Does Discipline Work?

[John317]

... I would not try rubbing your face in the mud John317 if I discovered some serious sin in your life. I might try talking to you. And I might just pray that God would talk to you.

I'm saying that as a church we need to follow the counsels found in the Bible and in the writings of Ellen White when it comes to church discipline in all its aspects. I've never yet said anything that suggests "rubbing" anyone's "face in the mud." I've suggested talking to people and showing love towards them the whole time and not waiting until problems arise.

I have said, among other things,

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As far as disfellowshipping is concerned, there is no question that when it is done, it should be only after everything else has been done to bring the church member to repentance and faith in Christ. Too often we wait to show love for people only after problems arise, but we should be showing love for them all along. If this was done more, I'm sure fewer people would have the problems that may result in disfellowship. In fact, I think that needs to be our true focus.

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as a church we should be going to these people and showing that we care about them and want them with us. We should be doing this all the time from the time of people's baptisms and even before that. One of the problems, I think, is that we wait too long before showing concern and love for people. Too many in the church feel unloved and unwelcome. We often are just too busy and wrapped up in ourselves to give our time and attention to others.

In your opinion, was Paul telling the Corinthians to "rub" people's faces in the mud when he wrote 1 Cor. 5: 11? Do you believe that the church ought still to practice the advice given there? If not, why not?

[John317]

It seems like discipline is the opposite of laxness. Discipline has to do with obedience, self-denial, and self-control. Laxness is related to self-indulgence. So I think a major aspect of discipline is denying my personal desires for the sake of someone else's, in this case, mainly God's and the church's. Would it be accurate to say that the essence of discipline is not asking what I want but what God wants and then following through with what I believe God wants? If so, then it is not about what is best for me but what is best for the church and for the spreading of the gospel.

[cricket]

I'm sincerely sorry to learn that you've been disfellowshipped. I hope you are now back in the church and having a good experience.

[Stan]

We had one young man, who had impregnated 2-3 girls, over the age of consent (14 years in Canada) and he was disfellowedship, but encouraged to continue to come to church.

[Woody]

Sounds like this young man NEEDS to be in church. I would not recommend him to the world. If there is any place where he could receive help ... it would be among God's people. Like I say ... Disfellowship does not prevent one from attending church. It simply prevents them from church office.

[Woody]

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I've never yet said anything that suggests "rubbing" anyone's "face in the mud."

Not sure where the defensiveness came from.

I was making a comparison back to my intital post starting this thread regarding the "mud" comment. So, I was not suggesting that YOU said anything about mud. I did.

[John317]

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I've never yet said anything that suggests "rubbing" anyone's "face in the mud."

Not sure where the defensiveness came from.

I was making a comparison back to my intital post starting this thread regarding the "mud" comment. So, I was not suggesting that YOU said anything about mud. I did.

By way of explaining why I thought you were referring to me:

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REDWOOD, post# 176398 : But, I would not try rubbing your face in the mud John317 if I discovered some serious sin in your life. I might try talking to you. And I might just pray that God would talk to you.

Glad to know I was totally mistaken.

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: neil

With due respect, I think that Achan should have been sent away back to Egypt....with his riches. He might have been reformed. Having Isreal stone him, imho, was a bit harsh.

It would have been different if Achan had repented freely, but he tried to hide his sin and only confessed when it was forced out of him by his sin being exposed. That was not true sorrow for sin. He was only sorry it was found out.

Why didn't Joshua do what you suggest and send Achan back? Would that have been doing the right thing according to Joshua 7: 15? What was God's direction? Why did God give those directions?

[Woody]

Thank you Neil. All of this was well said and sorely needed to be heard.

Yes, we are all sinners. None of us are worthy. If the line needs to be drawn ... let it begin with me. If the church needs to kick out people ... they might as well take me. Sin is Sin. I am just as guility as the next person.

As a last resort ... perhaps we should try LOVE ... like you say.

Thanks Neil.

[John317]

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With due respect, I think that Achan should have been sent away back to Egypt....with his riches. He might have been reformed. Having Isreal stone him, imho, was a bit harsh.

It would have been different if Achan had repented freely, but he tried to hide his sin and only confessed when it was forced out of him by his sin being exposed. That was not true sorrow for sin. He was only sorry it was found out.

Why didn't Joshua do what you suggest and send Achan back? Would that have been doing the right thing according to Joshua 7: 15? What was God's direction? Why did God give those directions?

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Nice parity of the Adventist line.

Haven't you had the experience of someone being defiant for one action and then ever afterwards, learn that his behavior was not the best? Haven't you experienced that? I have...and so have many others that I have talked to. Ok, it was a forced confession. So what? Does that mean that his behaviors were set in stone?

Was God wrong to do what He did and what He told Joshua to do? Can you think of any reason why God would give those directions?

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I am a firm believer that behaviors change over time and that Achan would have changed. Call me the eternal optimist, but it is SOOOOOOOO much BETTER than being the eternal pesimest. After all, a dead person doesn't learn at all when he is dead.

But why not deal seriously with the 7th chapter of Joshua? Did God give the directions found in Joshua 7:15? Do we today have anything to learn from it? Or is it something that is irrelevant to us today?

This is an important chapter in the Bible dealing with the subject of this thread. It contains very important lessons for us to learn, wouldn't you agree? What are some of those lessons you think we can learn from it? Are there other chapters in the Bible regarding church discipline that you believe are as important or perhaps even more important?

[John317]

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With the second passage, Paul is encouraging members to disfellowship/expel memmbers for excessive abherant behaviors that "not even the pagans do"

Was this simply Paul's personal opinion? Or by studying 1 Cor. 5, can the modern church find principles to follow in church discipline? And if so, what are those principles that we find in this chapter?

Doesn't this chapter indicate that there are circumstances in which disfellowshipping is the right thing for the church to do?

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Perhaps you would like to expound on these circumstances where disfellowshiping is the right thing to do for the church...Personally, I can't think of too many....

Could you name one that you can think of?

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Of course, disfellowshiping has a stigma to it....a stigma of various degrees...for some, it may feel like a name taken off heaven's books....for others, it is not having to worry about a church office....for others, it is maintaining the purity of the church [to which I would say that this is a crock of fermenting cow dung]. And for others yet, it is the removal of one's society from a group of people with like beliefs....

The fact that you would say disfellowshipping members from the church is completely unrelated to maintaining church purity says volumes. Look carefully at the whole of 1 Cor. 5 which teaches that immorality defiles the church and must therefore be judged and put away. Also, if you study what Ellen White says about it, you find that she also included purity in the church as an important reason for disfellowshipping members.

[John317]

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... and we are to judge those INSIDE the church, apparently....but those outside, we leave that up to God....

Yes, you are right. The Bible definitely teaches that the church has a right and even a responsibility to "judge those within" the church. It says, "Purge the evil person from your midst" (5:13).

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The problem with that logic is that neither you nor I will be in the church...for each has a certain amount of evil that resides in all of us...and some control it better than others....The best way to purge the evil is to love the person...Or, to use an old chineese proverb, Hold your friends close, your enemies closer....And if you do well, your enemies will become your friends.

According to First Corinthians, the church there had many problems and had a number of members who were quite imperfect, yet the Holy Spirit did not inspire Paul to direct that all of the church members were to be purged. He only directed in 1 Cor. 5 that a single man should be "purged."

Why?

[Neil D]

Was God wrong to do what He did and what He told Joshua to do? Can you think of any reason why God would give those directions?

[John317]

JOHN317-- But in any case, I think that as a church we need to follow what the NT says about church discipline, and by that, I mean all its aspects. As said before, disfellowshipping is only a small part church discipline and a last resort.

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I am glad to hear that it is the "last resort" in your repretar [sp] of discipline.

I have seen where discipline was given when none was needed and enforced by too many who thought they were 'chiefs' in the church.

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JOHN317-- It's not in "my" repertoire at all. I'm merely discussing what the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy teach, not what I personally do or have done or would like to do.

We need to do what we can as a church not to allow those abuses to happen.

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Of course, the last quoted paragraph, not only encourages us to forgive a recent displaced member, but to LOVE HIM BACK INTO THE CHURCH.....usually, don't we just ignore him......forever?

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JOHN317-- I agree. Yes, as a church we should be going to these people and showing that we care about them and want them with us. We should be doing this all the time from the time of people's baptisms and even before that. One of the problems, I think, is that we wait too long before showing concern and love for people. Too many in the church feel unloved and unwelcome. We often are just too busy and wrapped up in ourselves to give our time and attention to others.

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Why?

Why is it that listening to the Spirit that says "Call brother [so&so]" on the phone and chat with him is so hard?

Don't know. You tell me. I'm just giving you my opinion on why I think some people do those things. I'm sure it's not the same with every person. It's very probable that some are just waiting for someone else to call or to show themselves friendly. Probably happens more than we think. So we should be willing to be the first to call or the first to be friendly.