What does it mean ...

[BibleShockers]

What is the deal with "the Three Angels?"

By the way, Ms Osteen is in the news these days:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,399503,00.html

Bill Ross

[John317]

I'm sure you've heard of the Three Angels' Messages. These message are to prepare the inhabitants of the earth for Christ's Second Coming. Some of the themes of those messages have to do with fearing God, giving glory to Him, and worshipping Him. This is very much related to how we treat our bodies. That is exactly what Joel Osteen was talking about: eating in obedience to God's Word and in order to glorify Him. The Three Angels' Messages of Rev. 14: 6-11 are proclaimed to the whole world and result in a people who "keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." The self-understanding of the Seventh-day Adventist church is that it was raised up for the specific purpose of communicating this three-part message about God's love to the whole world.

[Stan]

We are not making it a huge concern... that kind of statement more often than not, is made people who would rather be blind, I am sure you have a lot of folks say that on some of the challenges that you have had over some of the statements you have made, and you would have thought similar thoughts to what I said..

I have not doubted for years, that Jesus pre-existed, and that he was the one who gave the 10 commandments. I do not believe he came here to correct his mistakes.

There is only 1 God, not 3 Gods.

[Stan]

Should Ms Osteen be in the news? Those who are driven for success tend to be, including those God has put in some seats.

There, in my opinion, are 2 kids of people,

1 - Sinners who have been caught..

2 - Sinners who have not been caught.

We all need to support and encourage one another.

[BibleShockers]

No saints?

[John317]

.... Jesus is not to be worshiped or prayed to. He is not God....

Is Jesus God? Here are a few of the Bible answers:

1) Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received ©a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ... (2 Peter 1: 1)

2) ..... looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus... (Titus 2: 13)

3) In Reference to Jesus Christ:

Hebrews 1: 101

And, (A) "YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,

AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;

Cross references:

(A) Ps 102:25

4) For in Him all the (A)fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

Cross references:

Colossians 2:9 : 2 Cor 5:19; Col 1:19

5) Col. 1: 17--- He (A)is [i.e., has existed] before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Cross references:

John 1:1; 8:58

6) John 20: 28-- Thomas answered and said to Him [Jesus], "My Lord and my God!"

7) Matt. 1:23---"(A)BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH (B)CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which translated means, "©GOD WITH US."

Cross references:

Matthew 1:23 : Is 7:14

Matthew 1:23 : Is 9:6, 7

Matthew 1:23 : Is 8:10

8) Isaiah 9: 6-- For a (A)child will be born to us, a (B)son will be given to us;

And the ©government will rest (D)on His shoulders;

And His name will be called (E)Wonderful Counselor, (F)Mighty God,

Eternal (G)Father, Prince of (H)Peace.

Cross references:

Isaiah 9:6 : Is 7:14; 11:1, 2; 53:2; Luke 2:11

Isaiah 9:6 : John 3:16

Isaiah 9:6 : Matt 28:18; 1 Cor 15:25

Isaiah 9:6 : Is 22:22

Isaiah 9:6 : Is 28:29

Isaiah 9:6 : Deut 10:17; Neh 9:32; Is 10:21

Isaiah 9:6 : Is 63:16; 64:8

Isaiah 9:6 : Is 26:3, 12; 54:10; 66:12

[BibleShockers]

>>>Is Jesus God? Here are a few of the Bible answers:

1) Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received ©a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ... (2 Peter 1: 1)

The "righteousness of God" is separate from "our savior, Jesus Christ" as is evidenced by the two occurences of of "our" (hHMWN)

>>>2) ..... looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus... (Titus 2: 13)

"the Great God" is a title, and thus separate from "and our savior, Jesus Christ."

>>>3) In Reference to Jesus Christ:

Hebrews 1: 101

And, (A) "YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,

AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;

Cross references:

(A) Ps 102:25

Yes, this refers to God. Jesus is praying to God. God responds:

Ps 102:27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.

Heb 1:12b ...but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

>>>4) For in Him all the (A)fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

Cross references:

Colossians 2:9 : 2 Cor 5:19; Col 1:19

Surely you don't believe that when Jesus' body died, all of God died with him, do you? No, a better translation is "and all of the knowledge of God resides in him as a corpus."

>>>5) Col. 1: 17--- He (A)is [i.e., has existed] before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Cross references:

John 1:1; 8:58

If you look at the context, this is speaking only of the new regime:

>>>6) John 20: 28-- Thomas answered and said to Him [Jesus], "My Lord and my God!"

Just an exclamation.

>>>7) Matt. 1:23---"(A)BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH (B)CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which translated means, "©GOD WITH US."

Cross references:

Matthew 1:23 : Is 7:14

Matthew 1:23 : Is 9:6, 7

Matthew 1:23 : Is 8:10

Isaiah means "Yehovah is salvation" - so? Everybody gets a divine title as their name. "With" does not mean "physically present" but rather "for."

>>>8) Isaiah 9: 6-- For a (A)child will be born to us, a (B)son will be given to us;

And the ©government will rest (D)on His shoulders;

And His name will be called (E)Wonderful Counselor, (F)Mighty God,

Eternal (G)Father, Prince of (H)Peace.

Cross references:

Isaiah 9:6 : Is 7:14; 11:1, 2; 53:2; Luke 2:11

Isaiah 9:6 : John 3:16

Isaiah 9:6 : Matt 28:18; 1 Cor 15:25

Isaiah 9:6 : Is 22:22

Isaiah 9:6 : Is 28:29

Isaiah 9:6 : Deut 10:17; Neh 9:32; Is 10:21

Isaiah 9:6 : Is 63:16; 64:8

Isaiah 9:6 : Is 26:3, 12; 54:10; 66:12

This is never resorted to in the NT and appears in a small portion of the manuscripts. It is inauthentic.

Bill Ross

[John317]

>>>Teaching kids to pray to Jesus? Where is that foundation?

Indeed. The worshiped Jesus is the antichrist. Jesus is not to be worshiped or prayed to. He is not God.

The Biblical prayer is addressed to "our father, who is in the sky."

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Bill Ross

Here is some of the Bible foundations for prayer to Jesus:

1) Acts 7: 59-- where Stephen prays to Jesus just before he is stoned to death.

2) 2 Cor. 12: 8, 9--where the Apostle Paul prayed to the Lord, and Christ answered.

3) 2 Thess. 2: 16, 17-- where the Apostle prays that our Lord Jesus Christ will comfort the hearts of his readers. (Notice the prayer is to both Jesus and the Father.) Compare 2 Thess. 3: 16, 18.

4) Rev. 22: 20-- where the Apostle John prays to Jesus that He will come soon.

5) 1 Cor. 1: 2-- where the Apostle Paul refers to believers who "call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours." This is a reference to prayer, as shown by Acts 7: 59 and other verses which contain this same phrase.

If Jesus was a created being, then of course it would be blasphemy to pray to Him or worship Him, because that would be worshipping a creature. But as I showed in a previous post on this thread, the Bible contains much evidence that Jesus is not a created being but is the creator along with God the Father. Please see Col. 1: 16 and Heb. 1: 2, 3.

[John317]

>>>Is Jesus God? Here are a few of the Bible answers:

>>>6) John 20: 28-- Thomas answered and said to Him [Jesus], "My Lord and my God!"

Quote:

Just an exclamation.

This is the usual answer that "Jehovah's Witnesses" give. The problem with that answer is threefold: (1) It neglects to address the fact that the Bible specifically calls Thomas' response an "answer to Jesus," instead of calling it an "exclamation" or even merely something that Thomas "said"; (2) a mere exclamation of that kind where God's name is used in that way ("oh my God") would be considered using God's name in vain; and (3) verse 29 shows that Jesus is not viewing Thomas' words as mere exclamation but as acknowledgement of who He actually is: Thomas' risen Lord and God.

[John317]

>>>Is Jesus God? Here are a few of the Bible answers:

>>>8) Isaiah 9: 6-- For a (A)child will be born to us, a (B)son will be given to us;

And the ©government will rest (D)on His shoulders;

And His name will be called (E)Wonderful Counselor, (F)Mighty God,

Eternal (G)Father, Prince of (H)Peace.

Cross references:

Isaiah 9:6 : Is 7:14; 11:1, 2; 53:2; Luke 2:11

Isaiah 9:6 : John 3:16

Isaiah 9:6 : Matt 28:18; 1 Cor 15:25

Isaiah 9:6 : Is 22:22

Isaiah 9:6 : Is 28:29

Isaiah 9:6 : Deut 10:17; Neh 9:32; Is 10:21

Isaiah 9:6 : Is 63:16; 64:8

Isaiah 9:6 : Is 26:3, 12; 54:10; 66:12

Quote:

This is never resorted to in the NT and appears in a small portion of the manuscripts. It is inauthentic.

My friend, Bill, glad you are on the Forum. Welcome!

1) Don't you believe that Isaiah 9: 6 is a reference to Jesus Christ?

2) You say that the above "appears in a small portion of the manuscripts and is inauthentic." Have you checked out the Dead Sea Scroll manuscript of the book of Isaiah? It is over 1000 years older than the previous Hebrew manuscripts of Isaiah. You can get copies of the Isaiah Dead Sea Scroll and look for yourself to see how it reads. I do not know where you got the idea that it is only in a small portion of the manuscripts. It is in all the Hebrew OT manuscripts, including the LXX, or Greek translation of the OT which Paul used. Here is how the oldest Hebrew manuscripts read: "He will be called Wonderful Counselor, MIGHTY GOD..." The same Hebrew words "mighty God" are used in reference to Yahweh in Isaiah 10: 21.

You can purchase the "Dead Sea Scrolls Bible" online if you like, by the way.

I do not know of a single ancient Hebrew or LXX manuscript or translation of these into English that omit the words, "Mighty God." I sincerely would be interested to know which manuscripts lack it.

Also, could you let me know which translations you have which do not have those words or any other words which translate the Hebrew words there?

Please notice that even the "Jehovah's Witnesses" New World Translation has these words at Is. 9: 5. Their reference Bible does not say anything about a lack of manuscript evidence for them, and I find it hard to believe that if they knew the manuscript evidence was weak, they would not at least mention this fact in support of their strongly held view that Jesus is not God but a creature.

[BibleShockers]

Re: The Dead Sea scroll regarding Isaiah 9:6:

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/31_selections.html

The reading you like is only found in one strain of old Greek texts. I think it is very corrupt.

[John317]

>>>Is Jesus God? Here are a few of the Bible answers:

1) Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received ©a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ... (2 Peter 1: 1)

The "righteousness of God" is separate from "our savior, Jesus Christ" as is evidenced by the two occurences of of "our" (hHMWN)

The Greek construction, as every Greek text on Koine grammar will tell you, means that God and Savior are the same person, in this case Jesus Christ. That is why virtually all modern translations read that way. Jesus is our God and Savior. Check out the Greek grammars used in schools that teach Koine Greek. They discuss "Sharps Rule of Grammar," as in the following:

Rule I.

When the copulative kai connects two nouns of the same case, [viz. nouns (either substantive or adjective, or participles) of personal description respecting office, dignity, affinity, or connection, and attributes, properties, or qualities, good or ill,] if the article ho, or any of its cases, precedes the first of the said nouns or participles, and is not repeated before the second noun or participle, the latter always relates to the same person that is expressed or described by the first noun or participle: i.e. it denotes farther description of the first-named person......

Rule II.

A repetition of the article before the second noun, if the copulative be omitted, will have the same effect and power: for, it denotes a farther description of the same person, property, or thing, that is expressed by the first noun.

Check out the entire web site that fully and professionally explains the rule:

http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/resources/sharp.html

[John317]

Re: The Dead Sea scroll regarding Isaiah 9:6:

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/31_selections.html

The reading you like is only found in one strain of old Greek texts. I think it is very corrupt.

1) What "one strain" is that? Can you please give documentation for this? What Greek texts of the book of Isaiah do they not appear in?

2) Are you saying that the words do not appear in the ancient, Masoretic Text?

3) If it were true that those words only appear in " one strain of old Greek texts," would those words also occur in the most ancient Hebrew texts, dated before the time of Christ, and also be included in every translation of Isaiah-- including those published by Jews and Arians? See the translations published by the Jewish Publication Society.

4) It is found in the Hebrew text at the above website:

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/hebrewbible/Isaiah_9.html

5) All of the Hebrew/English Lexicon read the same for those words.

6) Those words occur in all 45 of the translations that I have of the Old Testament, including all of the Dead Sea Scrolls containing that verse. These manuscripts are dated to 125 BC to about 60 AD. That means they are over 1000 years before the oldest previously known Hebrew text. There is no question whatsoever of their authenticity in either the Greek or the Hebrew texts.

7) Those words also occur in all the ancient translations of the Hebrew, such as the Vulgate and Aramaic.

Conclusion: In view of the above evidence and reasons, the idea that the words are corrupt is therefore without valid support.

But I sincerely thank you for the interesting, good discussion. It's a good way to learn and know why we believe what we do.

[John317]

>>>Is Jesus God? Here are a few of the Bible answers:

>>>2) ..... looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus... (Titus 2: 13)

"the Great God" is a title, and thus separate from "and our savior, Jesus Christ.".... Bill Ross

Could you please explain this as it applies according to the rules of Greek grammar?

Even if it were a title, it would not alter the fact that a single subject is being called by two different names, meaning in this case that Jesus Christ is both "great God" and "Savior."

As any Greek text will tell us, as well as text books on Greek grammar-- and demonstrated by virtually all modern translations-- the rules of Greek grammar require that "the great God" and "our Savior" refer to the same subject.

Here, again, is the rule, which obtains the same as it does in 2 Peter 1: 1---

Rule I.

When the copulative kai connects two nouns of the same case, [viz. nouns (either substantive or adjective, or participles) of personal description respecting office, dignity, affinity, or connection, and attributes, properties, or qualities, good or ill,] if the article ho, or any of its cases, precedes the first of the said nouns or participles, and is not repeated before the second noun or participle, the latter always relates to the same person that is expressed or described by the first noun or participle: i.e. it denotes farther description of the first-named person......

Rule II.

A repetition of the article before the second noun, if the copulative be omitted, will have the same effect and power: for, it denotes a farther description of the same person, property, or thing, that is expressed by the first noun.

Check out the entire web site that fully and professionally explains the rule:

http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/resources/sharp.html

If you print this information out, and take it to any competent professor of Koine Greek, he will tell you the same thing that I'm saying here, and he'll explain it so that it can be clearly understood.

See how the following translate it:

A) John Darby-- awaiting the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ

Robert Young's Literal-- waiting for the blessed hope and manifestation of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ

C) New King James Version-- looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

[John317]

>>>Is Jesus God? Here are a few of the Bible answers:

>>>5) Col. 1: 17--- He (A)is [i.e., has existed] before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Cross references:

John 1:1; 8:58

Could you show me by reasoning from the text why you believe it is "speaking only of the new regime"?

Doesn't verse 17 here relate closely to the preceding one, verse 16? What does that one say?

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Clearly the context is speaking of creation and the power of Christ to "uphold all things," as Heb. 1: 3 also says. John 1: 2 and Heb. 1: 2 teach the same thing.

By saying that He created "all things," by definition it is saying that no-thing in the universe was made apart from Him. I don't know any way around it.

I think the reason this is very important to understand-- that it was the creator God who came here and lived as a man among us-- is that we can have absolute confidence that Jesus is showing and telling us what God is like. Why? Because He Himself is God. God did not merely send a proxy. God Himself actually came to be "with us" (Matt. 1: 23; compare Matt. 3: 3-- John the Baptist came preaching, "Prepare the way of the Lord." Also compare Isaiah 6:1-- who did the prophet see "high and lifted up" but the Lord Jesus Christ? Cf. John 12: 41; John 8: 58; Ex. 3: 14.)

Also, we can have absolute confidence that God what it is like to be tempted and to be human. Why? Because the Jesus was tempted and is a member of the human race. I see that as wonderfully good news indeed.

[John317]

>>>Is Jesus God? Here are a few of the Bible answers:

>>>3) In Reference to Jesus Christ:

Hebrews 1: 101

And, (A) "YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,

AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;

Cross references:

(A) Ps 102:25

Yes, this refers to God. Jesus is praying to God. God responds:

Ps 102:27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.

Heb 1:12b ...but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail....

Bill Ross

The author of Hebrew's is showing us that Jesus is superior to the angels. He is quoting the book of Psalms to show who Jesus Christ really is: the creator God. He stated this at the beginning of the book. Then in the next verses of the chapter he quotes the Old Testament to prove it. In verse 6, he says God commanded all the angels to "worship" Jesus Christ. In verse 8, the Father calls the Son "God." Then we come to verse 10, where the book of Psalms is quoted, in which Jesus Christ was referred to as the "Lord" [Adonai] who created the universe. It says very clearly about Jesus Christ that "the heavens are the work of Your hands." This dovetails exactly with Hebrews 1: 2,3; Col. 1: 16, 17; and John 1: 3, among others.

Please show why you believe that Hebrews 1: 10 is Jesus praying to God.

Show how such a view advances or relates to the theme of the first chapter of Hebrews.

[John317]

Re: The Dead Sea scroll regarding Isaiah 9:6:

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/31_selections.html

The reading you like is only found in one strain of old Greek texts. I think it is very corrupt.

OK, I went to your link, and it does not support what you are saying about Isaiah 9:6. The Hebrew scholar who put up that website has the same Hebrew words in his Hebrew text. He shows that the same words are in the ancient Isaiah scrolls that occur in a translated form in all of the Greek texts that I know of. If you look at any of the Greek texts of Isaiah, including those online, you will see that it reads the same as in the Hebrew.

This particular Hebrew scholar does not dispute the words that occur in all of the Hebrew texts, including the Dead Sea Scrolls. What he is saying is that he believes the words mean "Warrior God." That is his opinion, but it is important to realize that virtually no other Hebrew scholars or translations or Hebrew Lexicons agree with him. He even says it "seems" to him that this is its meaning. He is conjecturing. But the point here is simply that the words which you claim are "corrupt" are there in all those ancient texts.

So you need to be specific about which Greek texts you are talking about, and also make available the documentation and evidence you speak of. Where are you getting this information?

You've said you "think it [isaiah 9:6] is corrupt," but you have not demonstrated it or shown evidence that it actually is corrupt, nor have you shown that close students of Isaiah 9:6 agree with that assessment.

If you have such evidence, I am open to considering it.

Great discussion so far, friend. It shows that the word of God is dependable and was copied very accurately over all those centuries.

[BibleShockers]

>>>Here is some of the Bible foundations for prayer to Jesus:

Um, this is not the teaching of the Bible, just proof texts. The teaching is this:

Lu 11:

1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, ***teach us to pray***, as John also taught his disciples.

2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

So how does your Bible/lord teach you to pray? Have you figured out a better way?

>>>1) Acts 7: 59-- where Stephen prays to Jesus just before he is stoned to death.

In the Bible, God is a manlike king who lives in the sky. The sky is a dome over our heads, and God is just beyond that, out of view. Here, the dome parts and Stephen sees God on his throne with Jesus at his right hand - two distinct men. Stephen asks Jesus to lead his breath to God. This is a kind of intercessory role, so I guess that is ok, akin to:

Joh 16:23 And in that day ye shall ***ask me nothing***. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall **ask the Father in my name, he will give it you**.

>>>2) 2 Cor. 12: 8, 9--where the Apostle Paul prayed to the Lord and Christ answered.

His relationship to Christ was unique:

2 Cor 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

>>>3) 2 Thess. 2: 16, 17-- where the Apostle prays that our Lord Jesus Christ will comfort the hearts of his readers. (Notice the prayer is to both Jesus and the Father.) Compare 2 Thess. 3: 16, 18.

That is a blessing/benediction, not a prayer.

>>>4) Rev. 22: 20-- where the Apostle John prays to Jesus that He will come soon.

Again, John is in direct discourse with Jesus. This is no more prayer than is this:

Luke 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

Note also that for John to get up into God's presence, a hatch was opened in the sky ceiling:

Re 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, ***a door was opened in heaven [a hatch was opened in the sky ceiling]***: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come **up** [God is UP] hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

>>>5) 1 Cor. 1: 2-- where the Apostle Paul refers to believers who "call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours."

The word "call upon" here means to invoke, not pray to. For an example:

Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

>>>This is a reference to prayer, as shown by Acts 7: 59 and other verses which contain this same with phrase.

You can't define a term by how it is used in one other place.

>>>If Jesus was a created being, then of course it would be blasphemy to pray to Him or worship Him, because that would be worshipping a creature.

Obviously Jesus is an intercessor to God, so that does not necessarily hold either. But he said that his followers would ask him nothing, but would ask the father. He taught his followers to pray to the father.

>>>But as I showed in a previous post on this thread, the Bible contains much evidence that Jesus is not a created being but is the creator along with God the Father. Please see Col. 1: 16 and Heb. 1: 2, 3.

Col 1:16 refers only to the new regime, not the creation.

Heb 1:2, 3 refers to the delineation of the ages, not the making of the sky and land.

So the question is, since Jesus gave explicit teaching on how to pray, why do you strain on the gnats of your specious prooftexts and ignore the camel?

Bill Ross

[BibleShockers]

Paul's Bible was not the 11th century Masoretic text, nor even the Dead Sea Scrolls (100 CE). It was the Greek text (ie: LXX). Here is how it reads:

6 For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: {1} for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.

This appears in the Alexandrian version only:

{1) Alex. +Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty One, Potentate, Prince of Peace, Father of the age to come; Compare Heb 2:2}

The link I submitted earlier shows that the DSS did not conceive of these as identity but as names. For example, Isaiah himself is named the same as Jesus - that doesn't make him Jesus. And ub the previous chapater, Isaiah names his son "swift is booty, speedy is prey,"

And again, you are seeking a prooftext, but ignoring the EXPLICIT TEACHING of the Bible:

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Bill Ross

[BibleShockers]

>>>Rule I.

When the copulative kai connects two nouns of the same case, [viz. nouns (either substantive or adjective, or participles) of personal description respecting office, dignity, affinity, or connection, and attributes, properties...

My point is that it is not joining two nouns but rather a noun and a phrase:

"the great God"

and

"our savior, Jesus Christ"

Note that this was a familiar title for God:

De 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

Ezr 5:8 Be it known unto the king, that we went into the province of Judea, to the house of the great God, which is builded with great stones, and timber is laid in the walls, and this work goeth fast on, and prospereth in their hands.

Ne 8:6 And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped the LORD with their faces to the ground.

Ps 95:3 For the LORD is a great God, and a great King above all gods.

Pr 26:10 The great God that formed all things both rewardeth the fool, and rewardeth transgressors.

Da 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Re 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

Whereas the designation of the Jesus as "the great God and savior" is non-extant (and blasphemous).

If Jesus is **the** great God, then who's son is he? Who gave him to the lost community? Who raised him from the dead? Who seated him at his right hand? Who puts everything beneath his feet? "What a tangled web we weave when first we venture to deceive!"

Bill Ross

[BibleShockers]

>>>...Conclusion: In view of the above evidence and reasons, the idea that the words are corrupt is therefore without valid support....

The reading of the Dead Sea Scrolls disagrees with that of the Masoretic and the LXX and the Alexandrian LXX. Sounds corrupt to me.

You capitalized MIGHTY GOD. But the DSS has a name, not that designation. That makes much more sense.

But even more important is the fact that even as a title, EL GIBBOR can mean "warrior of God" (GIBBOR is not "great" but "warrior" or "champion").

So, all told, it is a lousy prooftext to overthrow the explicit teaching of the whole Bible.

Bill Ross

[BibleShockers]

>>>Could you show me by reasoning from the text why you believe it is "speaking only of the new regime"?

Sure. We'll have to correct the bias of the KJV translators a bit, but then it will all be clear:

12 ¶ Giving thanks unto the Father [God - do you remember him?], which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us ***into the kingdom of his dear Son***:

14 In whom we have redemption [release] through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the **image of** the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature [the regime]:

16 For by [means of] him [Jesus] were all things created [founded], that are in heaven [the sky], and that are in earth [the land], visible [seen] and invisible [out of view], ***whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers***: all things were created [founded] by [means of, because of] him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the ***head of the body, the church***: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Here is the word translated as "creature":

****

...③ system of established authority that is the result of some founding action, governance system, authority system. Corresponding to 1, κτίσις is also the act by which an authoritative or governmental body is created (ins in CB I/2, 468 no. 305 [i a.d.]: founding of the Gerousia [senate]. Somewhat comparable, of the founding of a city: Scymnus Chius vs. 89 κτίσεις πόλεων). But then, in accordance with 2, it is prob. also the result of the act, the institution or authority itself 1 Pt 2:13 (Diod. S. 11, 60, 2 has κτίστης as the title of a high official. Cp. νομοθεσία in both meanings: 1. lawgiving, legislation; 2. the result of an action, i.e. law.) To a Hellene a well-ordered society was primary (s. Aristot., Pol. 1, 1, 1, 1252). It was understood that the function of government was to maintain such a society, and the moral objective described in vs. 14 is in keeping with this goal.—BBrinkman, ‘Creation’ and ‘Creature’ I, Bijdragen (Nijmegen) 18, ’57, 129–39, also 359–74; GLampe, The NT Doctrine of κτίσις, SJT 17, ’64, 449–62.—DELG s.v. κτίζω. M-M. TW. Sv.

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature. "Based on Walter Bauer's Griechisch-deutsches Wr̲terbuch zu den Schriften des Neuen Testaments und der frhüchristlichen [sic] Literatur, sixth edition, ed. Kurt Aland and Barbara Aland, with Viktor Reichmann and on previous English editions by W.F. Arndt, F.W. Gingrich, and F.W. Danker." (3rd ed.) (Page 573). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

***

The word translated "creation" is:

***

2936 ktizw ktizo ktid’-zo

probably akin to 2932 (through the idea of proprietor-ship of the manufacturer); TDNT-3:1000,481; v

AV-create 12, Creator 1, make 1; 14

1) to make habitable, to people, a place, region, island

1a) to found a city, colony, state...

***

>>>Doesn't verse 17 here relate closely to the preceding one, verse 16? What does that one say?

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

"thrones, dominions, principalities and power" are not examples of when God made the sky and land, but rather of the founding of the new regime - the kingdom of God's dear son.

>>>Clearly the context is speaking of creation and the power of Christ to "uphold all things," as Heb. 1: 3

Note that Heb 1:3 shows Jesus to be entirely dependent on God:

"radiation from God's shining"

"an icon of God's person"

"bearing all things by God's powerful word"

"sat down on the right hand of the majestic one up high [God]"

>>also says. John 1: 2

John is speaking of the word of God there, not of Jesus.

>>>and Heb. 1: 2 teach the same thing.

Heb 1:2 says "he delineated the ages." Ie: the end of the law and the prophets.

>>>By saying that He created "all things," by definition it is saying that no-thing in the universe was made apart from Him. I don't know any way around it.

Look at the context. "All things" is contextual. When you are talking about a regime, the "all things" are the thrones, dominions, principalities and powers - and he lists them in case you can't figure it out for yourself!

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit [preside, rule] together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

>>>I think the reason this is very important to understand-- that it was the creator God who came here and lived as a man among us--

Well, that would be signficant. It just isn't Biblical - at least not until after the millennium, when he comes down to the middle east to rule forever.

>>>is that we can have absolute confidence that Jesus is showing and telling us what God is like. Why? Because He Himself is God.

Uh, no. Jesus "exegetes" God:

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [exegeted] him.

He is an icon of God, not God himself. Otherwise he would be the image of himself, which is stooopid.

>>>God did not merely send a proxy. God Himself actually came to be "with us" (Matt. 1: 23;

"With" has the connotation here of "being for us" as here:

Isa 8:10 Take counsel together, and it shall come to nought; speak the word, and it shall not stand: for God is with us.

>>>compare Matt. 3: 3-- John the Baptist came preaching, "Prepare the way of the Lord."

One can draw a comparison with the box of the covenant:

Nu 10:35 And it came to pass, when the ark set forward, that Moses said, Rise up, LORD, and let thine enemies be scattered; and let them that hate thee flee before thee.

The box was not the LORD but the LORD identified with the box that contained his covenant.

But Jesus himself is merely preparing the way for God:

1 Cor 15:

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

>>>Also compare Isaiah 6:1-- who did the prophet see "high and lifted up" but the Lord Jesus Christ? Cf. John 12: 41; John 8: 58; Ex. 3: 14.)

No, Jesus wasn't even born yet, silly. He saw Yehovah.

>>>Also, we can have absolute confidence that God what it is like to be tempted and to be human. Why? Because the Jesus was tempted and is a member of the human race. I see that as wonderfully good news indeed.

But God cannot be tempted!

Bill Ross

[BibleShockers]

>>>The author of Hebrew's is showing us that Jesus is superior to the angels.

He is showing that a son is a higher role than a prophet or deputy, and that Jesus is a son, not just a prophet or a deputy. So he points to the various sons of God - like Solomon, Israel, etc.

>>>He is quoting the book of Psalms to show who Jesus Christ really is: the creator God. He stated this at the beginning of the book. Then in the next verses of the chapter he quotes the Old Testament to prove it.

"Thou art the same" means "you also will last forever."

>>>In verse 6, he says God commanded all the angels to "worship" Jesus Christ.

Actually, he is quoting Deuteronomy where when he brings his son Israel back from captivity he tells his deputies to give him obeisance:

Deut 34:43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; {1} rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people. {1) Ro 15:10}

(Don't try to find this in your Catholic Bible - look in Paul's Bible).

>>>In verse 8, the Father calls the Son "God."

Actually, the verb is missing from the clause. The most common verb omitted is "is" so let's supply it:

"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne IS God for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."

Note the parallelism:

Throne=God

Scepter=Righteousness

In other words, he draws his authority from God and wields his righteousness.

>>>Then we come to verse 10, where the book of Psalms is quoted, in which Jesus Christ was referred to as the "Lord" [Adonai] who created the universe. It says very clearly about Jesus Christ that "the heavens are the work of Your hands." This dovetails exactly with Hebrews 1: 2,3; Col. 1: 16, 17; and John 1: 3, among others.

Please show why you believe that Hebrews 1: 10 is Jesus praying to God.

Note how the Psalm begins by contrasting the brevity of his own life with the enduring days of God:

Ps 102 LXXe

1 ¶ (101:1) <<A Prayer for the Poor; when he is deeply afflicted, and pours out his supplication before the Lord.>> Hear my prayer, O Lord, and let my cry come to thee.

2 (101:2) Turn not away thy face from me: in the day when I am afflicted, incline thine ear to me: in the day when I shall call upon thee, speedily hear me.

3 (101:3) For my days have vanished like smoke, and my bones have been parched like a stick.

4 (101:4) I am blighted like grass, and my heart is dried up; for I have forgotten to eat my bread.

5 (101:5) By reason of the voice of my groaning, my bone has cleaved to my flesh.

6 (101:6) I have become like a pelican of the wilderness;

7 (101:7) I have become like an owl in a ruined house. I have watched, and am become as a sparrow dwelling alone on a roof.

8 (101:8) All the day long mine enemies have reproached me; and they that praised me have sworn against me.

9 (101:9) For I have eaten ashes as it were bread, and mingled my drink with weeping;

10 (101:10) because of thine anger and thy wrath: for thou hast lifted me up, and dashed me down.

11 (101:11) My days have declined like a shadow; and I am withered like grass.

12 ¶ (101:12) But thou, Lord, endurest for ever, and thy memorial to generation and generation.

Look at the answer for the fewness of his days:

23 ¶ (101:23) He answered him in the way of his strength: tell me the fewness of my days.

24 (101:24) Take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are {1} through all generations. {1) Heb 1:11, 18}

25 (101:25) In the {1} beginning thou, O Lord, didst lay the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands. {1) Gr. plural}

26 (101:26) They shall perish, but thou remainest: and they all shall wax old as a garment; and as a vesture shalt thou fold them, and they shall be changed.

27 (101:27) But thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

28 (101:28) The children of thy servants shall dwell securely, and their seed shall {1} prosper for ever. {1) Or, be directed aright}

>>>Show how such a view advances or relates to the theme of the first chapter of Hebrews.

I suppose he wants us to understand the Psalm as prophetic of Jesus, showing that he will not be surrendered to death.

Bill Ross

[BibleShockers]

>>>>This is the usual answer that "Jehovah's Witnesses" give. The problem with that answer is threefold: (1) It neglects to address the fact that the Bible specifically calls Thomas' response an "answer to Jesus," instead of calling it an "exclamation" or even merely something that Thomas "said";

"APEKRIQE" means "responded." There was no question. But even if Thomas was saying that Jesus was his God, Jesus had already told them in verse 17 who their God was:

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and ***to my God, and your God***.

>>>(2) a mere exclamation of that kind where God's name is used in that way ("oh my God") would be considered using God's name in vain;

I'm not saying it was a flip remark. But again, if he meant it as an assertion, then see above - "my God and your God."

>>>and (3) verse 29 shows that Jesus is not viewing Thomas' words as mere exclamation but as acknowledgement of who He actually is: Thomas' risen Lord and God.

Jesus' mission was that men would know his father, the one true God. If Thomas considered him his God then he failed in that case. Jesus did not come to change the object of worship from the father to himself:

Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Bill Ross

[John317]

JOHN3:17-->>>Also compare Isaiah 6:1-- who did the prophet see "high and lifted up" but the Lord Jesus Christ? Cf. John 12: 41; John 8: 58; Ex. 3: 14.)

Quote:

BILL ROSS-- No, Jesus wasn't even born yet, silly. He saw Yehovah.

Do you believe that Jesus existed before He was born as a human?

What do you believe John 8: 58 has reference to?

Do you believe in Ellen White's writings at all?

Are you are Seventh-day Adventist? Have you studied what Seventh-day Adventist believe, and if so, what is your general impression of those beliefs?

Are there some you are in complete agreement with?

Quote:

JOHN3:17-- >>>Also, we can have absolute confidence that God what it is like to be tempted and to be human. Why? Because the Jesus was tempted and is a member of the human race. I see that as wonderfully good news indeed.

Quote:

BILL ROSS-- But God cannot be tempted!

The divine nature of Christ was not tempted, true. But Jesus was also fully human, and as a man Jesus was tempted in all points just as you and I are. Heb. 4: 15.