What does the Bible teach about homosexuality?

[rush4hire]

Having a sinful nature is not the sin we are to overcome in this life -- it is yielding to it that is the problem.

Good point. Because Jesus also had a sinful nature, but just didn't ever yield to it:

[color:#BF0000]Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.

Hebrews 2:16 For verily he took not on [him the nature of] angels; but he took on [him] the seed of Abraham.

2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

[Woody]

Quote:

"He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature, that He might know how to succor those that are tempted.

He who does this work must put into it his whole heart; for it is a work that requires all there is of a man. He who does it as a work that is done for wages, will make an utter failure. . . ." Ellen White MM 181

When one turns over their heart to God ... the works just flow naturally. Not much work involved. It is like breathing. Folks ... if ye be 'workin' at it ... It ain't real. For it comes from the heart of God to our heart.

If you are expecting a benefit or wages from it ... you have the wrong motive. Your heart is in the wrong place and you will die.

[Woody]

Quote:

"All true obedience comes from the heart. It was heart work with Christ. And if we consent, He will so identify Himself with our thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to His will, that when obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our own impulses. The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest delight in doing His service. When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with God, sin will become hateful to us." DA 668

Like breathing folks. There will be NO excuse for sin. He has given us all the provisions to keep from sin. If we choose NOT to KNOW him as is our privilege to know Him ... we are willfully choosing sinning.

[BobRyan]

Romans 8 - "IF by the spirit you ARE putting to death the deads of the flesh then are you the children of God".

In Romans 7 "I see the law of sin in my flesh at WAR with the law of my mind".

The lost person is plagued by the sinful nature as seen in Romans 3. When we become born-again a NEW creation is made according to 2Cor 5 and the result is WAR as we see in Romans 7 -- between those two natures.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Good point. Because Jesus also had a sinful nature, but just didn't ever yield to it:

I realize you are agreeing with me there - and it probably breaks protocol for the one being agreed with to post some kind of objection in response-- but...

I suppose there is a thread on this some place -- I am one of those who maintains that Christ had a sinless nature and that anyone with a sinful nature NEEDS a Savior to be cleansed from it.

(I realize that is another thread and I don't mean to derail this one with that point)

However I do agree with your basic argument that Christ overcame sin by resisting as we must - by persevering as we must - by taking the "way of escape" mentioned in 1Cor 10 -- so while I may be being somewhat picky about that one detail -- I do agree with your basic point about Christ.

in Christ,

Bob

[Bravus]

Originally Posted By: olger

The Bible is of course opposed to homosexuality. Next question please?

I'm with you on this one Olger. Not sure why SO much wasted cyber-space has been dedicated to this non-issue.

Well, let's say that you, like the 20 people one of my PhD students interviewed as part of his research, are born both gay and Christian. You are often ostracized and reviled and told that your very being is wrong, or that your choices are iniquitous. And even the most 'tolerant' Christians tell you that it's not a sin to be you, but it's a sin to have any sexual relationship at all - you must be a lifelong celibate. I would think that's a pretty big deal to you, and worth spending a little discussion on...

[John317]

Quote:

"He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature, that He might know how to succor those that are tempted.

He who does this work must put into it his whole heart; for it is a work that requires all there is of a man. He who does it as a work that is done for wages, will make an utter failure. . . ." Ellen White MM 181

When one turns over their heart to God ... the works just flow naturally. Not much work involved. It is like breathing. Folks ... if ye be 'workin' at it ... It ain't real. For it comes from the heart of God to our heart.

If you are expecting a benefit or wages from it ... you have the wrong motive. Your heart is in the wrong place and you will die.

That is where the New Birth comes in. The Holy Spirit gives a person new motives and love for God. Therefore it is not necessary to do right in order to gain benefits. You live for God because it glorifies God and makes Jesus look good, and you do it simply because you have the Spirit or seed of God in you. 1 John 3: 1-10; 5:18.

[John317]

Well, let's say that you, like the 20 people one of my PhD students interviewed as part of his research, are born both gay and Christian. You are often ostracized and reviled and told that your very being is wrong, or that your choices are iniquitous. And even the most 'tolerant' Christians tell you that it's not a sin to be you, but it's a sin to have any sexual relationship at all - you must be a lifelong celibate. I would think that's a pretty big deal to you, and worth spending a little discussion on...

Yes, this is a very big deal indeed for those who find themselves "gay" and experiencing these feelings.

There is a sense in which it is me. I admit that. God knows this. I can't do anything about that, and He knows this too. I am helpless to change.

I have spent years in the very condition you are talking about, and I made up my mind that there was no way I was going to sleep by myself. I had to have someone every night, even if it meant doing what I thought was probably wrong. I didn't see how it could be right by the Bible but at the same time I knew God certainly couldn't have planned for me to have no intimate relations with anyone.

So that is what I did for many years. But then one day I was studying the Bible with a man who pointed out a verse that I had already read hundreds of times: 1 Cor. 6: 9-11. He knew that I was gay, but we didn't talk about it. He just let me know in subtle ways that he was well aware I was gay. We studied the Bible together for over a year and a half several times a week, often spending 3 hours a day each time. So he said, "John, you see these verses here. Read those out-loud to me." I read them. Then a couple of days later, he had me read them out loud to him again. Finally he said, "Do you understand what those verses are saying? Tell me what they say." I told him that the verses say that those who practice homosexuality will not inherit the kingdom of God.

He asked me to read the 11th verse. The verse makes plain that some of his readers had been practicing homosexuals but that they are such no longer.

I believe now that it was during those moments when the Holy Spirit opened my mind up to the possibility of God's changing me. Not so I would no longer be gay-- but so that I could obey Him and at the same time have a fulfilled life. I prayed right then that the Holy Spirit would come into my life and also do the same in me that He had done in Paul's day for those homosexuals of the first century. I simply had faith that He would fulfill His promise.

It was a day to day-- even a moment by moment-- experience. Every day I trust Him to take me through that day. I believe His promises that He can and does heal people of their sins-- not only justifies or forgives them, but sanctifies and washes them.

I didn't worry about consequences. I didn't think, "I've got to have sex with someone."

Instead, "I've got to do God's will. I've got to trust Him. I've got to allow Him total control of me and of my body and mind. It doesn't matter what else happens, but I've got to let Him be Lord of my life. This one thing I must do."

That's where I am today.

[BobRyan]

Romans 8 - "IF by the spirit you ARE putting to death the deads of the flesh then are you the children of God".

In Romans 7 "I see the law of sin in my flesh at WAR with the law of my mind".

The lost person is plagued by the sinful nature as seen in Romans 3. When we become born-again a NEW creation is made according to 2Cor 5 and the result is WAR as we see in Romans 7 -- between those two natures.

[Bravus]

I think you've missed the point. The point of the thread was to find out what the Bible actually teaches about whether homosexuality is sin, so comments already assuming that it is are off the topic of the thread. And the past few posts have been about the question of 'why pay attention to this issue'. The point is that it is an important issue for those who it impacts on, and I do have a concern for those people, for reasons I explained.

[BobRyan]

I responded to John's argument about the character -- even for one who does not engage in the sin. When I point out that this is part of the Romans 3 sinful nature in that case - I am not arguing that it is not sin but is part of the sinful nature (as apparently your response seems to conclude).

I am arguing that sinful tendancies -- even this one - are built into the sinful nature of Romans 3. Having a sinful nature is not the sin -- yielding to it is. I think the OP asks if the act is sin -- and of course Lev 18 says it is -- just as Romans 1 does.

(already pointed out here...

http://adventistforum.com/forum/ubbthrea...ch_a#Post188983

)

But then the conversation turned to the issue of not committing the act - just having the tendency left in the sinful nature.

If all are depraved as we see in Romans 3 -- then it makes no sense to ask about one form of sin in the sinful nature and ask if THAT one is ok to have - as long as you don't commit the sin. They are ALL sinful! But having a sinful nature is not the same thing as sinning.

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

When one turns over their heart to God ... the works just flow naturally. Not much work involved. It is like breathing. .../quote]

Says the prophet: "Who may abide the day of His coming? and who shall stand when He appeareth? for He is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: and He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and He shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness." Malachi 3:2, 3. Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil. While the investigative judgment is going forward in heaven, while the sins of penitent believers are being removed from the sanctuary, there is to be a special work of purification, of putting away of sin, among God's people upon earth. This work is more clearly presented in the messages of Revelation 14.

When this work shall have been accomplished, the followers of Christ will be ready for His appearing. "Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the Lord, as in the days of old, and as in former years." Malachi 3:4. Then the church which our Lord at His coming is to receive to Himself will be a "glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing." Ephesians 5:27. Then she will look "forth as the morning, fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners." Song of Solomon 6:10. GC Chapter 24

[John317]

By adherence to principle in the transactions of ordinary life, the mind becomes accustomed to hold the claims of duty above those of pleasure and inclination. Minds thus disciplined are not wavering between right and wrong, like the reed trembling in the wind; they are loyal to duty because they have trained themselves to habits of fidelity and truth. By faithfulness in that which is least they acquire strength to be faithful in greater matters.

An upright character is of greater worth than the gold of Ophir. Without it none can rise to an honorable eminence. But character is not inherited. It cannot be bought. Moral excellence and fine mental qualities are not the result of accident. The most precious gifts are of no value unless they are improved. The formation of a noble character is the work of a lifetime and must be the result of diligent and persevering effort. God gives opportunities; success depends upon the use made of them. PP 223

Christians should be preparing for what is soon to break upon the world as an overwhelming surprise, and this preparation they should make by diligently studying the Word of God and striving to conform their lives to its precepts.--Prophets and Kings, p. 626 (c. 1914).

None but those who have fortified the mind with the truths of the Bible will stand through the last great conflict.--The Great Controversy, pp. 593, 594 (1911).

Only those who have been diligent students of the Scriptures and who have received the love of the truth will be shielded from the powerful delusion that takes the world captive.--The Great Controversy, p. 625 (1911).

Our people need to understand the oracles of God; they need to have a systematic knowledge of the principles of revealed truth, which will fit them for what is coming upon the earth and prevent them from being carried about by every wind of doctrine.--Testimonies for the Church, vol. 5, p. 273 (1885).

[John317]

But then the conversation turned to the issue of not committing the act - just having the tendency left in the sinful nature.

If all are depraved as we see in Romans 3 -- then it makes no sense to ask about one form of sin in the sinful nature and ask if THAT one is ok to have - as long as you don't commit the sin. They are ALL sinful! But having a sinful nature is not the same thing as sinning.

....

I can appreciate your post here and your concerns, but the issue we're taking up on this thread is whether the practice of homosexuality is a sin. The reason we are doing this is that we live in a world now-- even in the churches-- where, increasingly, it simply cannot be taken for granted that people are convinced it's a sin. Personally I do believe that the practice of it is wrong from the viewpoint of the Bible, but there are still very complex issues involved.

I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not merely talking about not committing the "act of homosexuality." I'm talking about the in-filling of the Holy Spirit in a person's life so they have no desire to do those things. I believe that is what 1 Cor. 6: 9-11 is talking about.

For myself, I cannot imagine living my life with a constant longing to commit sin. That would not be freedom, happiness and spiritual fulfillment. But that doesn't at all describe my life. If my mind was full of the same thoughts and desires as it used to be, and if I was just wishing I could do those things, I might as well go ahead and do them. That is the way I think about that. The thoughts themselves would be sin, as Jesus said. But I don't have those thoughts. Jesus Christ has taken them away.

But my concern on this thread is that most gay people do not believe this is possible. They don't even believe it is a sin. Why? Because even from Christians, they often hear that there is nothing wrong with it. And they hear voices from virtually everywhere in our society that it is perfectly OK.

[BobRyan]

I can appreciate your post here and your concerns, but the issue we're taking up on this thread is whether the practice of homosexuality is a sin.

[John317]

....Nobody ever said that the WAR of Romans 7 was "fun".

I have no doubt that he who covets over time will desire it less and less though he may gain the victory over it every day... he who lies though he can be victorious today will find that the desire for it will be less and less as he PRACTICES obedience.

This is the argument in Heb 5 where we are told to mature and have our senses 'trained by practicing' obedience.

I find that there is a general under-stating of the sinful nature after conversion and in some cases lack of appreciation of the WAR mentioned in Romans 7.

Do you believe there is any significance to the fact that Romans 7 does not mention of the Holy Spirit in Romans 7: 7-25?

Also, is Romans 7 describing God's plan for the Christian life or is Romans 6 and 8? That is, how does God will for us to live?

Romans 7 is describing a man who is carnal and is a slave of sin and who cannot do what is right. He is practicing sin and is helpless to stop. He lives and walks after the flesh. He cannot submit to God's law. In his mind, he knows the law of God (v. 22) is right and even delights in it, but he cannot keep it. The Holy Spirit does not dwell in him and therefore he is not a son of God. He cannot please God.

But Romans 6 and 8 describe those who have the Spirit as being free from sin and practice righteousness. They are slaves of righteousness. He lives after the Spirit. He walks after the Spirit. He submits to the law. He is free to obey the law of God. Christ is in him. He is spiritually minded. He is at peace. The Spirit of God dwells in him. He is a son of God.

I know the struggles of Romans 7 well. I lived that way for over 30 years, until about 3 years ago. The reason is that I didn't totally surrender my entire life to Christ. I always kept something in reserve. I had sins (homosexual sins, etc.) that I refused to give up to Jesus Christ. For most of that time I didn't think that God could give me victory over those sins, and so I really gave up for a very long period and didn't even resist or try to resist. I thought it was useless.

But I didn't have the Holy Spirit leading me or dwelling in me. The Holy Spirit would work on my heart and give me a desire to do right, and it would give me even a love and admiration for God's law, but I knew I couldn't obey it.

I really believe that this is what is going on with the man of Romans 7. I wasn't converted at that time.

I see nothing in Romans 7 that indicates he has been born of the Spirit.

1 John 3: -10 and 1 John 5: 2-4, 18 show that those who are truly born of God do not willfully and intentionally continue practicing sin. (See Amplified Bible.) (None of this should be taken to mean that believes who are born from above never sin or that they don't fall short of God's glorious ideal. 1 John 1 and 2: 1-2 are givens.)

Here is the bottom line:

1 John 1: 6, 7--

6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

I can appreciate your post here and your concerns, but the issue we're taking up on this thread is whether the practice of homosexuality is a sin.

Well I came out here saying that it is --

http://adventistforum.com/forum/ubbthrea...ch_a#Post188983

I have not found any posts yet saying it is not -- or did I miss something?

Here's a review of a book produced by Seventh-day Adventists which explores the question whether it is sinful:

Source: http://www.sdagayperspectives.com/

Review by David Potter, Australia

Are same-sex relationships natural? Do homosexuals and heterosexuals deserve equal treatment in the church? Is sexual preference chosen, or is it biologically determined? Are the Leviticus 18 and 20 edicts timeless moral laws that apply equally to Christians as to Israel? Do Paul’s comments on “unnatural” relations (Romans 1) cover all same-sex relations, or only the perverse practices of the godless Gentiles? These questions and many more are addressed in this book.

Most of the 18 papers in the book were presented at a 2006 conference organised by Seventh-day Adventist Kinship International, an organisation set up in the 1970s to nurture gay and lesbian Adventists. Eight were written by current church academics. Most question aspects of the traditional church position on same-sex relations. The reader faces two challenges: firstly, to properly assess the growing body of literature that suggests homosexuality is a predisposition, not a choice; and secondly, to re-examine what Paul is really saying in Romans 1.

Part one is biographical, presenting the stories of Sherri Babcock, the great-great-granddaughter of one of the founders of Atlantic Union College; Leif Lind, former SDA pastor and missionary; and Paul Grady, son of a church pastor, missionary and administrator. All three are gay. According to Lind, coming out of the closet was “the hardest thing I have ever done.” Lind lost his marriage, his career, and his respect and acceptance in the church – a terrible price. But he had to be honest about who he was. “Who would choose to pit themselves against all odds and make life as difficult as possible if it were really a matter of choice or sexual ‘preference’? Not too many people I know,” writes Lind.

Part two examines biomedical perspectives. Research continues to suggest that homosexuality has a genetic predisposition and is biologically determined, a conclusion that was widely resisted. One of the last impediments was removed in 1973 when the American Psychiatric Association unexpectedly declared that homosexuality was not an illness. As Fulton asks, if homosexuality is neither a choice nor an illness, how is the church going to deal with its anti-gay bias?

Part three presents insights from behavioural science. Change ministries have failed repeatedly. The church that has called itself “the caring church” and a “welcoming church” has not given evidence of these claims in its treatment of gay members and workers, most of whom have been forced to live deeply closeted, lonely lives. To come out risks ostracism and dismissal. To express sympathy is to be treated with hostility.

The church attempted to distance itself from Seventh-day Adventist Kinship International when in 1987 the General Conference filed suit for “breach of trademark.” The church lost. Later, in 1994, the GC administration committee voted that GC personnel were not to speak to gatherings of homosexuals. As Lawson notes, the official church position was becoming more polarising at a time when law courts were recognising the equality of homosexual and heterosexual persons.

Part four examines scriptural and theological perspectives. Jones writes, “Romans 1:24-27 contains the Bible’s only substantive consideration of homosexual conduct.” But it is not a complete discussion. It is a preliminary comment that serves to introduce Paul’s thesis that Jews and Gentiles are equally lost in sin and in need of salvation. Those that read Leviticus 18 and 20 literally, bring a preformed perspective that distorts Paul’s message. Homosexuality is not the central issue in Romans 1. Furthermore, in discussing homosexuality, it is not clear that Paul’s conceptual horizon and ours coincide. Indeed, there has been a serious confusion of categories.

For Guy, “It is Scripture as a whole that is properly the ‘rule of faith and practice.’” Applying this principle leads him to conclude that “Scripture does not condemn all same-sex love.” Gane’s literal interpretation of Leviticus does not let him entertain pro-gay views. Nevertheless, he concludes that the church has some work to do to restore itself as “the trusted friend rather than the enemy of sinners.” Rice notes with approval that in recent years the church has “become more open to the complexity of human sexuality and willing to consider more helpful responses.”

Part five contains four papers on Christian social perspectives, in which the writers press the church towards greater fairness and compassion, towards becoming the “just, open, caring” community it should be. “God puts a tremendous value on human freedom.” We must do no less.

We all have our responses. Perhaps these are well-informed; on the other hand, they could be tainted by prejudice or by misuse of Scripture. Whatever your current view, this book will inform and challenge your understanding.

[BobRyan]

I find Lev 18 to be "instructive" on this point -

Quote:

Lev 18

(Infant Sacrifice)

21 'You shall not give any of your offspring to offer them to Molech, nor shall you profane the name of your God; I am the LORD.

(Gay agenda)

22 'You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.

23 'Also you shall not have relations with any animal to be defiled with it, nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it; it is a perversion.

24 'Do not defile yourselves by any of these things; for by all these the nations which I am casting out before you have become defiled.

25 'For the land has become defiled, therefore I have brought its punishment upon it, so the land has spewed out its inhabitants.

26 'But as for you, you are to keep My statutes and My judgments and shall not do any of these abominations, neither the native, nor the alien who sojourns among you

27 (for the men of the land who have been before you have done all these abominations, and the land has become defiled);

28 so that the land will not spew you out, should you defile it, as it has spewed out the nation which has been before you.

29 'For whoever does any of these abominations, those persons who do so shall be cut off from among their people.

30 'Thus you are to keep My charge, that you do not practice any of the abominable customs which have been practiced before you, so as not to defile yourselves with them; I am the LORD your God.'"

Pagan nations were judged for this abomination - and no argument at all about "well they did not read the Bible that way" or "they did even have access to the Bible" -- because in the Romans 1 explanation of this same point - we find that nature itself was telling them this was wrong.

In John 16 we have this "the Spirit of TRUTH convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" not just the saints.

in Christ,

Bob

[olger]

The fact that "well meaning" people find reason to defend homosexual sin is astonishing, but Biblically predicted. It is impossible to estimate the evil results of removing landmarks that are set by the word of God. Those who are unwilling to obey its requirements work to overthrow its authority.

This is the dark soul of the homosexual agenda.