Sinless before or after Jesus returns?

[Lineman]

Quote:

"... those who are waiting to behold a magical change in their characters without determined effort on their part to overcome sin, will be disappointed. We have no reason to fear while looking to Jesus, no reason to doubt but that He is able to save to the uttermost all that come unto Him; but we may constantly fear lest our old nature will again obtain the supremacy, that the enemy shall devise some snare whereby we shall again become his captives." {Mar 227.2}

People have asked if we are suppose to be totally sinless by the time Jesus gets here. If I read Rev. 22:11 correctly it says yes, but what about those who died before becoming sinless? Will they see Jesus? Will they go to heaven?

How do we become sinless?

[BobRyan]

Read the end of Rev 15 -- Christ's work as Mediator in the Sanctuary in heaven ends just before the Plagues of Rev 16 according to the text.

The judgment of Dan 7 will have ended by that point. "Let him who is righteous be righteous still" pronounced.

The WAY that the saints are enabled to stand before a Holy God without an intercessor at the point in time -- is through the Latter Rain experience -- God the Holy Spirit taking them through that time.

Which means that at the end of time - everything depends on your receiving the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Get that -- and everything else will just take care of itself!

in Christ,

Bob

[LifeHiscost]

Read the end of Rev 15 -- Christ's work as Mediator in the Sanctuary in heaven ends just before the Plagues of Rev 16 according to the text.

The judgment of Dan 7 will have ended by that point. "Let him who is righteous be righteous still" pronounced.

The WAY that the saints are enabled to stand before a Holy God without an intercessor at the point in time -- is through the Latter Rain experience -- God the Holy Spirit taking them through that time.

Which means that at the end of time - everything depends on your receiving the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Get that -- and everything else will just take care of itself!

in Christ,

Bob

"But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ" Ephesians 4:15 KJV

We are encouraged to speak the truth in love. How can we do that and fail to admit we have sinful characters on this side of translation?

"But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." John 8:7 NIV

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:8 KJV

A person without sin needs no Mediator or Saviour. To see ourselves sinless before our change would mean we would have to deny the truthfulness of the Word, at least to the extent of the scripture just above. I do not find safety in discounting the Word as untruthful.

"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." 1 Cor 15:15:50-53 NKJV

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Philippians 2:13 KJV

"Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid or terrified because of them, for the LORD your God goes with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you." Deuteronomy 31:6 NIV

"Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." Hebrews 13:5 KJV

Blessings!

[Gerr]

Quote:

"... those who are waiting to behold a magical change in their characters without determined effort on their part to overcome sin, will be disappointed. We have no reason to fear while looking to Jesus, no reason to doubt but that He is able to save to the uttermost all that come unto Him; but we may constantly fear lest our old nature will again obtain the supremacy, that the enemy shall devise some snare whereby we shall again become his captives." {Mar 227.2}

People have asked if we are suppose to be totally sinless by the time Jesus gets here. If I read Rev. 22:11 correctly it says yes, but what about those who died before becoming sinless? Will they see Jesus? Will they go to heaven?

How do we become sinless?

We cannot be sinless because we have already sinned. But according to the Apostle John, we can by grace, STOP sinning. Paul also says that when we walk in the Spirit, we will stop sinning.

Gerry

[olger]

Why continue any longer in sin? What has it done for you?

[Woody]

Quote:

we can by grace, STOP sinning

Then His grace must not amount to much. For everyone is still sinning. And don't tell me that we all ain't askin Him to do it. Bottom line then is that HE ain't doin it. The answer IS ... The Great Controversy. I would recommend all to read the book by that title. It will tell you a lot about why there is sin in the believers.

Oh ... and the answer to the topic of this thread is ...

AFTER He comes.

[olger]

True Gerry.

Provision has been made for us to render obedience to the Lord. It starts with God's gift to humanity -- the power of choice.

People have long questioned the power of choice by suggesting that God should have made us more robotic. The Great Controversy refutes this suggestion thoroughly, by exposing the freedom to choose given each of us.

Now, the suggestion that God will turn us into robots at the Second Coming (glorification) is merely an extension of the age-old error regarding creation & free will. If Go did not make us robots then, He certainly will not do it at His second Coming. God will not chain rebels to His side.

regards,

oG

[Woody]

I would like for those who believe in being 'sinless' ... to tell us WHY they are still sinnin. Why are they not letting God change them and what are the consequences of not beimg sinless?

[Stan]

I have never met one who claimed to be sinless (that was 'normal') I have met people who had that for a goal. More Christian Excellance than perfection..

[olger]

Much agreed. "Now unto Him who IS ABLE to keep you from falling."

God will not chain rebels to His side.

[Woody]

I have never met one who claimed to be sinless (that was 'normal') I have met people who had that for a goal. More Christian Excellance than perfection..

Good Comments Stan. I agree. The goal is good. Even the business sector strives for excellence. It's a good goal. But even those in business will tell you that while you strive for excellence ... you will be disappointed if you EXPECT perfection.

[Woody]

Much agreed. "Now unto Him who IS ABLE to keep you from falling."

The key here is ABLE. I would dare not question the abilities of God. He IS able. He's able . He's able. I know He's able.

But the point IS ... we are sinners and live in a sinful world. While HE is able ... We are NOT always able. And we just don't let Him. If we were living in Heaven or some place where there was no sin ... we would be happy to let Him. But no ... our address is planet Earth.

If I keep the whole law but have not love, I am simply a resounding gong or clanging cymbal with no meaning but instead a loud confusing noise.

[Lineman]

But the point IS ... we are sinners and live in a sinful world. While HE is able ... We are NOT always able. And we just don't let Him. If we were living in Heaven or some place where there was no sin ... we would be happy to let Him. But no ... our address is planet Earth.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: olger

Much agreed. "Now unto Him who IS ABLE to keep you from falling."

The key here is ABLE. I would dare not question the abilities of God. He IS able. He's able . He's able. I know He's able.

But the point IS ... we are sinners and live in a sinful world. While HE is able ... We are NOT always able. And we just don't let Him. If we were living in Heaven or some place where there was no sin ... we would be happy to let Him. But no ... our address is planet Earth.

If I keep the whole law but have not love, I am simply a resounding gong or clanging cymbal with no meaning but instead a loud confusing noise.

I used to have the dilemma you have. Until you accept to Biblical proposition that there is a wide gulf between intentional/deliberate/willful/premeditated sin and unintentional/unwillful/unpremeditated sin, you will stumble on this point. The former IS possible even in this life, the other is NOT possible while we are in this body. The promise is very clear to me: [color:red]"No one who ABIDES in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him....No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother." 1 Jn 3:6,9,10 ESV

"No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains in communion with and in obedience to Him - deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] commits (practices) sin. No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him [recognized, perceived or understood Him, or has had an experiential acquaintance with Him]. Amp.

As someone already quoted, if/when we abide with Him, He is "able to keep us from falling." It's when we neglect that connection, that abiding, that we become easy prey.

Gerry

PS: It is NOT possible to keep the whole law without love.

[LifeHiscost]

It definately is not a magical change. And the Word does not say the change is to the corrupt, but is to the corruptible. Those who trust in the promises of God are not corrupt, as they are kept by the presence of the welcomed Holy Spirit through the grace of Jesus. Our determined effort to overcome sin is not what saves us. It is the claiming of the enabling power of the Holy Spirit, which is easy to do.

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Philippians 2:13 KJV

"For My yoke is wholesome (useful, good--not harsh, hard, sharp, or pressing, but comfortable, gracious, and pleasant), and My burden is light and easy to be borne." Matthew 11:30 AMP

"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light." Matt 11:29,30 NASB Emphasis theirs LHC

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

We cannot be sinless because we have already sinned. But according to the Apostle John, we can by grace, STOP sinning. Paul also says that when we walk in the Spirit, we will stop sinning.

Gerry [/quote']

[LifeHiscost]

Much agreed. "Now unto Him who IS ABLE to keep you from falling."

God will not chain rebels to His side.

No, however He will live His life in you when invited.

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Philippians 2:13 KJV

We have no promise that this corruptible human won't act corruptly this side of translation. However to give one's life to Jesus means it is His righteousness which prevails, not ours.

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Galatians 2:20 KJV

"My soul shall make her boast in the LORD: the humble shall hear thereof, and be glad." Psalm 34:2 KJV

"...but let him who boasts boast about this: that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight," declares the LORD." Jeremiah 9:24 NIV

"Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord." 1 Corinthians 1:31 NIV

Blessings!

[Tammy]

True Gerry.

Provision has been made for us to render obedience to the Lord. It starts with God's gift to humanity -- the power of choice.

People have long questioned the power of choice by suggesting that God should have made us more robotic. The Great Controversy refutes this suggestion thoroughly, by exposing the freedom to choose given each of us.

Now, the suggestion that God will turn us into robots at the Second Coming (glorification) is merely an extension of the age-old error regarding creation & free will. If Go did not make us robots then, He certainly will not do it at His second Coming. God will not chain rebels to His side.

regards,

oG

[LifeHiscost]

[John317]

Originally Posted By: olger

Much agreed. "Now unto Him who IS ABLE to keep you from falling."

The key here is ABLE. I would dare not question the abilities of God. He IS able. He's able . He's able. I know He's able.

But the point IS ... we are sinners and live in a sinful world. While HE is able ... We are NOT always able. And we just don't let Him....

Are you saying that no one "lets Him"?

No one has ever let him?

How do you know that no one is letting Him?

The Bible says we walk by faith, not by sight. Does it really matter if you can tell whether anyone else is letting him? All that matters is what each of us does individually. We can't look to others. None of us can tell God, "But all those other people disobeyed you too." Try that on the officer who gives you a speeding ticket. Won't work, and it won't work with God either. God doesn't grade on the curve. We're judged as if we were the only person alive, not according to what someone else did.

If no one ever lets him, I'm afraid we will continue in this world, because Christ won't come for a church who is not letting him.

What is going to cause the change?

[rush4hire]

You can't be sinless, because there are sins on the record of your life. But theoretically, it's possible to keep so busy doing the Lord's work so you don't have opportunity to sin:

[color:#BF0000]Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to [fulfil] the lusts [thereof].

You would also be working in close cooperation with angels of God, so devils can't come near to entice you to sin. Like Job:

[color:#BF0000]Job 1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him..?

The light of the loud cry message of Revelation 18, the final message for this earth, will be so powerful, it's bearers will get to the point where they are not able to sin. This is the seal of God.

This is preparation for translation. These will stand without a Mediator through the 7 last plagues and for 2 weeks prior.

[color:#BF0000]Rev. 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

[olger]

Good points men.

It isn't rational or accurate to take the lowest experience and proclaim it as normative. The old covenant failed because it had faulty promises (man's response). It is degrading to divinity to suggest that the second (better) covenant is also based on faulty promises. We have the Holy spirit in the New Covenant and the law written on the heart in love.

[olger]

It is written "Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh."

[LifeHiscost]

It is written "Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh."

Our Father would never have counseled thus had He not been willing to give the enabling power. If we haven't experienced the power yet, the next best thing to do, IMHO, is to ask for the faith to believe His promises.

"Keep on asking and it will be given you; keep on seeking and you will find; keep on knocking [reverently] and [the door] will be opened to you.

For everyone who keeps on asking receives; and he who keeps on seeking finds; and to him who keeps on knocking, [the door] will be opened." Matt 7:7-9 AMP

Blessings!

[Guest truthseeker007]

"Keep on asking and it will be given you; keep on seeking and you will find; keep on knocking [reverently] and [the door] will be opened to you.

For everyone who keeps on asking receives; and he who keeps on seeking finds; and to him who keeps on knocking, [the door] will be opened." Matt 7:7-9 AMP

Hmmm i am searching for years now. How long does it take to prove that these promises are false?

[Woody]

TS ... It just takes us a long time to know that the answer to a prayer is NO.