Mormons and Gays

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Shane

...The dispute here is if the Biblical author was influenced by their society rather than inspired by God. It can't be both...

Why not?

I believe that the Biblical authors were all very much influenced by their society, environment, culture, language, fate, circumstances, heredity, family, mental physical and emotional limitations, experience, or lack thereof, - and were very much a product of all that. We all are....

Yes, we all are, of course. As far as the Bible's view of things is concerned, how do we separate the prophet's prejudices, say, against homosexuality, from God's view?

Is it possible, even likely, in your judgment, that what we read in Leviticus and Romans about homosexuality is not God's view but the views of that culture and of the writers?

Maybe the word of man and the word of God are so interrelated that we can't separate the two with any kind of certainty. Or can we?

What do you think?

[Taylor]

Originally Posted By: Shane

...The dispute here is if the Biblical author was influenced by their society rather than inspired by God. It can't be both...

Why not?

I believe that the Biblical authors were all very much influenced by their society, environment, culture, language, fate, circumstances, heredity, family, mental physical and emotional limitations, experience, or lack thereof, - and were very much a product of all that. We all are.

And despite all that, God still broke through to them in some way to motivate (inspire) them to include God in the picture and write it down. Some did so eloquently with great insight and wisdom(inspiration), others with great difficulty, unable to make complete sense of it, but were nonetheless used imperfectly by God (inspired) to accomplish His purposes. But they felt compelled (inspired) to seek after God and to write it down anyway and or to convey it to their own people.

And people are still today inspired by God in very similar ways, with similar results.

Tom

Of course they were influenced by their enviornment but I don't think that negates the truth of God's word. It might change the wording..whether it was said in more "eloquent" or "blunt" manner but the message didn't change.

[Dr. Shane]

Why not?

We are all influenced by our culture. My point is that if a prophet's culture influence overrules God's inspiration than what the prophet has written is not inspired. I think of Martin Luther for example. Much of what he wrote was inspired but some portions were not because of his culture overshadowing the inspiration of God.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

Why not?

Martin Luther... Much of what he wrote was inspired but some portions were not because of his culture overshadowing the inspiration of God.

I admire Luther very much and enjoy reading his works. The word "inspire" is used in different ways today. 2 Tim 3: 16 uses it to describe how the prophets wrote. I am wondering what you understand it to mean when used in reference to Martin Luther.

[Dr. Shane]

Bravus you might find this interesting what Ellen White had to say ...

Quote:

"Those who feared God were to think for themselves. They were no longer to leave other men to do their thinking. Their minds were no longer to be chained down to erroneous maxims, theories, and doctrines. Ignorance and vice, crime and violence, oppression in high places, must be unveiled. The Light of life had come to this world to shine amid the moral darkness. The gospel would now be proclaimed among the poor, the oppressed. Those in humble life would be given opportunity to understand the real qualifications necessary for entrance into the kingdom of God." TDG 31

Ellen White is teaching that we should read the Word of God for ourselves, think about it, meditate on it and follow it without seeking someone else to tell us what it means. She is not teaching that we should rely on our own intellect apart for God's Word.

[Dr. Shane]

I do not believe God spoke to Luther in visions or dreams but God certainly spoke to him through His Word and by that means each of us can be inspired.

[Bravus]

Do you believe all the Bible writers received their inspiration through visions and dreams?

[Dr. Shane]

We know some of them were eye witnesses. We know that God spoke directly with many of them like Moses, Joshua, Samuel, Nathan, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Danial, Hosea, Isaiah, Joel, Amos, Jonah, Habakkuk, Nahum, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi, Matthew, Mark, John, Peter Jude and Paul. Luke may have been writing completely based on what others told him. I am not sure but David and Solomon may have also received indirect divine communication. But for the most part I believe the Bible teaches most of the writers were in direct contact with God.

[rush4hire]

* genocide being commanded, extolled and rewarded

[rush4hire]

* literal creationism

How can someone confess that in the 2nd resurrection God will create billions of people from the dust of the earth, instantly, and can't create one man from the dust of the earth, instantly?

Those who believe in Evolution, usually believe in reincarnation, or some such thing. So the "Adventist Evolutionist", has a serious compatibility problem.

Then after the judgment, the whole earth has been cleansed by fire. Obviously there's no life left on earth. It's as barren as Venus. Then God creates a new heaven and a new earth, while the saints watch. Do you not understand that the new heaven and new earth will be created instantly, like in six literal days, and not over billions of years?

I've posed these questions a few times, and still no answer.

[Bravus]

I've answered, several times, that God *can* do whatever he wants. The question is whether he *did* create the earth that way, and if so why he went to so much effort to make it look as though he didn't.

[rush4hire]

if so why he went to so much effort to make it look as though he didn't.

[rush4hire]

The teaching that God sets up rulers, for example, implicating God in the setting up of Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot.

God already told us, over and over again, well ahead of time, that He would be allowing the Papacy to prosper.

[color:#BF0000]Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Daniel 8:12 ... and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practiced, and prospered.

Daniel 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practice, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

Daniel 11:36 ...and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished:

Rev. 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

God has a reason for doing this.

Hitler and Stalin where raised up by the Vatican, to unite Europe under the Papacy.

The messages are two, that I can see:

1. This wickedness is is an eternal reminder of the results of rebellion against God.

2. Life is not a guaranteed thing. You can die at any time. So, you better get right with God as soon as possible.

[rush4hire]

I read the Bible, and find a God of love - a God who defines himself as love - but yet a God who apparently ordered the murder of every man, woman, child and animal in a country simply so it could be taken over by his favorite nation.

[rush4hire]

God is above law. God precedes all law. The Ten Commandments were written for mankind. I don't believe that God is obligated to obey the law in the same way that we are.

God does not break His own law. The Bible does not teach such a thing. On the contrary:

[color:#BF0000]1 John 3:5 ...in him is no sin.

You're completely on your own with that statement.

Nor is God a murderer.

If you see an Arabian man with bombs strapped to him, going toward a group of people, then you can assume he intends to blow those people up. Let's say you happen to have a sniper rifle. If you take him out, you have saved those people's lives, and will get a medal. If not, then you would be guilty of murder, because you could have stopped it, but you chose to allow it.

In fact, if you where in a position to take him out, and you didn't, you could actually be charged as an accomplice, and sentenced to death. That would be condemnation, not martyrdom.

It's the same with God. Man killed himself when he did the very thing that God said will kill him. So, your life is a gift of grace.

If God would have allowed him to live, then man would have become an immortal sinner, and would have completely joined Satan in rebellion against God, to convert, or kill all of God's people in the whole Universe.

So God allowing man to die, is in defense of the rest of the Universe who love peace, and who know that Satan does not have their best interest at heart, but just wants power over them.

Why would God allow sin to take over? If He did that, then He would be a murderer.

[rush4hire]

Do you believe all the Bible writers received their inspiration through visions and dreams?

[color:#BF0000]2 Tim. 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God...

..and..

[color:#BF0000]2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.

It says they where moved by the Holy Ghost, not dreams and visions, necessarily. Dreams and visions is one way God shows people things. People who where not prophets also have dreams and visions, as we see in the Bible. A few Pharaohs, Nebuchadnezzar, Pilate's wife, Balaam, to name a few, offhand.

But the prophets, and scribes, who wrote the books of the Bible, got their information from their experience, and from people, and from many sources. They recorded history, how God would have done it, from what they knew about God.

Example of being moved by the Holy Ghost, to speak:

[color:#BF0000]Acts 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

Acts 4:31 ...and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

Acts 13:9 Then Saul, (who also [is called] Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,

13:10 And said, O full of all subtlety and all mischief, [thou] child of the devil, [thou] enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

1 Sam. 10:10 ...a company of prophets met him; and the spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them.

Notice: spirit ---> speaking

Nothing indicates they had visions. They didn't even write these things, but spoke. The scribe, who recorded the event would have been moved by the Holy Ghost to record it, I suppose. Some of these books probably took alot of research to write. In the gospels we have insider information that would have come from priests, soldier, and whoever else. Not from visions.