Conflict vs Love, Conservative vs Liberal

[bygjymbo]

I've noticed in a bunch of threads that we have two "camps".

There are those who think that we should expose error and wrong doctrine, while others think that will turn off some new converts, and that we should only preach the love of Jesus.

Liberals think that the conservative view is "salvation by works", conservatives think that liberals are too...well...liberal.

I have a theory...I think we're ALL right. Here's some things to think about:

Quote:

Eph 4:11-13 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Quote:

1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

Read especially 1Corinthians 12 and then Ephesians 4 and see if I'm not onto something....

Personally, I love worshipping a God of such variety...

[carolaa]

OK, but some don't understand that "to everything there is a season..." Perhaps there is a time for each, but we need to be wise and sensitive to when that time is.

[Bravus]

Agreed: and I think to some extent progressives (I dislike the label 'liberal' for reasons I'll explain in another thread) need to be willing to be a little more combative, or at least to be willing to stand up for what they believe.

I guess I also disagree that conservatives are not about love - they are, they just define what it means to love differently.

But I agree that we underestimate the rich variety of our God. Look at birds. Look at tropical fish. Look at beetles. Do you think the God who handcrafted all that diversity wants us all to be the same?

[Gerr]

Quote:

I have a theory...I think we're ALL right. Here's some things to think about:

And I also have a theory that we're NOT ALL right. And here some things to think about also:

Quote:

[color:red]I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot.....So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked." Rev 3:15,17 ESV.

I know your tribulation & your poverty....and the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan." Rev 2:9 ESV

There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Prov 14:12 ESV

This is in no way shape or form a statement that I am the only right one or that everything I say is right.

Gerry

[carolaa]

We all need to look more to Jesus as our example.

[bygjymbo]

So where do you stand, Gerry? Which side of the fence won't get spewed??

Or maybe your Bible verses aren't about styles at all??

[bygjymbo]

And I'll edit my original post. It should read "I think all STYLES are right"

[Gerr]

Quote:

Personally, I love worshipping a God of such variety...

Agreed! But to what extent? Cain introduced a different variety of worship; it was rejected. Nadab & Abihu did the same, and they were toast!

Gerry

[John317]

Hi Bravus,

Could you name some well-known "progressives" in the Seventh-day Adventist church and contrast them with some whom you consider "conservatives" and explain why?

Putting Adventists in those categories is still not something I do.

[bygjymbo]

It's in reponse top the "Quackventists", "Club Adventist and the Jesuits" and the "Professor Walter J. Veith's Testimoney" threads (and others) that I started this post.

We have two clear opinions, at least how I see it. Both relate to the Gospel Commission...or if I can be clearer...what is the proper way to spread the knowledge of Jesus to others.

My point is that there are many right ways to do it. (and lot's of wrong ways too. But that's not what this post is about.)

We have an abundance of scriptural references and quotes from Ellen White favoring both sides.

God can use anything that we give Him.

[John317]

Do you believe the Forum is representative of the Adventist church?

[Woody]

Quote:

God can use anything that we give Him.

What He is after is our LOVE.

[bygjymbo]

John 3:17

Obviously, this is only my opinion...

To some extent, Yeah. There's really only two sides. God's and not God's.

In other respects, no. There are way more Adventists who don't speak English, or have access to a computer than post here. Can't even fathom what their walk with Christ is about in Zimbabwe or Shanghai or Iceland.

I guess the true answer is a resounding "I don't know".

What do you think??

[rush4hire]

There are those who think that we should expose error and wrong doctrine, while others think that will turn off some new converts, and that we should only preach the love of Jesus.

What does the Bible teach?

[color:#BF0000]Eph. 5:13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

So how do you know what is light? Because it exposes, or makes manifest, what is in darkness. If it does not do this, but covers for the "the unfruitful works of darkness", (Eph. 5:11), then it is not light.

If someone reads this verse, and sets out on a quest to find the people of God, they will be narrowing it down to groups that are dedicated to exposing error.

Concerning light in the darkness:

[color:#BF0000]2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

Are we told to expound this light of prophecy when we get together?

[color:#BF0000]1 Cor. 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

And does this put people off, or draw people to your church?

[color:#BF0000]1 Cor. 14:24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or [one] unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:

14:25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on [his] face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

So those who would rather have the light of God's Word, than cover for sin, will see that you have that light if you are prophesying, in your congregation.

[color:#BF0000]John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

So this kind of discussion, prophesying, leads people to Christ, not away from:

[color:#BF0000]Rev. 19:10 ..worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

[bygjymbo]

What He is after is our LOVE.

And He will get it too, Redwood.

The more I experience Him, the more ways I love Him, and the less fear I have.

I would die for Him. That's easy.

I LOVE to cooperate with Him. I like to see Him work through me and others. It amazes me always.

Keeping my mouth shut when I really don't want to...that's hard! :-)

[bygjymbo]

I agree with you 100%, Rush4Hire.

For me, fearlessness is Godliness. I'm a "dyed in the wool" conservative. The Bible says what it says. Period.

But I've seen people spew Bible verses and literal knowledge in others faces, and it even horrified me.

We have a group of "Shepherd's Rod" that sneak into our church and try to steal members. They can quote the Bible better than most of our members. it isn't the truth, but they don't know that.

I am involved in our "homeless ministry". I do most of the lifting and packing and organizing. I'm a big part of running it.

On the street, a homeless woman approached me in tears. She had just found out she had advanced breast cancer. Obviously, no money for treatment. She couldn't even afford toothpaste.

I was worthless to this woman. Thanks to God, there were others there who could comfort her and deal kindly with her. At that moment, my nature failed me badly.

It takes all kinds to make a kingdom. I'm just glad I'm part of it...

[rush4hire]

And I'll edit my original post. It should read "I think all STYLES are right"

[rush4hire]

I agree with you 100%, Rush4Hire.

For me, fearlessness is Godliness. I'm a "dyed in the wool" conservative. The Bible says what it says. Period.

But I've seen people spew Bible verses and literal knowledge in others faces, and it even horrified me.

We have a group of "Shepherd's Rod" that sneak into our church and try to steal members. They can quote the Bible better than most of our members. it isn't the truth, but they don't know that.

I am involved in our "homeless ministry". I do most of the lifting and packing and organizing. I'm a big part of running it.

On the street, a homeless woman approached me in tears. She had just found out she had advanced breast cancer. Obviously, no money for treatment. She couldn't even afford toothpaste.

I was worthless to this woman. Thanks to God, there were others there who could comfort her and deal kindly with her. At that moment, my nature failed me badly.

It takes all kinds to make a kingdom. I'm just glad I'm part of it...

I can read between the lines. I want to assure you that I have nothing to do with the Shepherd's Rod movement, and I'm all about humanitarian conquests, like helping homeless, starving, and sick people.

[color:#BF0000]James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world.

You have to keep yourself unspotted from the world through discernment and knowledge. And you need to help the less fortunate to show that you have compassion and mercy.

I used to go on and on about that. I was saying that Job's care for unfortunate people was what kept him so busy that he just never had opportunity to sin, since his youth. That's why God says he was "a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil", (Job 2:3), and that there was "none like him in the earth", (ibid).

[color:#BF0000] 29:12 Because I delivered the poor that cried, and the fatherless, and [him that had] none to help him.

29:13 The blessing of him that was ready to perish came upon me: and I caused the widow's heart to sing for joy.

29:14 I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment [was] as a robe and a diadem.

29:15 I was eyes to the blind, and feet [was] I to the lame.

29:16 I [was] a father to the poor: and the cause [which] I knew not I searched out.

29:17 And I brake the jaws of the wicked, and plucked the spoil out of his teeth.

I can't wait to meet Job. Interesting fellow...

[Bravus]

John317: I can't really list prominent SDAs who are progressive and conservative, because I don't keep in touch with the church hierarchy - it's just something that's irrelevant to me and my life. What I can say is that I meet people here with a range of different perspectives, and I meet people in my local church and among my friends and family with a similar range of perspectives. Any category system is useful rather than objectively true, and any category system will have flaws, but the progressive/conservative dichotomy is sometimes useful in conversation as a shorthand for describing different perspectives. I'm aware that it's more complex than that - by analogy with the political 'social conservative/fiscal liberal' or whatever brands, there are a large number of issues and people (including myself) don't simply choose a full set from Column A or Column B.

I hope we recognise, always, that:

(a) we can all learn from each other, and often more from those least like us - we already know what those like us know

( there is truth, and God holds it, but humans don't have full access to it because of our fallen nature. This means we need to be humble about the truth we hold and open to learning

[John317]

John317: I can't really list prominent SDAs who are progressive and conservative, because I don't keep in touch with the church hierarchy ....

I was thinking along the line of different SDA writers, etc.

I don't know how familiar you are with Seventh-day Adventist authors and theologians, etc.

For instance:

You have Alden Thompson and Doug Batchelor.

Clifford Goldstein and Graham Maxwell.

Also David Larson and Ralph Larson.

Would you consider any of those as progressives and any as conservatives?

Or maybe you have your own list.

I certainly agree with the whole notion of learning from each other and being open to new ways of looking at things.

[Joe_in_RP]

And then you have what some consider ultra conservatives. I know people who think Doug Batchelor is ultra conservative.

I think these labels are tools of the devil to cause division in God's people. What matters is faith. Faith is a deep word. As I am learning more about it I am less critical of others.

[olger]

Quote:

God can use anything that we give Him.

What He is after is our LOVE.

and our trust (Job 13:15; Psalm 2:12; 9:10; Hebrews 2:13)

and our heart (Proverbs 23:26

and our life (Psalm 63:6)

and our attention (Psalm 64:9; Hebrews 3:1)

and our obedience (Romans 1:5; 6:16; 2 Cor. 9:13; 1 Peter 1:2; 2 John 1:6)

regards,

oG

[Gerr]

And I'll edit my original post. It should read "I think all STYLES are right"

If you mean different styles of communicating the truth, then, YES, it would be as varied as there are people. And different people respond to different styles. My wife can't stand the delivery style of Steve Bohr (preaching on Mt 24) & the guy with horned rimmed glasses preaching on prophecy (both on 3ABN). I focus on their message and so ignore their delivery style, while my wife can't get past it. What works with one will be a turn off for another.

Oh, how we careful we need to be; and how we need the Holy Spirit to help us rich the heart!

Gerry

[phkrause]

I agree with your post, very good. My wife also has problems with minsters that shout, like many black minsters. Personaly I love listening to black minsters. I actually have no problem with any minsters deliverary. I think I enjoy many different approaches.

pk

[John317]

I think these labels are tools of the devil to cause division in God's people...

Agree about the use of the labels. He wants divisions at the very time that God wants us to draw closer together. God would have us give the trumpet a certain sound so people will understand the message clearly.

For instance, if people hear a Seventh-day Adventist evangelist say that we are living during the judgment and that God is calling people to obey His commandments, it causes confusion to hear other Seventh-day Adventists say those things aren't true.