Woody Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 When is Sanctification completed? It's not completed at the end of our life. It is completed at the second coming. This is when we are changed. Quote: 1 John 3:2 "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. " Quote: "It is God's design to restore that similitude by giving to man victory over every sin and over every temptation. Restoration to the divine image, will be completed at the second advent" 7BC 649 And finally .... from Seventh-Day Adventists Believe p. 138 Quote: "The three phases of sanctification the Bible presents are: (1) an accomplished act in the believer's past; (2) a process in the believer's present experience; (3) and the final result that the believer experiences at Christ's return. As to the believers past, at the moment of justification the believer is also sanctified "in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God" (1 Cor. 6:11). He or she becomes a "saint". At that point the new believer is redeemed and belongs fully to God." And page 145 Quote: ..." but the ultimate, all-comprehensive transformation of our lives into the image of God will take place at the second Advent" Therefore .... I have to disagree that Sanctification is the work of a lifetime. It is the work of well beyond our lifetime. It is the work of when we SEE HIS FACE. Then is when our Sanctification will be complete and we will be fit for heaven where sin can never again come to it's ugly head. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted October 4, 2008 Moderators Posted October 4, 2008 It's quite true, of course, that our sanctification will be completed at the Second Coming and that "the ultimate, all-comprehensive transformation of our lives into the image of God will take place at the second Advent." It also true there will be no change in our characters at the resurrection. God will not make our characters different from the way they are when we go into the grave. Sanctification is the work of a lifetime in the sense that it never ends in this lifetime but only when Christ returns. Would you agree with that? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 It also true there will be no change in our characters at the resurrection. God will not make our characters different from the way they are when we go into the grave. Really? What about that thief that died on the cross? When did he have time to develop a character fit for heaven? Look, it's rather simple....At the resurrection we receive the life of Christ. Just as we came from 1st Adam as sinners, so from the 2nd Adam (Christ) we will be made righteous. "The law of sin and death" will never be part of our experience again. We will have a glorified humanity free from indwelling sin. We will be fully restored in the likeness and image of God. Rob Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 4, 2008 Moderators Posted October 4, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 It also true there will be no change in our characters at the resurrection. God will not make our characters different from the way they are when we go into the grave. Really? What about that thief that died on the cross? When did he have time to develop a character fit for heaven? Look, it's rather simple....At the resurrection we receive the life of Christ. Just as we came from 1st Adam as sinners, so from the 2nd Adam (Christ) we will be made righteous. "The law of sin and death" will never be part of our experience again. We will have a glorified humanity free from indwelling sin. We will be fully restored in the likeness and image of God. Rob Ellen White writes is several places, including Adventist Home, that there will be no change in people's characters between the time of death and the resurrection. The thief you mentioned went into the grave with a totally surrendered mind and heart, and therefore he will come up with the same. God takes into account those who did not live long after their conversion. She also wrote the following: Our personal identity is preserved in the resurrection, though not the same particles of matter or material substance as went into the grave. The wondrous works of God are a mystery to man. The spirit, the character of man, is returned to God, there to be preserved. In the resurrection every man will have his own character. God in His own time will call forth the dead, giving again the breath of life, and bidding the dry bones live. The same form will come forth, but it will be free from disease and every defect. It lives again bearing the same individuality of features, so that friend will recognize friend. There is no law of God in nature which shows that God gives back the same identical particles of matter which composed the body before death. God shall give the righteous dead a body that will please Him. Paul illustrates this subject by the kernel of grain sown in the field. The planted kernel decays, but there comes forth a new kernel. The natural substance in the grain that decays is never raised as before, but God giveth it a body as it hath pleased Him. A much finer material will compose the human body, for it is a new creation, a new birth. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. He [the believer] may die, as Christ died, but the life of the Savior is in him. His life is hid with Christ in God. "I am come that they might have life," Jesus said, "and that they might have it more abundantly." He carries on the great process by which believers are made one with Him in this present life, to be one with Him throughout all eternity. . . . At the last day He will raise them as a part of Himself. . . . Christ became one with us in order that we might become one with Him in divinity. >From Maranatha - Page 301 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert Really? What about that thief that died on the cross? When did he have time to develop a character fit for heaven? Look' date=' it's rather simple....At the resurrection we receive the life of Christ. Just as we came from 1st Adam as sinners, so from the 2nd Adam (Christ) we will be made righteous. "The law of sin and death" will never be part of our experience again. We will have a glorified humanity free from indwelling sin. We will be fully restored in the likeness and image of God. Rob The thief you mentioned went into the grave with a totally surrendered mind and heart, and therefore he will come up with the same. [/quote'] That's an assumption.... Quote: God takes into account those who did not live long after their conversion. Now wait just a minute....You said that man takes his character with him to heaven. God's taking one's short lived life after conversion into consideration doesn't change the fact that he is a babe in Christ and therefore his character is heavily flawed. The reality is that this cannot be. No iniquity will enter heaven. All will be perfectly reflecting God. Our glorified lives will measure with His. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 5, 2008 Moderators Posted October 5, 2008 "If you would be a saint in heaven, you must first be a saint on earth. The traits of character you cherish in life will not be changed by death or by the resurrection. You will come up from the grave with the same disposition you manifested in your home and in society. Jesus does not change the character at his coming. The work of transformation must be done now. Our daily lives are determining our destiny." Adventist Home 16 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted October 5, 2008 Posted October 5, 2008 "If you would be a saint in heaven, you must first be a saint on earth. The traits of character you cherish in life will not be changed by death or by the resurrection. You will come up from the grave with the same disposition you manifested in your home and in society. Jesus does not change the character at his coming. The work of transformation must be done now. Our daily lives are determining our destiny." Adventist Home 16 Then sin will enter heaven. Also, Paul (not Ellen) says, "We will be changed...in a moment...in the twinkling of an eye...." I must take Paul over Ellen. To do otherwise is to become part of a cult. No thanks! PS: Besides, Ellen clearly stated she didn't have all light. She didn't claim infallibility. So I'll give her a break, but since you set her up as the measuring stick of truth I must place you in the category of a cult. Rob Quote
Woody Posted October 5, 2008 Author Posted October 5, 2008 Rob. It depends upon which Ellen White you believe in: Quote: "Our earthly life, however long, honored, or useful it may be, is but childhood, frail, imperfect, and undeveloped. Manhood, with its full, perfect, glorious development, will come, when, freed from the taint of sin, we stand among the redeemed throng. Then we shall enjoy a life which measures with the life of God"ST, June 9, 1881 par. 21 "Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned." SC 62 "So I will be your representative in heaven. The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My perfection. I am the medium through which Heaven's blessings shall come to you. And everyone who confesses Me by sharing My sacrifice for the lost shall be confessed as a sharer in the glory and joy of the redeemed." DA 357 "We are not to be anxious about what Christ and God think of us, but about what God thinks of Christ, our Substitute. Ye are accepted in the Beloved." 2SM 33 Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted October 5, 2008 Moderators Posted October 5, 2008 Do you see a contradiction in those quotes? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators Gerr Posted October 5, 2008 Moderators Posted October 5, 2008 When is Sanctification completed? It's not completed at the end of our life. It is completed at the second coming. This is when we are changed. So after the second coming, sanctification is COMPLETED and there will be no more growth in becoming more like God? Gerry Quote
Robert Posted October 5, 2008 Posted October 5, 2008 "Our earthly life...is but childhood, frail, imperfect, and undeveloped. Manhood, with its full, perfect, glorious development, will come, when, freed from the taint of sin, we stand among the redeemed throng. Then we shall enjoy a life which measures with the life of God"ST, June 9, 1881 par. 21 Totally in line with Paul....Totally! Right now, even though we are maturing (and that's important), we are "imperfect". Only when we are "freed from the taint of sin" [fallen, human nature] will we have "a life with MEASURES with the life of God." Again, no imperfection of any kind will enter heaven. None! No faulty characters...none! Rob Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 5, 2008 Moderators Posted October 5, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 "If you would be a saint in heaven, you must first be a saint on earth. The traits of character you cherish in life will not be changed by death or by the resurrection. You will come up from the grave with the same disposition you manifested in your home and in society. Jesus does not change the character at his coming. The work of transformation must be done now. Our daily lives are determining our destiny." Adventist Home 16 Then sin will enter heaven. Also, Paul (not Ellen) says, "We will be changed...in a moment...in the twinkling of an eye...." I must take Paul over Ellen. To do otherwise is to become part of a cult. No thanks! Let the thought enter your mind that what you see as a contradiction between two people whom Jack Sequeira believes are true prophets of God, is due to your misunderstanding. The Bible also seems to have contradictions, doesn't it? Yet it is not the Bible that's contradicting itself. It is that we have a misunderstanding and misinformation. So we work at trying to understand the texts better. Do the same with Ellen White. If we assume right from the get-go that something contradicts Paul, we aren't likely to try to find a solution but will just jettison what we are convinced is a true contradiction. That could be a big loss. Personally I don't see a contradiction between what Paul says in 1 Cor. 15 and what Ellen White wrote in Adventist Home. Describe what you believe is the contradiction there. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted October 5, 2008 Author Posted October 5, 2008 Good Point Rob. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted October 5, 2008 Author Posted October 5, 2008 The contradictions are in Ellen White and her own words. But this is expected from humans. (Some don't count EGW as human). EGW and all of us grow in our understandings. We study and how ourselves approved unto God. I am glad that she changed her mind. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted October 5, 2008 Moderators Posted October 5, 2008 Originally Posted By: Redwood "Our earthly life...is but childhood, frail, imperfect, and undeveloped. Manhood, with its full, perfect, glorious development, will come, when, freed from the taint of sin, we stand among the redeemed throng. Then we shall enjoy a life which measures with the life of God"ST, June 9, 1881 par. 21 Totally in line with Paul....Totally! Right now, even though we are maturing (and that's important), we are "imperfect". Only when we are "freed from the taint of sin" [fallen, human nature] will we have "a life with MEASURES with the life of God." Again, no imperfection of any kind will enter heaven. None! No faulty characters...none! Rob What do you make of the sentence-- Quote: The traits of character you cherish in life will not be changed by death or by the resurrection. Notice she is talking about sinful traits of character that we CHERISH. That means those you want to keep and cultivate, instead of giving over and surrendering to Christ. They are sins you are not repenting of and confessing. We should be resisting those and overcoming them, not cherishing and cultivating them. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted October 5, 2008 Posted October 5, 2008 So after the second coming, sanctification is COMPLETED and there will be no more growth in becoming more like God? Gerry Not in the realm of sin. No iniquity (i.e., a u-turn agape) will be in heaven. None! That's why God never allowed Lucifer to develop his love of self in heaven. Here's how heaven will be: In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them. [2T 132] Quote
Robert Posted October 5, 2008 Posted October 5, 2008 The traits of character you cherish in life will not be changed by death or by the resurrection. Let's say the character defect is wanting to be the center of attention. Many have this problem...many! The question is, "will they still have this defect after the 1st resurrection?" No! Otherwise, again, imperfection enters into heaven. Look, EGW didn't know it all. Just deal with that. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 5, 2008 Moderators Posted October 5, 2008 The contradictions are in Ellen White and her own words. But this is expected from humans. (Some don't count EGW as human). EGW and all of us grow in our understandings. We study and how ourselves approved unto God. I am glad that she changed her mind. I am asking you to point out the words you believe are contradictory. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted October 5, 2008 Posted October 5, 2008 I am asking you to point out the words you believe are contradictory. Redwood, I'd leave it alone....John will never believe Ellen White is anything short of infallible! Whatever you say he will try to refute. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 5, 2008 Moderators Posted October 5, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 The traits of character you cherish in life will not be changed by death or by the resurrection. Let's say the character defect is wanting to be the center of attention. Many have this problem...many! The question is, "will they still have this defect after the 1st resurrection?" No! Otherwise, again, imperfection enters into heaven. Look, EGW didn't know it all. Just deal with that. And you want me and others to think you or Jack Sequeira do know it all?! Whose quotes does Jack put in all his books and whose quotes fill pages of his books-- yours, Jack's, or the Spirit of prophecy's? Jack calls her a prophet of God. If she was a prophet of God, you don't just jettison what she wrote because you don't like it. And again, did Paul or John or Isaiah or Moses know it all? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 5, 2008 Moderators Posted October 5, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 I am asking you to point out the words you believe are contradictory. Redwood, I'd leave it alone....John will never believe Ellen White is anything short of infallible! Whatever you say he will try to refute. Or is it because you are running short of answers? There is no contradiction in those words, because if there was, I am sure it would be pointed out quickly. What did Ellen White herself say about those who only quote her when she can be used to support a favorite viewpoint? You evidently see nothing wrong with Jack's quoting tons of Ellen White statements, so why not deal seriously with what she wrote on the subject of the resurrection? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted October 5, 2008 Posted October 5, 2008 And you want me and others to think you or Jack Sequeira do know it all?! Quote
Robert Posted October 5, 2008 Posted October 5, 2008 so why not deal seriously with what she wrote on the subject of the resurrection? Because it's a moot point. The Bible disagrees! Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 5, 2008 Moderators Posted October 5, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 so why not deal seriously with what she wrote on the subject of the resurrection? Because it's a moot point. The Bible disagrees! Show how it disagrees. What you have given here is merely a conclusion that it disagrees. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 5, 2008 Moderators Posted October 5, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 And you want me and others to think you or Jack Sequeira do know it all?! Temper...temper! No temper. Just pointing out how foolish it sounds to ask people to believe you and Jack over the Spirit of prophecy, especially considering the church's teaching, which I agree with: 18. The Gift of Prophecy: One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.) Quote: No, but he has more light that EGW.... Speaks for itself. Even Jack knows that's not true. I notice he doesn't quote himself or talk of himself in any way except as an ordinary student of the word. He doesn't consider himself any more of an authority than you are. I am not saying he doesn't know anything or that he is not a good speaker on the Bible. I am just saying it is dangerous and foolish to think of an ordinary person as someone you will listen to above a prophet of God. Even Jack would not want you to believe that way. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
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