yourself a diabetic. God is answering your prayers by more people studying, trial and error leading to better methods, from traditional psychotherapy, to learning about the neruotransmitters and medications, better medications and better methods of counseling, as well as the self help books such as the ones I've recommended. And visiting their websites and looking around won't hurt.

[Kevin H]

Yes, Redwood: I had heard about that briefly a couple of years ago, sounds promising and I'm excited about it thank you for reminding me. Let's pray for those who are working on and researching this project! There have been exciting break throughs and there are more to come.

Now I do fear that this divice, like the medications, might end up becomeing a first line of treatment, and I've been convinced by Glasser, and some of the medication minimalists, enough to believe that the neuro transmitter problem could be a biological responce of the body as opposed to a biological foundation of the situation, and that first we should try to improve the thinking, to improve having our basic needs (Survival, Love and Belonging, Power, Freedom, and Fun - including the fun of learning new things) at our level or at an acceptable level.

While Glasser theorizes that everyone has the same 5 basic needs, that it's like a bell curve and we don't all go after any specific need with the same intensity as someone else would, or as we would to another need.

Depression needs treatment. There is something biological going on in the body, but it is treatable. I believe that the first level of care should be looking at some of the issues found in Choice Theory/Reality Therapy, Cognative Theory, Aesthetic Realism (and maybe even Lois Egers' Common Sense Psychology)and maybe even some financial education, to try to naturally correct the over and under production of neuro-transmitters.

Then if this does not work, or need somemore help then to try the medications and the divice that you mentioned.

But either way depression needs treatment, and it is treatable, people do not need to suffer with the pain.

[olger]

Hi TS.

1) In all fairness you have blamed two people here. The SDA church, and the Lord. (171163) Is it possible that your depression has another source?

2) Minerth-Meyer recently compiled data on depression, and concluded that 90% of it has an emotional and/or spiritual root cause.

3) Do you have someone you can talk to heart to heart? People who are loved emotionally cannot generally find their depression.

ger

[ChildofChrist]

i am looking forward to the quick return of Jesus even though i am not perfect i trust in the grace of Jesus that covers my mistakes. I give him my heart, that s all i can do..

We are all looking forward to His soon return. The church is not for saints, the church is for recovering sinners.

We all stumble and fall short but when we pray..."Give us this day, our daily bread", the bread is for that day, for that moment; not for tomorrow or next week.

Draw close to Him and He will draw close to you.

Lord Jehovah, please draw close to Your child and give courage and strength to do what is right in Your sight. Forgive us all for we have disappointed You so much when we have stumbled. Send Your Spirit to each and supply our needs for this moment, this hour. This is asked in the lovely name of Jesus and for His sake. Amen.

Lift up your eyes unto the hills from where our Help comes from.

[Gail]

Thank you, CofC, for your thoughts and your prayers.

Truthseeker, I hope you have a good weekend!

Wishing you blessings!