DAVID KORESH AND THE END TIMES

[rush4hire]

The Branch Davidians made tapes and videos, right?

So, where is the evidence that these teachings came from David Koresh? Where is video or audio of David Koresh saying such things as:

-- He was the Messiah

-- He would be resurrected

-- Everyone needed to let him sleep with their wives

-- He would be the angel that gives John the little book

-- And other such things that are kinda hard to believe

These all seem like some outlandish claims. I don't see how people can believe such things without any evidence.

From what I understand, the Davidians saw David Koresh as a messiah, but not the Messiah.

Which means an anointed one. They also said Ellen White was a messiah, and the reformers, and other leaders, and the apostles, and the prophets, especially those who where assigned to deliver Israel, like Samson:

[color:#BF0000]Judges 3:9 And when the children of Israel cried unto the LORD, the LORD raised up a deliverer to the children of Israel, who delivered them, [even] Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb's younger brother.

Judges 3:15 But when the children of Israel cried unto the LORD, the LORD raised them up a deliverer, Ehud the son of Gera, a Benjamite, a man lefthanded: and by him the children of Israel sent a present unto Eglon the king of Moab.

Judges 13:5 For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.

So to them, the great men of God, of the ages, where deliverers, or anointed ones, or messiahs. Naturally they saw David Koresh as a deliverer. Perhaps one which was seen in prophecy somewhere, in some verse that can have a duel application. God sometimes foretold the raising up of a deliverer, like Cyrus. Some might say the raising up of Ellen White was seen here:

[color:#BF0000]Rev. 10:10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again [ - Ellen White - ] before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

So if it worked for ancient Israel, why can't it work for us?

I'm not saying we should think like that, but I'm saying it's not that strange of a teaching. I think alot of these things have been blown way out of proportion. That's because people like strange and shocking stories. And people are in denial that our government is taking orders from the Vatican, so they would rather see the Massacre at Waco as a judgment from God, and assure themselves that they got what they deserved if they where such monsters. Instead of the Inquisition, we see Beowulf and Grendel. Not wicked Papists persecuting saints, but heroes vanquishing the trolls and dragons. That's what we'd rather see.

I honestly find the teachings of Branch Davidians or Shepherd's Rod, or New Theology, to be not very interesting. But I wouldn't want to falsely accuse them.

Do you guys get what I'm saying? I don't endorse their teachings, because frankly I don't even know what they teach, for the most part. I tried studying Shepherd's Rod, but it was too boring. I disagree with the constant reaching only to SDAs, and never the world.

And our president has no business telling us that's what will happen to us if join a cult. We are supposed to have a right to join a cult if that's what we want to do. And the government has no right to define what is or is not a cult. If they start doing that, you know they are under the control of the Vatican.

The same Constitution that protects our right to join a cult also protects our right to keep the Sabbath.

That's what makes us different than the Communists, the Muslims, and the Papists.

I seriously believe the Davidians where used as a warm-up exercise to prepare the US for a new Inquisition. Do you not believe there will be another Inquisition? In spite of how Great Controversy says there will be?

-- Jesus was crucified between 2 thieves.

-- The Apostles where compared to 2 other cults.

-- The Papacy burned witches, and real criminals, and true Christians together.

-- If you see the Papacy busting cults, and running the CIA, and managing our justice system for us, which does administer good justice, you can be sure she's warming up to start persecuting true Christians, together with the cults and real criminals. True Christians will be seen as traitors because they won't go along with her Sunday plan, and they won't stop saying the Papacy is the Antichrist.

[Jaycee]

I don't really know much about the beliefs you guys have, but I have seen the video and read all about what happened at Waco.

David Koresh was evil at its highest form.

He shows no characteristics of a Christlike person whatsoever.

[Guest truthseeker007]

Dear Mark i am sorry for you that you had such a tribulant life so far. I kind of know what it s like to experience suffering and losing the ones you love. But let me tell you something other people in here don t explicitly tell you. David Koresh misused the writings of Ellen White to brainwash people in order to gain power. Power in the form of sex, worship and the feeding of selfish pride by making himself more than anyone else. David Koresh is a satanic despot and you should get away from him and his teachings as the east is from the west. Extremism is never good and doctrines ain t worth it to mess up your whole life. Listen to your inner voice that distinguishes wrong from right. Deep in your heart you know that the Davidians don t make you happy. They will never make you happy. You don t even need the SDA church to become happy and walk with Christ. It is better to ask Jesus to help you and live by the most simple truths than being captured in a life of religious doctrines. Please leave the Davidian church and experience the freedom in Christ. I know it is hard for you to change your beliefs because you have been programmed by a cult, but please think about what i tell you.

[BobRyan]

Quote:

Koresh's leadership of the Davidians began with violence. A gun battle in 1987 between Koresh (assisted by 7 heavily armed followers) and a rival leader George Roden Jr. led to his trial for attempted murder. But the jury deadlocked and prosecutors chose not to retry Koresh. Texas prosecutor Denise Wilkerson observed at the time that David Koresh "was building an arsenal" and "preparing for a battle with someone."

According to financial records Koresh spent $199,715.00 on weapons and ammunition in the 17 months immediately proceeding the BATF raid on his compound.

The remnants of a huge arsenal was later found after the fire amidst the ruins of the Davidian compound. This stockpile included grenades, gas masks, more than a million rounds of ammunition and at least 40 submachine guns.

http://www.culteducation.com/waco.html

In the reviews done regarding this break off group from the Branch Davidians -- I can not find much in the way of redeeming value in the gross errors into which they fled.

I remember a report where it was obeserved that both the Davidian denomination and the Branch Davidian congregations that he attended formerly - expelled him from their groups. (Credit where credit is due)

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Quote:

When he was 20, Koresh turned to the Church of Seventh Day Adventists, his mother's church. But he was expelled for being a bad influence on the young people. Sometime during the next couple of years, Koresh went to Hollywood to become a rock star but nothing came of it. Instead, in 1981 he went to Waco, Texas where he joined the Branch Davidians, a religious sect which in 1935 had settled 10 miles outside of Waco. At one time, it had more than 1,400 members.

Koresh had an affair with then-prophetess Lois Roden who was in her late sixties. The two travelled to Israel together. When Lois Roden died, a power struggle began between Koresh and Lois Roden's son George. For a short time, Koresh retreated with his followers to eastern Texas. But in late 1987 he returned to Mount Carmel in camouflage with seven male followers, armed with five .223 caliber semiautomatic assault rifles, two .22 caliber rifles, two 12-gauge shotguns and nearly 400 rounds of ammunition. During the gunfight, Roden was shot in the chest and hands.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/davidkoresh.html

The unsavory nature of this guy's methods and practices seem to be glaringly obvious.

What I am trying to find out is the extent to which the denomination of Branch Davidians had other locations beyond Waco at the time.

in Christ,

Bob

[Mark Anthony]

THANK-YOU ALL FOR RESPONDING AND I RESPECT EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOUR VIEWS. IT'S SO HARD TO ANSWER EVERY LAST ONE OF YOUR QUESTIONS AS I HAVE BEEN AWAY FROM THE MESSAGE BOARD ALL NIGHT AND SO MANY OF YOU HAVE RESPONDED TO THE THREAD I STARTED.

ONE GUY ASKS "ARE WHERE ARE THE VIDEOS , OR THE PROOF OF STATEMENTS.

PLEASE READ OUR MESSAGE BOARD COMPLETELY. THERE ARE TONS OF LINKS TO DAVID KORESH INFORMATION AS WELL AS PERSONAL TEACHINGS AND VIDEOS AND TAPES. SEARCH FOR THEM.

YOU WILL ALSO FIND LINKS TO THE MT. CARMEL HOME SITE AS WELL WHICH HAS NEW POSTINGS EVERYDAY AS WELL.

AFTER A COMPLETE EXAMINATION OF OUR MESSAGE BOARD AND WEBSITE AND AFTER YOU WATCH ALL THE VIDEOS ON OUR MESSAGE BOARD AND EXPLORE ALL THE LINKS , I AM POSITIVE THAT ALL YOUR QUESTIONS WILL BE ANSWERED.

[Guest truthseeker007]

Mark let me ask you a simple question, is Jesus the most high authority in your life? If yes, don t you remember the words of our members? "by their fruits you shall know them". What are the fruits of David Koresh? sexual abuse, unscriptural teachings, murder, violence and destruction. These are devil fruits. No matter how much info and theories you have got about David Koresh we can all assume according to Jesus that Koresh was a satanist!

[Guest truthseeker007]

members = master

[Mark Anthony]

Since you ask , we are Branch Davidian Seventh Day Adventist.

On our website , you will find links to a couple more BDSDA websites in our organization.

[Gail]

Mark, we have a policy here that people are not to come here recruiting for their cause.

If I see anything more along this line, I will ban you.

If you would like to remain here but participate in discussions WITHOUT lifting up David Koresh, you are most welcome to do so.

I don't want to discuss this any further. I hope that you will respect us on this.

[Woody]

Thank you Gail. We don't need recruiters here. But I wish he would come and have a conversation with us instead of just advertising his web site. But then, perhaps he just doesn't know enough about his "religion" to converse.

[Nan]

I too appreciate Gail's post.

If Mark wants to raise a specific part of his beliefs and ask for others' opinion and input, there could be

some benefit for everyone.

[rush4hire]

Power in the form of sex

[rush4hire]

Quote:

Koresh's leadership of the Davidians began with violence. A gun battle in 1987 between Koresh (assisted by 7 heavily armed followers) and a rival leader George Roden Jr. led to his trial for attempted murder. But the jury deadlocked and prosecutors chose not to retry Koresh. Texas prosecutor Denise Wilkerson observed at the time that David Koresh "was building an arsenal" and "preparing for a battle with someone."

According to financial records Koresh spent $199,715.00 on weapons and ammunition in the 17 months immediately proceeding the BATF raid on his compound.

The remnants of a huge arsenal was later found after the fire amidst the ruins of the Davidian compound. This stockpile included grenades, gas masks, more than a million rounds of ammunition and at least 40 submachine guns.

http://www.culteducation.com/waco.html

In the reviews done regarding this break off group from the Branch Davidians -- I can not find much in the way of redeeming value in the gross errors into which they fled.

[Neil D]

PLEASE READ OUR MESSAGE BOARD COMPLETELY. THERE ARE TONS OF LINKS TO DAVID KORESH INFORMATION AS WELL AS PERSONAL TEACHINGS AND VIDEOS AND TAPES. SEARCH FOR THEM.

Mark,

While most of us love to converse with each other and with new people, we absolutely HATE wading thru long posts.

Since you have recieved a slight cold shoulder from everyone, let me do something a bit different....Let's talk from YOUR sources why the need for 2 crucifixitions...'k? And let's have a bit of converstation regarding those theological sources...

Now, you posted a link regarding Moses and his hitting the rock twice...I will copy a paragraph-

SIGNIFICANCE OF ROCK BEING SMITTEN ONCE IN HOREB WAS DESTROYED

"Here Moses sinned. He became wearied with the continual murmurings of the people against him, and at the commandment of the Lord took the rod, and, instead of speaking to the rock, as God commanded him, he smote it with the rod twice {which meant that Christ was to be smitten twice}, after saying, 'Must we {Moses and Aaron} fetch you water out of the rock.' He here spoke unadvisedly with his lips. He did not say, God will now show you another evidence of His power, and bring you water out of this rock. He did not ascribe the power and glory to God for causing water to again flow from the flinty rock, and therefore did not magnify Him before the people."--4 Spiritual Gifts, pg. 39:1 (bold emphasis, braces added).

"By this rash act {smiting the rock twice}, Moses took away the force of the lesson that God purposed to teach. The rock {of Horeb}, being a symbol of Christ, had been once smitten {to give water--Ex. 17:6}, as Christ was to be once offered {Heb. 9:28--crucified--to give the water of everlasting life--John 4:14}. The second time, it was needful only to speak to the rock {Num. 20:8}, as we have only to ask for blessings in the name of Jesus. By the second smiting of the rock, the significance of this beautiful figure of Christ was destroyed {showing that Christ was to be crucified twice}."--Patriarchs and Prophets, pg. 418:1 (bold emphasis, braces added).

When Moses first smote the "rock of Horeb" only one time to give life-saving water to Israel, it was to teach them the "lesson" that Christ, the "spiritual Rock" (1 Cor. 10:4), was to be smitten "once" (literally crucified) to give them the life-saving waters of "everlasting life" (John 4:14). By this forceful "lesson" they were to understand that "our Saviour was not to be sacrificed a second time" (PP411). But when Moses smote the rock again, not only "once," but twice, the "beautiful figure of Christ" was changed and its "significance...destroyed" (PP418). By "this rash act," another forceful "lesson" was taught, which clearly indicated that Christ was to be crucified twice! He was first to be crucified by typical Judah; and then again in the latter days He is to be crucified by antitypical Judah. But who are they? To learn the answer to that question, we must understand more about typical Judah in the days of jesus.

Isn't this [that part which is underlined] just wrong reasoning? If the first striking of the rock symbolized the crucifiction of Christ, why would the mistake of a man, an angry man, FORCE God into crucifying Christ twice?

[Woody]

Good luck Neil. But I supect you will just be referred to a web site.

[Neil D]

Redwood, you sound like you have had some dealings with these people....

Nevertheless, the mike is available to Mark to share what he sees...I would hope that since he uses EGWhite to sustanciate his views that he would also understand that truth has nothing to fear...

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Quote:

According to financial records Koresh spent $199,715.00 on weapons and ammunition in the 17 months immediately proceeding the BATF raid on his compound.

The remnants of a huge arsenal was later found after the fire amidst the ruins of the Davidian compound. This stockpile included grenades, gas masks, more than a million rounds of ammunition and at least 40 submachine guns.

http://www.culteducation.com/waco.html

In the reviews done regarding this break off group from the Branch Davidians -- I can not find much in the way of redeeming value in the gross errors into which they fled.

I can't believe how much confidence people put in these conflicting stories. This report is not factual.

Originally Posted By: culteducation.com

Koresh's leadership of the Davidians began with violence.

Wrong. Koresh's leadership began when he was chosen by the former leader.

Originally Posted By: culteducation.com

A gun battle in 1987 between Koresh (assisted by 7 heavily armed followers) and a rival leader George Roden Jr. led to his trial for attempted murder.

This makes it look like they where having a shoot-out to see who would be the next leader. LOL.

That's not honest journalism.

Roden was angry because his mom, the former leader, chose Koresh instead of him. Roden invited them to his ranch and opened fire on David and friends.

When someone is shooting at you, the only thing you can do to defend yourself and keep them from killing you, is return fire. If you're unarmed and some lunatic starts shooting at you, you're dead. "...he beareth not the sword in vain", (Romans 13:4).

This is the wild-west we're talking about. There are lots of stories where wicked men have broken into some farm home and murdered and raped

...

Lest we stray too far from the point of actual history.

Vernon Howell (aka David Koresh) left the compound and took some followers with him. George Roden was left at the site - and apparently in charge.

David returns years or months later (you tell me) with 7 heavily armed followers -

Shooting breaks out -- (say anyone you wish started it for the sake of discussion).

In the end David is again leading the group and Roden is shot in the chest and the hand.

As much as this may be perfectly reasonable to one of the members of that "group" -- it is not Christian behavior of any kind that I am aware of and quoting the role of the STATE in controlling crime in Rom 13 is not helping to make your case about the violence they were engaged in as all of them were in fact committing crime at that point.

I know of no SDAs, nor NT authors that would condone such a thing! How is it that you would have any interest at all in trying to view this as a "good thing"?? Where is the incentive??

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Since you ask , we are Branch Davidian Seventh Day Adventist.

I was not aware that the Adventist church gave it's name out for use by other denominations.

That is a new one on me.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

This makes it look like they where having a shoot-out to see who would be the next leader. LOL.

That's not honest journalism.

Roden was angry because his mom' date=' the former leader, chose Koresh instead of him. Roden invited them to his ranch and opened fire on David and friends.

When someone is shooting at you, the only thing you can do to defend yourself and keep them from killing you, is return fire. If you're unarmed and some lunatic starts shooting at you, you're dead. "...he beareth not the sword in vain", (Romans 13:4).

This is the wild-west we're talking about. There are lots of stories where wicked men have broken into some farm home and murdered and raped everyone there and stole all their money and goods. That kind of thing only happens to people who are foolish and presumptuous enough to live in the country, in the great plains, without guns.

This is where I grew up. Everybody we knew had several guns in their collection. My step-dad had a .38 special. We shot it at targets and caught some game.

[/quote']

we are not talking about shooting at "game" we are talking about David and 7 heavily armed followers "showing up" at the compound years (or was it months) after leaving the place with George Roden in charge (for whatever reason).

Quote:

When he was 20, Koresh turned to the Church of Seventh Day Adventists, his mother's church. But he was expelled for being a bad influence on the young people. Sometime during the next couple of years, Koresh went to Hollywood to become a rock star but nothing came of it. Instead, in 1981 he went to Waco, Texas where he joined the Branch Davidians, a religious sect which in 1935 had settled 10 miles outside of Waco. At one time, it had more than 1,400 members.

Koresh had an affair with then-prophetess Lois Roden who was in her late sixties. The two travelled to Israel together. When Lois Roden died, a power struggle began between Koresh and Lois Roden's son George. For a short time, Koresh retreated with his followers to eastern Texas.

But in late 1987 he returned to Mount Carmel in camouflage with seven male followers, armed with five .223 caliber semiautomatic assault rifles, two .22 caliber rifles, two 12-gauge shotguns and nearly 400 rounds of ammunition. During the gunfight, Roden was shot in the chest and hands.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/davidkoresh.html

Squirrel hunting and they just so happened to shoot Roden instead?

Ok -- so why does anyone have an incentive to try to spin that stuff as if it were a "good thing"??

Hint - Romans 13 is talking about the state's role in controlling crime -- it can not be used as justification for Koresh and friends to commit crime.

I don't know of any SDA or any other Christian or any NT writer that is going to rewrite that business as "a legitimate church business meeting electing new leadership".

Looks like a cult to me.

But what about the other guys -- I thought the Branch Davidians had something else on their plate besides Vernon Howell and friends. Isn't it bigger than Vernon?

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Since some variation of Rom 13:4 was used in the reply -- let's look at actual scripture.

Quote:

Romans 13

1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.

2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.

3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;

4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.

5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake.

6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing.

7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

The government in Texas at the time -- was the State of Texas and the U.S Federal Government. These are the authorities defining the laws, collecting taxes -- and enforcing law with guns to maintain the peace.

The criminal activity involved in that shootout between Roden and Koresh's gun men -- was not a government function.

So that means that Romans 13 insists that Churches in Texas be subject to the governing authorities - - which means Christians are not to be showing up for church with weapons ready to engage in another shoot out. As if this were some kind of way to conduct a church business meeting.

in Christ,

Bob

[rush4hire]

Lest we stray too far from the point of actual history.

[rush4hire]

Looks like a cult to me.

[Doug]

Anyone get an email from this fella? I don't know how he got my email address, it shouldn't be avaliable to anyone but the admins and mods.

[John317]

Isn't your private email address on your profile?

I'll look into this, cubensis. He has already been told not to send stuff to members.

When did you get something from him?