Does Discipline Work?

[Woody]

The best example of this that I can come up with is when I was in 7th grade .... I applied a discliplinary method of rubbing a 5th graders face in the mud. That seemed to have worked out well ... he didn't come around and bug me any more after that.

What do you think about disclipline?

What methods work for you or have worked?

Is it ever helpful to rebuke someone? What are your experiences of this?

If you have a bad experience with someone .... should you apply discipline or should you just report them to the church and have the church apply the big hand of discipline?

[Liz]

If you have a bad experience with someone .... should you apply discipline or should you just report them to the church and have the church apply the big hand of discipline?

In my experience, when I had a "bad experience" with someone in the church, worthy enough to be reported, nothing was ever done. In fact, I was the one told not to rock the boat; even though this other person was actively driving people away from the church. So my experience with "church" discipline and/or rebuking people is very limited.

Does discipline work?? As a parent, I discipline my children, yes it works; I have excellent children, anyone who knows my kids will tell you the same. The first part of the word discipline is disciple and by definition that means a person who is a pupil or an adherent of the doctrines of another; follower. I have tried very hard in making my children disciples of our lifestyle and faith. Discipline doesn't always have to be a negative attitude.

Before I had a family, I was (and still am) a nurse. When I was fresh out of school and extremely green, whenever I did something wrong, one of the "seasoned" nurses would point it out to me, so that I could correct my mistakes and hopefully never make them again. They disciplined me. As I got "seasoned" I returned the favor with the other newbies, and disciplined them.

I am not sure what you are asking in this post, Does Discipline Work? If done in the right spirit, yes, it does.

[John317]

I have never had a bad experience with anyone in the church, and certainly never to the point where I thought that some kind of discipline was called for. So, as far as that goes, I really can't speak from personal experience.

I know that in all the years that I was living as a gay person and was not even trying to hide my life-style, no one in the church came to me and asked me about it. I still do not really know why. When I look back on that, it seems very strange to me, and I would hope that is no longer likely to happen (although I am sure it still happens all the time). It is possible that people did not want to make it appear that they were butting into someone else's business or maybe they were embarrassed by the whole subject.

On the other hand, I know for a fact that there are pastors in the church who don't think that it is necessarily a sin for a man to live with another man that way.

In any case, one problem I do see with discipline in the church, though, is that even if a member is disfellowshipped, say, they can move out of the state or to another conference and get re-baptized fairly easily.

[Woody]

Quote:

In any case, one problem I do see with discipline in the church, though, is that even if a member is disfellowshipped, say, they can move out of the state or to another conference and get re-baptized fairly easily.

People can change. I am glad that a person can repent and be accepted in another conference. I don't personally think the "re-baptism" is needed ... but some do. So, that is fine. But I am glad to hear that sinners are being accepted back into the fold.

Praise God. Love Won Another .... Don't forget sin is sin and we are ALL sinners.

[John317]

Quote:

In any case, one problem I do see with discipline in the church, though, is that even if a member is disfellowshipped, say, they can move out of the state or to another conference and get re-baptized fairly easily.

People can change. I am glad that a person can repent and be accepted in another conference. I don't personally think the "re-baptism" is needed ... but some do. So, that is fine. But I am glad to hear that sinners are being accepted back into the fold.

Praise God. Love Won Another .... Don't forget sin is sin and we are ALL sinners.

Yes, people can and do change, I agree. But the problem is that people can be disfellowshipped for any number of legitimate reasons but then can be accepted into membership in another state or conference without any repentance or change whatsoever. The church in that new state or conference may not even be aware of what happened in the other state.

[Woody]

Quote:

The church in that new state or conference may not even be aware of what happened in the other state.

Perhaps God , though the leading of the church is giving that person another opportunity. So, why dig up the past. Unless there is a civil restriction .... such as one that would not allow the person contact with children etc .... I don't see any harm in God giving that person a new opportunity through the guidance of our church.

The Golden Rule would be one that we could use here.

[olger]

Yes it does. Next question, please.

[Woody]

Yes it does. Next question, please.

Could you possibly expound on this. A forum is a place where we discuss ideas and opinions. What is yours?

[John317]

I agree with you.

I was simply thinking about the purpose of disfellowshipping and of how ineffective it can be. It is supposed to be for the purpose, mainly, of bringing about a member's consciousness of wrong-doing and then ultimately, hopefully, his repentance and renewal of fellowship.

I'll give you an example. Let's say that a member is living in an openly sinful situation and has been told by the local church that he/she must make a change or face church discipline. This individual chooses to continue doing what he or she was doing before and makes no change whatsoever. So the church votes to disfellowship.

A short time later this individual has been accepted into full fellowship in the church in another state even though there has been no repentance and no change.

[LynnDel]

Part of my problem in reading through these posts is that discipline seems to be defined as punishment. When a parent says, "I disciplined my child," they usually mean, "I spanked my child," or some other form of adverse behaviorism.

Punishment is a very small segment of the entire concept of discipline. Those who rely primarily on punishment to maintain discipline in a home, a school, or a church, are failing to understand and use the more useful aspects of discipline.

As far as disfellowshipping as a form of church discipline, I have understood disfellowshipping to be more a means of maintaining purity and standards within a group of believers than a redemptive or punitive form of punishment on the offender.

[Jeannieb43]

I've never been in a church where discipline has been imposed on any member. (I presume this thread refers to disfellowshipping someone.) In fact, I don't think I'd want to be a member of a committee making such a decision. Unless, of course, the sin was so egregious there'd be no question but what the person needed to be separated from the church - for everybody's benefit.

But when we start to prioritize the heinousness of various sins, these days, I'd say some of the "private" sins of covetousness, envy, lying, etc., are worse than some of the more blatant actions such as getting a divorce. And I wouldn't want to "cast the first stone."

I'm glad I've never known of this happening.

How can any of us stand in judgment over another person?? Unless they have publicly defamed our church - what right do we have to say we're good enough to be called Adventist, but they aren't??!

[cricket]

In any case, it is not discipline, nor rebuking, nor disfellowshiping that turns another to Christ; rather, love and love alone is what wins him over.

[John317]

I don't disagree with anything you said here. There are many aspects to church discipline.

The Bible view of disfellowshipping is that it is both for keeping the church relatively pure and to help the unrepentant transgressor realize the seriousness of his spiritual situation. It's intended to help bring a person to Christ, not to drive them away.

[John317]

Would you say, then, that there is never, under any circumstances, a time when disfellowshipping would be appropriate and the right action for the church to take?

What do you think about the same question after checking out Joshua 7 and comparing it with 1 Cor. 5 and 2 Cor. 2: 1-11?

[John317]

I've never been in a church where discipline has been imposed on any member. (I presume this thread refers to disfellowshipping someone.) In fact, I don't think I'd want to be a member of a committee making such a decision. Unless, of course, the sin was so egregious there'd be no question but what the person needed to be separated from the church - for everybody's benefit.

But when we start to prioritize the heinousness of various sins, these days, I'd say some of the "private" sins of covetousness, envy, lying, etc., are worse than some of the more blatant actions such as getting a divorce. And I wouldn't want to "cast the first stone."

I'm glad I've never known of this happening.

How can any of us stand in judgment over another person?? Unless they have publicly defamed our church - what right do we have to say we're good enough to be called Adventist, but they aren't??!

You bring up some good points. The thread is about disciplining, and disfellowshipping is only one small aspect of that.

Disfellowshipping is and should be a last resort and reserved for things such as you describe-- openly defaming the church. As far as I know, it comes at the end of a process that Jesus outlined for dealing with conflicts and problems in the church. At least that is the ideal.

[cricket]

Would you say, then, that there is never, under any circumstances, a time when disfellowshipping would be appropriate and the right action for the church to take?

What do you think about the same question after checking out Joshua 7 and comparing it with 1 Cor. 5 and 2 Cor. 2: 1-11?

I've been disfellowshipped. I've studied it pretty thoroughly. My letter to the church said I agreed with it. At the time, I did. Now, having been through everything that it entails, I can say with conviction that disfellowshipping is never appropriate and is certainly not purposeful in winning back souls to Christ. In fact, it has quite the opposite effect.

[Neil D]

Would you say, then, that there is never, under any circumstances, a time when disfellowshipping would be appropriate and the right action for the church to take?

What do you think about the same question after checking out Joshua 7 and comparing it with 1 Cor. 5 and 2 Cor. 2: 1-11?

Then all Israel stoned him, and after they had stoned the rest, they burned them. 26 Over Achan they heaped up a large pile of rocks, which remains to this day. Then the LORD turned from his fierce anger. Therefore that place has been called the Valley of Achor ever since.

I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

6The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient for him. 7Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him.

These passages are the crux of most of our arguements for expulsion from the

Adventist church.

With due respect, I think that Achan should have been sent away back to Egypt....with his riches. He might have been reformed. Having Isreal stone him, imho, was a bit harsh.

With the second passage, Paul is encouraging members to disfellowship/.expel memmbers for excessive abherant behaviors that are "not even the pagans do"... and we are to judge those INSIDE the church, apparently....but those outside, we leave that up to God.... Is this not different than what we do today?

Of course, the last quoted paragraph, not only encourages us to forgive a recent displaced member, but to LOVE HIM BACK INTO THE CHURCH.....usually, don't we just ignore him......forever?

[John317]

Take a look at Joshua 7: 10-15. It was God Himself who instructed Joshua on what to do about the rebellion and disobedience. Joshua would have been disobeying God's command if he had done as you suggested and sent Achan back to Egypt. Achan's disobedience caused the children of Israel to be defeated by Ai. God held the whole camp of Israel responsible for condoning the sin of Achan. In the same way God holds the church responsible for sins it condones.

Check out what Ellen White has written about this incident in Patriarchs and Prophets, pp. 495-498, a portion of which is given below:

Achan's sin brought disaster upon the whole nation. For one man's sin the displeasure of God will rest upon His church till the transgression is searched out and put away. The influence most to be feared by the church is not that of open opposers, infidels, and blasphemers, but of inconsistent professors of Christ. These are the ones that keep back the blessing of the God of Israel and bring weakness upon His people.

When the church is in difficulty, when coldness and spiritual declension exist, giving occasion for the enemies of God to triumph, then, instead of folding their hands and lamenting their unhappy state, let its members inquire if there is not an Achan in the camp. With humiliation and searching of heart, let each seek to discover the hidden sins that shut out God's presence.

[Neil D]

Once a man is dead, he can not learn. That is a cold hard fact.

Would it have been so bad for this man to learn that riches acquired thru secretive means and now exposed and rejected and sent away from the nation paid a heavy price, once he is alone and without friends?

Would sending this man away from the nation have resulted in the same benefits for the nation of Isreal as stoning the man?

If you are going to judge a man, do so with righteous judgement.

And yes, God will have to answer about this one for me...

[John317]

Quote:

Would you say, then, that there is never, under any circumstances, a time when disfellowshipping would be appropriate and the right action for the church to take?

What do you think about the same question after checking out Joshua 7 and comparing it with 1 Cor. 5 and 2 Cor. 2: 1-11?

It would have been different if Achan had repented freely, but he tried to hide his sin and only confessed when it was forced out of him by his sin being exposed. That was not true sorrow for sin. He was only sorry it was found out.

Why didn't Joshua do what you suggest and send Achan back? Would that have been doing the right thing according to Joshua 7: 15? What was God's direction? Why did God give those directions?

Quote:

With the second passage, Paul is encouraging members to disfellowship/.expel memmbers for excessive abherant behaviors that are "not even the pagans do"

Was this simply Paul's personal opinion? Or by studying 1 Cor. 5, can the modern church find principles to follow in church discipline? And if so, what are those principles that we find in this chapter?

Doesn't this chapter indicate that there are circumstances in which disfellowshipping is the right thing for the church to do?

Quote:

... and we are to judge those INSIDE the church, apparently....but those outside, we leave that up to God....

Yes, you are right. The Bible definitely teaches that the church has a right and even a responsibility to "judge those within" the church. It says, "Purge the evil person from your midst" (5:13).

Quote:

Is this not different than what we do today?

Not sure what you mean here. Are you talking about the church's condemning some practices of the general society?

I have not seen the SDA church trying to judge those outside the church in the sense that is meant in 1 Cor. 5.

But in any case, I think that as a church we need to follow what the NT says about church discipline, and by that, I mean all its aspects. As said before, disfellowshipping is only a small part church discipline and a last resort.

Quote:

Of course, the last quoted paragraph, not only encourages us to forgive a recent displaced member, but to LOVE HIM BACK INTO THE CHURCH.....usually, don't we just ignore him......forever?

I agree. Yes, as a church we should be going to these people and showing that we care about them and want them with us. We should be doing this all the time from the time of people's baptisms and even before that. One of the problems, I think, is that we wait too long before showing concern and love for people. Too many in the church feel unloved and unwelcome. We often are just too busy and wrapped up in ourselves to give our time and attention to others.

Yet at the same time we do not do them any favors by acting and talking as if their open sins are inconsequential.

"But I now write to you not to associate with anyone namd a brother, if he is immoral, greedy, an idolator, a slanderer, a drunkard, or a robber, not even to eat with such a person" (v. 11).

Do we believe in this and practice it? Should we? Is this instruction too "strict"?

[John317]

And yes, God will have to answer about this one for me...

As I understand it, that is one of the things you can ask God during the 1000 years following the Second Coming. I believe the Bible portrays God as welcoming sincere and honest questions. He didn't mind when Moses, Job, or Habakkuk asked questions. But He commands obedience even when we don't fully understand all the reasons for the command.

He will probably show you something like a film of the event and explain why He said what He did.

[John317]

....Would sending this man away from the nation have resulted in the same benefits for the nation of Isreal as stoning the man?...

Do you think it's likely that God was trying to teach us (and of course Israel) an important lesson? Would sending that man away to Egypt have carried the same message?

I think we have to consider the fact that Israel was a stubborn, ignorant people who had just emerged from generations of slavery. The record is that they did not learn easily. They were like children. It sometimes took very dramatic lessons for them to get the point, and even then, the lesson often went through one ear and out the other. That was despite seeing all those miracles. Virtually all of them died in the wilderness without ever setting foot in the Promised Land. Is it possible that we are repeating their history?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Would you say, then, that there is never, under any circumstances, a time when disfellowshipping would be appropriate and the right action for the church to take?

What do you think about the same question after checking out Joshua 7 and comparing it with 1 Cor. 5 and 2 Cor. 2: 1-11?

I've been disfellowshipped. I've studied it pretty thoroughly. My letter to the church said I agreed with it. At the time, I did. Now, having been through everything that it entails, I can say with conviction that disfellowshipping is never appropriate and is certainly not purposeful in winning back souls to Christ. In fact, it has quite the opposite effect.

I'm sincerely sorry to learn that you've been disfellowshipped. I hope you are now back in the church and having a good experience.

I can certainly understand how you are personally convinced that disfellowshipping is a very bad thing and can have a damaging affect on people. It is true that it can be done inappropriately and I am sure there have been times when disfellowshipping was abused.

Yet wouldn't you agree that we can't always make our personal experience the test of whether something is necessarily bad or good?

It seems to me that when it comes to deciding what the church should do or believe, we have to consider first and foremost the counsel found in the Bible. Our own personal experiences and judgments can be, and often are, wrong. For instance, how often do we find enjoyable and seemingly good those very things that the Bible says are bad for us?

As far as disfellowshipping is concerned, there is no question that when it is done, it should be only after everything else has been done to bring the church member to repentance and faith in Christ. Too often we wait to show love for people only after problems arise, but we should be showing love for them all along. If this was done more, I'm sure fewer people would have the problems that may result in disfellowship. In fact, I think that needs to be our true focus.

[John317]

... Punishment is a very small segment of the entire concept of discipline. Those who rely primarily on punishment to maintain discipline in a home, a school, or a church, are failing to understand and use the more useful aspects of discipline....

What are the more useful aspects of church discipline? I would like to read your thoughts on them.

[Woody]

Quote:

I've been disfellowshipped. I've studied it pretty thoroughly. My letter to the church said I agreed with it. At the time, I did. Now, having been through everything that it entails, I can say with conviction that disfellowshipping is never appropriate and is certainly not purposeful in winning back souls to Christ. In fact, it has quite the opposite effect.

Cricket ... Thanks for sharing this with us. I'm sorry for your experience. I just pray that the church can learn and not do this to others. Perhaps you being willing to share will result in better methods.

I agree with you and this post. I don't see "discipline" (punishment) as effective in the church. One problem is .... most members are ADULTS. Punishment works well for children sometimes but not adults. Particularly in the church setting.

For adults ... I would recommend modeling. A good example is worth a thousand words. Too much now a days ... we don't practice what we preach. This contributes to many problems.

I would also like to point out that "disfellowship" does not keep the person away from church. SO, how is the church "protected". The only thing it does is to keep them away from church offices and leadership. A better method to accomplish this is through the 'nominating committees'. They are responsible for electing officers. All they have to do is to not nominate them.

As I've stated before .... I've had to tell people that they were disfellowshipped. Not much fun and not effective in my mind. Try demonstrating love and a better way. Force rarely works.

The reason I mentioned the experience in 7th grade was to point out that as a child .... discipline can work to acccomplish certain things. But, I would not try rubbing your face in the mud John317 if I discovered some serious sin in your life. I might try talking to you. And I might just pray that God would talk to you.