What does the Bible teach about homosexuality?

[Bravus]

There has been lots of recent discussion of this topic in lots of threads, including ones where it constitutes a threadjack. I thought it made sense to start a new, dedicated thread for serious discussion of this issue from a Biblical perspective.

All arguments should be Biblically based and involve thoughtful study of the Word.

[Bravus]

As a couple of possible starting questions (not making any arguments on them yet):

1. Does the Bible condemn homosexual activity?

2. Does the Bible condemn the state of being homosexually oriented?

3. If the Bible does condemn homosexual activity, can such condemnation be clearly separated from instances that involved (a) rape, ( pederasty or pedophilia and © ritual prostitution or sex as part of pagan worship?

[Bravus]

As another question:

4. Does the Bible condemn lesbian activity at all?

[John317]

Good start.

[olger]

The Bible is of course opposed to homosexuality. Next question please?

[Woody]

The Bible is of course opposed to homosexuality. Next question please?

I'm with you on this one Olger. Not sure why SO much wasted cyber-space has been dedicated to this non-issue.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: olger

The Bible is of course opposed to homosexuality. Next question please?

I'm with you on this one Olger. Not sure why SO much wasted cyber-space has been dedicated to this non-issue.

What some thought was a non-issue is not viewed that way by everyone, and in fact, if one studies the issue a while, one will find that many don't see it as a non-issue at all.

Personally I agree with you about the conclusion, that the Bible opposes the practice of homosexuality; but there are a lot of people who really haven't looked very deeply at what the Bible teaches on it. For them a discussion of this kind might be helpful.

Along with studying what the Bible says about it, it would also be good, I think, to look at how the Bible says we should deal with people who have these issues in their lives.

Your suggestions especially would be good to hear on the topic of how to relate to people who perhaps refuse to acknowledge their sin or who are struggling against what they already know to be sin.

[Woody]

I've never met anyone who refused to acknowledge their sins. That is just hard for me to imagine. Now I have met people who personally believe differently than you and I on the issue. Just because they believe differently does not mean that they 'refuse' to acknowledge their sins.

I sure hope you are not saying that.

[Parade Orange]

There are wonderful resources that help us understand why many christians and christian churches are not opposed to homosexualty.

Maybe someone can name them?

'Is the Homosexual Thy Neighbor?'

is one such source I dont remeber who wrote that.

All sharing what they read in the Holy Word!

[Bravus]

Pretty sad when we're willing to just state our opinion without backing it up with any Scripture at all. Come on - the standard is that any claim must be backed up with relevant Scripture.

[Bravus]

Let me suggest that the Bible is essentially silent on the issue of my Question 2 above - a homosexual orientation. This may be partly because the notion of a person's sexual orientation is itself a much more recent event: in the past people talked about actions rather than states of being.

But also, most of the relevant Biblical texts seem to be about a process of actively choosing homosexual activity, in some sense as a 'thrill' or as a perversion of a presumed heterosexual orientation. So we have texts such as the following from Romans 1:

24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

This seems to suggest that the people being discussed were 'naturally' attracted to the opposite sex, but chose to turn their attention on those of their own sex.

How does this relate to those who are naturally attracted to their own sex?

[there buster]

Quote:

This seems to suggest that the people being discussed were 'naturally' attracted to the opposite sex, but chose to turn their attention on those of their own sex.

No, it does not 'seem to suggest' that. The notion of 'attraction' is imposed upon the text. The phrase translated "natural use" has nothing to do with attraction and every thing to do with function.

The'natural' sexual function of the male genitalia is to mate (in the sense of 'fitting together') with female genitalia, and vice versa. That is the 'use' for which 'nature' designed them.

Quote:

How does this relate to those who are naturally attracted to their own sex?

From the text, to be 'naturally attracted to their own sex,' is an oxymoron, a contradiction in terms.

The only words in the text which speak to 'attraction' would be the words 'burned in their lust,' the Greek "exekauthesan en te orexei." "exekauthesan" or "burning" speaks of passion, and 'orexei' has to do with 'craving, desire.'

So the text refers to those who abandoned the natural "function" (the one for which their bodies were designed) precisely because they had a 'passionate craving' for members of their own sex.

Quote:

most of the relevant Biblical texts seem to be about a process of actively choosing homosexual activity

Where is there evidence in the text of "actively choosing" anything?

God gave them up to their "vile affections." Gr: "pathe atimia." "Pathe" is an emotion, with a primary sense of a 'mishap'--that's not something chosen. And "atimia" is 'disgraceful, dishonorable,' again, not a choice.

It could be argued from these texts that a "homosexual orientation" that is, "burning with lust for members of the same sex" is sinful, except for two things.

1)"Homosexual orientation" is a modern notion, alien to the Bible. But then so is "a presumed heterosexual orientation." Men's bodies were designed to couple sexually with women, and vice versa. That's not an 'orientation,' that's basic design. For anyone to actively desire that for which they were not designed is at least neurotic. I may want to fly by flapping my arms, or may desire to bear a child, but my body was not made for those things.

2) From the text, "Homosexual deisres" are sinful desires. But temptation is not sin. Not when I am tempted to eat another donut, not when I am tempted by the sight of a beautiful woman. All of us have sinful desires, and will have until glorification.

[melvin mccarty]

To "study" the subject should be a fairly short exercise. Are there more than 5 references to look at? mel

[John317]

I've never met anyone who refused to acknowledge their sins. That is just hard for me to imagine. Now I have met people who personally believe differently than you and I on the issue. Just because they believe differently does not mean that they 'refuse' to acknowledge their sins.

I sure hope you are not saying that.

I believe you. It no doubt is hard for you believe.

[John317]

To "study" the subject should be a fairly short exercise. Are there more than 5 references to look at? mel

Maybe a few more, but not too many more than that. I'd say at the most 10 that are directly related.

[John317]

Let me suggest that the Bible is essentially silent on the issue of my Question 2 above - a homosexual orientation. This may be partly because the notion of a person's sexual orientation is itself a much more recent event: in the past people talked about actions rather than states of being.

I agree with you that the Bible is silent on orientation, and I believe the reason is that we can't help our orientation. Very few people deliberately choose which gender they are attracted to, although there is some choice in the matter. It can be a gradual process due to entertaining sinful thoughts and imaginings that influence the direction of the individual's sexual interests.

For me the orientation is similar to the temptation, or rather it is what can allow the temptation to occur. We generally have no conscious control over our sexual orientation. Once it is done, it's done.

I believe that orientation results from multiple factors, including heredity, exposure to hormones during development, and very early childhood experiences.

When I read 1 Cor. 6: 9-11, I get the picture of people who are no longer practicing sin but who today would be called "gay" in the sense of orientation. I don't believe God condemns us for our orientation any more than he condemns people for being tempted.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

I've never met anyone who refused to acknowledge their sins. That is just hard for me to imagine. Now I have met people who personally believe differently than you and I on the issue. Just because they believe differently does not mean that they 'refuse' to acknowledge their sins.

I sure hope you are not saying that.

I believe you. It no doubt is hard for you believe.

Perhaps you could post some examples here of people who say that being gay is a sin but that they refuse to acknowledge they are sinning. This would be instructive rather than just saying it is so. To say something is a sin but that they are not sinning by doing it ... just don't make no sense to me.

[rush4hire]

We might compare homosexuality with other sins.

We see the nation of Israel falling into idolatry just over and over again. It's also dealt with alot in the new testament.

But we never see homosexuality take over the nation.

So what's the difference?

Homosexuality VS. Idolatry

Idolatry seems normal. It seems God should be with us. That's how it was before the fall. Israel was given the Ark, which was like an idol. They where very zealous for the care of it and the sanctuary and the temple. They where very zealous for the temple in the new testament, too.

So idolatry is forbidden, because God has given us His Word and His Spirit to represent Himself. Idolatry denies this. The idol always seems to give you it's approval. Ellen White says it blunts your concept of God, or something like that.

We could get into that in another topic.

But the fact is God can wink at the ignorance of idolatry:

[color:#BF0000]Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Idolatry is accepted everywhere as a legitimate form of worship, but God's people are called to discern it as evil.

So it doesn't seem idolatry can be seen as a self-evident thing.

But I would go so far as to say, homosexuality is an abomination.

Another thing that seems not so self-evident is fornication.

Fornication VS. homosexuality

Alot of warning in the new testament against fornication. Paul says if you go to a prostitute, you are getting married to her:

[color:#BF0000]1 Cor. 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

Fornication is like getting married and then getting a divorce. And Jesus says divorce is adultery, (Matt. 19:7).

So alot of discussion on fornication in the new testament. This is not self-evident that it's wrong. Alot of people are sure that it's right, and seem to seek it out. If any part of them tells them it's wrong, that influence isn't taken too seriously. Fornication is advertised and glorified every where in the world.

I could say more, and I know you guys won't agree, and will continue arguing that we should baptize gays, but am really not that enthusiastic about this kind of topic. I will just let it go for now.

[Woody]

Personally I think we should be equal opportunity baptizers. No matter what the sin ... people should be allowed to come to Christ. He says come as you are. I take him at his word.

I do think it is unfortunate to have all this focus on Homosexuals. It is like some enjoy the publicity. It is just another sin folks. If you are guilty of one ... you are guilty of all. The sooner we realize this ... the better.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

I believe you. It no doubt is hard for you believe.

Perhaps you could post some examples here of people who say that being gay is a sin but that they refuse to acknowledge they are sinning. This would be instructive rather than just saying it is so. To say something is a sin but that they are not sinning by doing it ... just don't make no sense to me.

Here is what I said:

Quote:

Your suggestions especially would be good to hear on the topic of how to relate to people who perhaps refuse to acknowledge their sin or who are struggling against what they already know to be sin.

I am talking here about two different people, not the same person. Some people refuse to acknowledge that something is a sin. Other people are struggling against something they already know is sinful.

Would you like examples of those different kinds of people? Let me know, and I'll give them to you if you need to have a clearer picture in your mind's eye.

[John317]

.....Romans 1: 26-- For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature...

Is there any evidence that can be gathered from this text to make us think sexual relationships between women are not sinful in the eyes of God?

Is it ever God's design that two females be together as a "couple"?

What if at least one of them believes herself to be really a male in a female body? Does this change the situation at all?

I bring this up because when my sister was teaching at an SDA school in Southern California, I became acquainted with one of her female students, who believed she was really a male. I tried to persuade her that God would help her overcome those feelings. I would send her audio tapes and talk to her about my own struggles and how God had helped me. She thanked me for them, but a few years later she had sexual reassignment surgery and is today considered a man. The last I heard this individual was "married." I do not know if this person is a Seventh-day Adventist or even a Christian.

We live in a very complex world. We face possibilities, moral choices and dilemmas that never occurred to anyone even a few decades ago.

[Bravus]

Have to admit, when I asked my question about lesbianism I had forgotten that particular text. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's the only one on that issue, right? But it does seem to fit into the same set of condemnations... I suspect it might have just got less attention in the Bible because the men who wrote the Bible were less aware it was going on!

OK, so for the remainder of the discussion we can probably safely treat the term 'homosexuality' as dealing with both kinds of same-sex relationships.

(And yeah, I'm pretty sure the Bible has nothing specifically to say about gender reassignment, since that wasn't a possibility. Perhaps there are principles that can be deduced, but let's just stick with the G and L of GLBTI for the time being!)

[John317]

(And yeah, I'm pretty sure the Bible has nothing specifically to say about gender reassignment, since that wasn't a possibility. Perhaps there are principles that can be deduced, but let's just stick with the G and L of GLBTI for the time being!)

I agree. The transgender aspect makes everything much more complex.

I think one of the main reasons the Bible says little about women's sexuality is that men were assumed to be the ones who would initiate sexual relationships.

Don't you think that Genesis 2: 18-25, regarding God's plan that humans be together as male and female, is the key to understanding the view of the whole Bible on this subject?

I think I see a direct connection between those verses in Gen. 2 and Romans 1: 18-29.

Gen. 2 clearly portrays God's ideal, the world and mankind before the entrance of sin. After the next chapter, there is also the fact that God is willing to deal with people in situations where God's ideal is not valued. All forms of sin, of course, are a rejection of God's ideal. But does God view some sins differently than others?

[olger]

Genesis 2:18-25 settles the question for us. "What need have we of any further witnesses..?" to quote Caiaphas.

The reason that there are questions regarding this issue is because the homosexual community staunchly contends God created them with same-sex attractions--thus their behavior cannot be considered sinful. It isn't surprising therefore that they would have a few "scientific" studies to support their claim. Those who have already made a place for themselve at the altar of science would naturally bring an extra offering to this idol as well.

I am certain that homosexuality does not result from genetic influences.

First, if it were specifically a genetic trait then all identical twins would have it or not have it. But this is not the case, as there are thousands of identical twins where one is gay and the other is not.

Second, inherited characteristics that are not passed on to the next generation are eliminated from the gene pool. Homosexuals reproduce less frequently than heterosexuals, and thus there should be a steadily decreasing incidence of people with homosexual tendencies. That is not the case.

Third, Scripture refers to epidemics of homosexuality that occurred in specific cultures. If homosexuality were inherited within the human family it would be constant over time and within cultures. There would not be surges and epidemics like Paul referred to. We are seeing the same thing today.

The truth is that homosexuality does not originate from any single source, and most Biblical counselors know this through experience. These desires develop in different people in a variety of ways. It is important to remember that these scenarios do NOT dictate that homosexual desires are inevitable, but that they may provide the opportunity for them to develop in some people.

Pornography

Family Dynamics (dominant mother, weak father)

Molestation

Cultural Influence (over the last 40-years the "gay" lifestyle has spread like wildfire in prosperous licentous cultures)

The Depravity of Man

Thus the claim that "I was born this way" represents a person excusing their sin and pretending that God approves of it. A person may have softer tendencies (interested in arts rather than football) and has therefore been susceptible to homosexual temptation, but that does not justify behavior that is clearly unscriptural & ungodly. A person still has a choice as to what he gives him/herself over to. Every one of us is predisposed toward some sin. James said "But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust" (James 1:14). People who have a bent towards homosexuality must resist those desires of the flesh, repent of their sin, and commit themselves to living in obedience to God's Word just as a person who struggles with any other life-dominating sin. In this regard, I appreciate John's testimony of victory and fidelity to God's word even more. Thank you my brother, and praise be to God who delivers the Godly out of temptation.

brother Gerry

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: olger

The Bible is of course opposed to homosexuality. Next question please?

I'm with you on this one Olger. Not sure why SO much wasted cyber-space has been dedicated to this non-issue.

Indeed - Romans 1 makes it very clear.

Lev 18 makes it clear that God even judges NON-Bible aware nations for this sin.

But the issue of is it sin be tempted by that and never yield - that gets us back to Romans 3 "the depravity of the sinful nature" and Romans 7 etc where the Christian engages in warfare against the sinful nature.

Having a sinful nature is not the sin we are to overcome in this life -- it is yielding to it that is the problem.

in Christ,

Bob